Pretty sad and shocking I have to say:
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-40555282 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-40555282[/url]
Sad? Yes. Shocking? Hardly - the Peak District is notorious for persecution of birds of prey by gamekeepers, so I'm not surprised they've no qualms about illegally killing badgers either. That said, it's good that this is getting mainstream media attention.
If you accidentally catch a badger in a snare legitimately set for a fox, you can shoot it if humane release isn't possible..
Not saying that's what happened in this case but that is what the law says.
Before the anti-snaring vitriol pours forth- when the League Against Cruel Sports wanted to catch foxes for a radio tracking study with Bristol Uni- that's how they caught them.
Likewise, the RSPB recently killed three Badgers under license to protect ground nesting birds.
I actually fully support action against illegal behaviour- it needlessly tarnishes the reputation of everyone involved with legal pest control but some of the naive hypocrisy behind the arguments is astonishing! (Not referring to this thread).
https://basc.org.uk/cop/snares-for-fox-control-in-england/
when the League Against Cruel Sports wanted to catch foxes for a radio tracking study with Bristol Uni- that's how they caught them.
This needs a bit more explanation. Why would they want to track foxes that had been injured by snares?
I think we need to differentiate between live cage traps and snares before we have any more misinterpretations.......
They wanted to monitor foxes for a study and snaring was the simplest and quickest solution to catch them. Foxes captured away from obstructions are perfectly unharmed. As long as they can't wrap around anything, they just tend to lie down.
The reason snares aren't a humane solution for the badger cull (though they would undoubtedly be the quickest and cheapest!) is because even on a run free from obstructions, they tend to dig a massive hole like the video. So you can't guarantee it won't hang itself.
Once an animal is caught in a 'catch alive' trap, you are responsible for its welfare and subject to all the strict legislation that entails.
[img] 
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Not my pic as I'm not brave enough to risk them escaping to fanny about with a camera but my friend took this last year.
One of the great things about snares is they are incredibly selective when used properly.
It's not hard to imagine how cruel a badly set snare can be but like many things, it's the application rather than the tool that's the problem.
The guy who releases the badger in the vid is probably more culpable for H+S crimes than cruelty ones.
That they went public with that pretty poor footage actually just proves how little evidence they had of any illegality occurring.
https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2016/july/fascinating-fox-work-in-the-avon-valley/
The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust are using snares to catch foxes for gps tracking in their current Lapwing predation study too.
The "Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust" are a pro-shooting lobby group.
Struggling to take someone's word on the subject without a pinch of salt when they use the handle "crosshair"... 😕
The scale of this and the use of snares show it to be deliberate illegal persecution. The net is closing on the lawless grouse moor owners and their constant illegal killing of wildlife.
Struggling to take someone's word on the subject without a pinch of salt when they use the handle "crosshair"...
How very tolerant and open minded of you 🙄
Perhaps someone who does this for a living and is proud of the high standards they set for themselves is exactly who you should be listening to ❓
The GWCT isn't a lobby group, it's a well respected research organisation.
Lapwings aren't even a quarry species....
TJ reaches a predictably emotion based outcry in total contrary to the evidence presented 😆
It's not hard to imagine how cruel a badly set snare can be but like many things, it's the application rather than the tool that's the problem.
Is this what your pic is meant to show? A fox that's been snared and has panicked and run around in a circle knocking over the crops until it's exhausted? That's pretty cruel.
I usually carry wire cutters on me - I'd have no hesitation at all in freeing that fox, and destroying any other snares I found.
Ok, I'm trolling, but only a little, and I reckon crosshair can take it...
That's arable, why trap (and kill?) that fox?
I'm not a fox expert, but I'm not sure they eat a lot of wheat...
It's a game shoot with a high regard for wildlife preservation. They also have a sheep flock.
A fox in a snare runs in a few circles trying to escape of course- that's why it's important to avoid obstacles and have two swivels. But it's 100% reliable to be much kinder than almost any other method of taking a fox- assuming your start from the viewpoint that in an over-pressured man made countryside like ours, some form of control is necessary (as the RSPB do for example).
Edit- I've never seen a fox exhausted in a snare. Some don't even lie down- they just sit there like a dog on a lead.
It's a game shoot with a high regard for wildlife preservation.
That's a tautology. Game shoots destroy wildlife and environments.
Some don't even lie down- they just sit there like a dog on a lead.
Because they're terrified. Do you really believe that a wild animal, if trapped, is quite happy to just sit there waiting for death?
The GWCT isn't a lobby group, it's a well respected research organisation.
Pull the other one, it's got calls for raptor 'management' near driven grouse-shoot areas on it.
Apparently it will help avoid 'conflict', which is its convenient term for keepers illegally killing endangered raptors, and it's fine to have a artificial scarcity of these on upland grouse-shooting areas.
For an unbiased research group, an awful lot of their conclusions appear to favour the interests of one particular industry.
https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/position-statements/
As for the badger issue, why do they feel the need to wear masks if they are legally humanely despatching them?
EDIT: As an aside, MTBers have their part to play in helping estates stay within the law on this issue. We are one of the biggest groups using tracks which criss cross shooting estates. If you see a dead raptor, a pole trap, take pictures, record the location and report it to the RSPB or the group in the OP.
Ben- we are a rented shoot. The farm we rent ground from is an intensive dairy with some arable.
I spend hours and hours in meetings pleading for odd corners of weeds, brambles and hedgerows to be left intact for the benefit of game and wildlife.
Modern intensive farming is not compatible with wildlife preservation. Thankfully game shooting is. Gamekeepers do the same job an RSPB warden does with the difference being it's financially self supporting.
If you happen across a fox in a snare- you will see exactly what I describe but I assure you it's true. A fox is clever- simple operant conditioning teaches it pretty quickly that the best course of action is not moving.
Same as foxes caught in cage traps. If your logic was true, they would dig at the mesh until they bled. They don't- the lay there, often curled up asleep.
MTBers have their part to play in helping estates stay within the law on this issue. We are one of the biggest groups using tracks which criss cross shooting estates. If you see a dead raptor, a pole trap, take pictures, record the location and report it to the RSPB or the group in the OP
That's a very interesting point - although if I'm correct (based on other threads on this forum) some of the local MTB advocacy groups are in discussion with this very landowner about increasing MTB access, which might present a conflict of interest ...
The farm we rent ground from is an intensive dairy with some arable.
So not chickens or somewhere where there might be a need to actually control foxes? Instead you're introducing game, which people shoot for the pleasure of killing something, and to protect the game you kill foxes which are just doing what foxes do.
Modern intensive farming is not compatible with wildlife preservation. Thankfully game shooting is.
No. At best it is compatible with preservation of some wildlife.
There is also the question about what impact all those pheasants (in particular) being released has on the native environment.
It should go without saying. Willful cruelty or illegal persecution has no part in the modern world. Take photos and ring 101 (not some animal rights extremist group).
With regards to the masks- I only watched it on my phone but they looked like beanies rather than balaclava's?
A face veil is standard issue for a wild-bird / upland Gamekeeper. The human face and hands are the biggest giveaway when you're sat up for a Crow or a Fox.
No. At best it is compatible with preservation of some wildlife.
There is also the question about what impact all those pheasants (in particular) being released has on the native environment.
*some* being a lot of corvids, badgers and very little else!
The GWCT have researched that point and issue guidelines for stocking densities. Seeing as they are supplementary fed for their entire lives, the positive boost they bring in the form of tons of prey for Raptors more than outweighs any ecological downsides.
And the food put out for pheasants helps cover the gap left in the countryside by sterile stubble and winter crops.
That's a very interesting point - although if I'm correct (based on other threads on this forum) some of the local MTB advocacy groups are in discussion with this very landowner about increasing MTB access, which might present a conflict of interest ...
If anything, a keeper or landowner with dubious 'management' strategies would prefer public access to be along predictable channels. TBH if they had something to hide, they would have ample opportunity to do it away from permissive ROWs. CROW Act has helped in this regard, eg:
These were placed in the back of beyond but found by a random bogtrotting walker.
onGamekeepers do the same job an RSPB warden does
Really? Can't say I have ever seen a RSPB warden persecute raptors by poison, trapping or shooting.
Lol! No, they ring a contractor and get them to do the dirty work for them
Lots of part time keepers make good money doing predator control for the RSPB- sadly, they have to sign gagging orders!
As I say- I don't condone illegal activity so have no need to rise to the crux of your post.
they would have ample opportunity to do it away from permissive ROWs. CROW Act has helped in this regard
True, much of the land in under discussion here is subject to regular temporary closure (with the exception of PRoW)
[url= http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/762741/Derwent-Hallam-2017.pdf ]http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/762741/Derwent-Hallam-2017.pdf[/url]
crosshair - MemberHow very tolerant and open minded of you
It was a joke.
Perhaps someone who does this for a living and is proud of the high standards they set for themselves is exactly who you should be listening to
Perhaps, but as I don't trust people with no sense of humour I thought I'd investigate your sources.
CraigW was bang on the money. 🙂
*some* being a lot of corvids, badgers and very little else!
badgers? I hope you have made a mistake there.
Also by very little else you mean weasels, stoats, pine martins and so on? Plus all the mountain hares killed in Scotland.
Then there are the accidental catches.
Then we get into the illegal killings of raptors. Its amazing how unreliable satellite tags are in the UK isnt it? Same models work fine elsewhere but soon as they get near shooting territory they mysteriously malfunction.
The GWCT have researched that point and issue guidelines for stocking densities.
Actually even they state there is more research needed. Also do you really think if they found the safe limit was way, way lower than what would make a profitable shoot the evidence wouldnt be massaged somewhat?
Dissonance- that post was in response to the wildlife that would flourish on a dairy-prairie with no shoot- Badgers, Corvids and cows!!
Do you mean like the tagged Hen harriers that consistently turn back up despite 'certainly' being destroyed?
Perhaps they should get an independent survey done on a few wind farms- you may turn up the radio trackers you are looking for 😉 (Notice how they leave blank spaces around wind farms when showing so called Harrier traces!)
The investment in thinning, coppicing and other otherwise neglected habitat management outweighs any marginal impact of pheasant release sites in my experience.
I lifted my wire on the first two pens this week after four weeks- once the grass grows back you wouldn't know they had been there.
The biggest destroyer of native ground flora on our estate is bloody Muntjac!
Here's an example of how things work on Arkengarthdale Estate...
I'll wager that the gamey in question is the same one I reported to the police for a public order offence when he abused me for no reason other than being on The Moresdale Road with a bike.
that post was in response to the wildlife that would flourish on a dairy-prairie with no shoot
Apologies I didnt get the context you were putting it in.
Do you mean like the tagged Hen harriers that consistently turn back up despite 'certainly' being destroyed?
Apart from they dont. Those where the tags fail unexpected dont tend to turn up. The, much rarer, cases where a tag looks to be failing are noted as such and in those cases there is a good chance of seeing the bird again.
Perhaps they should get an independent survey done on a few wind farms
Oh dear you are going for the full blown shooters loon fantasies here.
I am always confused by this. I thought any shooters who were actually responsible and cared about wildlife would be wanting to separate themselves from the line em up and shoot em down crowd?
The investment in thinning, coppicing and other otherwise neglected habitat management outweighs any marginal impact of pheasant release sites in my experience.
How do you set up the test sites and do comparisons? Or could there be some human bias creeping in?
Personally I find volunteering to maintain woodlands can help some species although there is always that question whether you are helping some at the expense of others.
We have 1000 acres of woodland and perhaps 30acres given over to pheasant pens. Without the shoot there would have been no financial incentive to start the 8yr regeneration programme I've pushed hard for.
Woodlands planted under Woodland Grant schemes were always designed to be regularly thinned. When you don't, the canopy closes over and you lose the light. Lose the light and you lose the ground cover. Lose that and diversity is gone.
My friend runs a bird of prey rehab centre in Gibraltar and the wind turbines in Spain on the migration routes are devastating the Eagle populations. They have to clear the carcasses away as they stink so much!
There is a cover up going on- the wind farm companies donate heavily to the RSPB to the tune of literally millions of pounds. I wonder why!?!
Agree about the turbines.
And the muntjac.
Any mixy near you crosshair?
The only places I see mixy rabbits these days are managed shooting land.
And had several interesting conversations with landowners which suggest this might not be a coincidence.
Good and bad everywhere, c'est la vie.
I am an ecologist, dealing mainly with ornithology. I work on behalf of wind farm developers, and spend a lot of time liaising with RSPB.
Can you please explain what you mean by a cover up? What you've said could bring the work of my colleagues and I into disrepute, hence my keenness to understand.
"Wind turbines in Spain" is a sweeping generalisation. If you stick any obstacle on a migration route for birds without thought you will cause problems. Our planning system operates to a higher degree of stringency. SNH have clear guidance on bird survey programmes required for wind farm EIA.
Wind turbines kill what? 100-300 birds per year each?
How can a charity supposed to be promoting birds keep a straight face when endorsing ANY wind farm?
Especially given the fact they recieve funding from green energy companies?
How come every data set I've ever seen of Hen Harriers GPS traces has the area around wind farms redacted?
There's not much more to it than that sadly. I just get peeved at a few hundred gamekeepers being held responsible for a problem that's a) debatably not even a net problem at all and b) far less significant than the huge white elephants in the room slashing our migratory birds from the sky?
From speaking to gamekeepers here in Norfolk, they've stated the same, that the large windfarms here have effected larger bird populations, not massively but there have been issues, they said that the turbines are of course situated where there is a "clean" wind currents and that these in turn are want large raptors especially tend to use as "highways" putting them in contact with the turbines, the smaller birds don't tend to use them and tend to be able to avoid them, whereas the larger birds are a bit slower to react.
Wasn't there a big news story a few years back about Golden Eagle having been killed by turbine in full view of twitchers?
In Defence of many game keepers, many do have a positive effect on ecology, it is part of their role, they have to look after woodland, field boundaries and hedgerows and the game birds need this cover.
I have never had an issue with shooting here, if the birds are consumed, i often eat duck, pheasant and other birds.
I do have issue with some of the large shoots here where 100's of birds are taken purely for sport and then buried and do have issue with some of the lazy gamekeeping where they have feeders near the roads to make their jobs easier, i don't know anyone here who has not damaged car avoiding birds or having hit them.
Another big thing is here is that if you look at North Norfolk countryside compared to across in the in Lincs and West Norfolk, field sizes here are small, lots of tree cover and every field has hedge boundaries, we are overrunning with wildlife. Compare it to Lincolnshire and the huge field sizes and intensive agriculture, a lot of this came from historical hunting and game keeping and the fact that the land was divided into these estates.
If you're referring to hen harriers, there is a huge problem from what I can see. There's only 4 pairs left in England, and a enough suitable habitat to support 50 times that. There's about 450 pairs in Scotland. In England, there are far less wind farms compared to Scotland. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that something else is responsible for the decline of this species in England.
You're just scapegoating wind farms by the sounds of it.
I'm not at all anti landowner/gamekeeper by the way, or pro wind at any cost, I just can't abide the spouting of lies to substantiate a position.
I don't think hen harrier numbers have been effected by turbines, from the way it was described to me it was larger raptors than harriers (we have had hen harriers here in winter). I was told that bats are susceptible to, due to pressure changes caused by the turbine.
There have definitely been recorded cases of red kites killed here by turbines, again very small numbers, but clear photographic evidence in the local paper and comments from RSPB on the article.
But i do think the numbers killed are nothing compared to other threats, a lot more are killed by windows..
i am all for wind and solar power, we have huge wind farms off the coast here now and many farms have their own turbines and solar panels. Solar "farms" seem to be on the increase and was proud that Norfolk now produces more renewable electricity then it total electricity consumption.
So why aren't the Welsh Uplands and the Isle of Man teeming with Hen Harriers then? Plenty of habitat and no driven grouse shooting there?
Yeah, bats definitely needs more work, likely to be an under reported issue. I've stuck bat detectors on boats and picked them up in the middle of the North Sea, so potentially a problem offshore too.
Sadly bird collisions do happen - I think it's larger, soaring birds that tend to be particularly susceptible. There were a bunch of white-tailed eagles killed at Smola in Norway too, as well as the many, many casualties in Spain. But these sort of mass casualty events I have no knowledge of occurring in the UK.
Crosshair, there's about 35 pairs of hen harriers in Wales , which is nearly 10 times the number there are in England.
The Isle of Man has something like 20 pairs, down from about 50 pairs in 2010 or so. Interestingly though they've declined from maybe double this number recently. No persecution or wind farms involved it would seem. So land use, or perhaps prey availability could be the issue.
Why do you think there are so few pairs in England compared to Wales, Scotland and the IoM?
The GPS tracks you mentioned before - is there a way that can I see them?
Plenty of habitat and no driven grouse shooting there?
prey fluctuation cycles will have an impact on them as will a bad winter etc. However a major problem is they move around a lot when young. If they head to the wrong part of the UK there is a very good chance they wont come back. Its part of why there is objections to the brood relocation plans.
There is no serious doubt that persecution is having a serious effect on hen harriers in the UK. Its trumpian levels of false news to try and blame wind farms etc instead.
I do like how you throw, erronous, accusations at the RSPB whilst staunchly quoting the GWCT as some sort of unbiased authority. Surely you should be treating them with equal or more scepticism given their far greater dependency on certain lobby groups.
I'll try and get some links when I get home.
I don't think the population predictions are accurate for a start. It's all a bit 'shoulda woulda coulda'.
I believe illegal persecution in this country does play a part of course- the tendency for Hen Harriers to establish colonies means they can decimate local grouse populations in short order. Yet they wouldn't be there in the first place without the prey-rich habitat which wouldn't be there without the money from driven grouse shooting.
Condemnation of the problem without simultaneously recognising the benefits just drives the problem even further underground.
Then there is persecution and wind farms abroad on the migration routes. This could explain the Isle of Man situation.
The wind Turbine problem over here is the shady grey area where nobody is providing any data. If anyone can give me links to mortality figures for UK wind farms I would be fascinated to read them. I did hear that only carcasses at the base of the turbine are counted 😆
So the wingless casualty hopping around 100m downwind wouldn't be recorded!
And then there is the accuracy of the nest counts. Perhaps estates need to be more proactive in highlighting their breeding successes. I just don't believe the 3 pairs in England figure. I don't know where you would start in getting anywhere close to an accurate measure of that- I'd be interested to know the protocol.
And ultimately there's the stark reality that we are a small outlying fringe of their worldwide range. As our population increases, perhaps we're just not able to support them any more with or without driven grouse shooting (and far more able to with!).
crosshair - MemberHow come every data set I've ever seen of Hen Harriers GPS traces has the area around wind farms redacted?
1) evidence?
2) not many windfarms in the peak district (or many of England's hilly areas)
You don't believe the population estimates, and state also that you do not know how they are calculated? There are ranges to 95% confidence intervals available.
Your claim that harriers would not be present without grouse moors I do not agree with. See the book "The Hen Harrier" from 1977. The harriers where I work eat meadow pipits and field voles!
Hen harriers do not live in 'colonies'. They live in pairs during the breeding season, though the Orkney population (from which all UK birds are descended) are polygamous, with the male having several females (but not in the same location).
They also do not migrate - most birds in the UK are permanent residents, though birds can move a long way to find territory.
As a result I am unclear about what you mean by the IoM situation.
With regard collisions in Scotland that I know of - there's a single wind farm which had 3 collisions in the first 18 months of operation. No record of any collisions anywhere else since. Not to say there hasn't been any, but I don't think they're susceptible to collision compared to some birds. They hunt/forage at low level.
The point about range I would agree with, so its imperative that efforts are made to prevent the range from contracting.
I didn't say they wouldn't exist without Grouse 😉 I don't know any other mechanism to provide enough suitable habitat?
Within the context of a 10,000 acre Grouse Moor, beat I think 'Colony' would be a fair description of a male Hen Harrier with six dependant females and attendant broods! To say otherwise is mere semantics.
They flit back and forwards to mainland Europe with impunity. I don't think it's unreasonable to describe a Scottish bird over wintering in Portugal as migrating! He's certainly opened himself up to a few more threats than a Gamekeeper or two 😉
Whilst they hunt at low level, they certainly don't stay at low level. Even their hunting height can be high enough to be struck by a wind turbine blade. I've seen a male soaring over one of the parachute drop zones on Salisbury Plain until he went out of sight with the naked eye.
Another consideration- with Mustelid and Badger populations booming and spreading, I also don't think it's a coincidence that the one species of bird of prey struggling to recover is the one nesting and roosting on the ground.
The burgeoning Buzzard and Kite population probably doesn't help either.
Don Scott: My colleague Philip McHaffie and I have purposely monitored an operational wind farm site in County Antrim for three consecutive winters 2005/06, 2006/07 and 2007/08, to assess whether collision mortality is an issue for Hen Harriers. During our routine visits over this period, we have found the remains of 8 Hooded Crows, 6 Ravens and a Common Buzzard that had been killed by the turbines rotor blades. Then on 13th January 2007, we found the remains of an adult male Hen Harrier, below one of the more southerly turbines which had not been present during our last visit on 10th December 2006 - its right wing lay about 4m from the body! [b]This serious incident was reported to conservation organisations here and to several consultants, both here and in Scotland, who specifically monitor wind farms for the companies who want to erect them. Regrettably, and not surprisingly this bad news was not taken on board or acted upon by the conservation organisation here that are responsible for granting planning licences and shortly afterwards a nine turbine extension was built on the same area, without further consultation[/b]. One UK consultancy denied that no Hen Harriers in England, Scotland or Wales had ever been killed at a wind farm site – and as Northern Ireland is also part of the UK, they totally dismissed this incident for obvious reasons – the money factor! Wind farms sited in the wrong areas can have a devastating effect on birds of prey and seemingly Corvid species as well, and I totally oppose their erection in any part of Northern Ireland! They are an eyesore to look at and ruin beautiful and scenic areas by their presence.
http://europeanraptors.org/interviews/interview_hen_harrier_northern_ireland_don_scott.html
I also don't think it's a coincidence that the one species of bird of prey struggling to recover is the one nesting and roosting on the ground.
Various raptors are having issues. For example the "recovery" of Peregrines is actually more a case of Peregrines finding new ranges aka becoming urbanised.
Oddly enough their traditional ranges arent as good for them.
Wonder why that is?
The burgeoning Buzzard and Kite population probably doesn't help either.
Lucky then that those raptors dont tend to do to well on the grouse moors then isnt it?
Also dont care you want to give some cases where Buzzards and Kites have predated harriers would you?
Buzzard I can see a vague chance but kites?
I find it fascinating though how you continue to try and blame other things that persecution. Its especially good when you try and blame other animals that just happen to be on the list of animals blamed for predating gamebirds.
Please go back and read my posts again dissonance! The very first thing I mentioned was illegal persecution.
I was more pondering why they aren't thriving elsewhere.
Habitat degredation and lack of prey are probably significant- not a problem on managed Moor of course 😉
At no point did I say harriers don't get hit by turbines. But I don't think it causes level of difference we see between the population in England, and the populations elsewhere.
There are more red kites and more buzzards in Scotland than England. So how are there more hen harriers too?
I'll ask you again - where have the English hen harriers gone?
JNCC report on Hen Harrier - [url= http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/pdf/jncc441.pdf ]http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/pdf/jncc441.pdf[/url]
What's the ratio of suitable habitat in England to Scotland? Ignoring the pie in the sky dreams of them nesting in amongst dog walkers, ramblers and sheep, how much suitable habitat does that leave?
I'm actually asking as I can't believe there is even 10% of the well managed heather moorland in England that there is in Scotland?
Why on earth would anyone enjoy shooting a living thing though? Don't pull the 'how do you get your meat for dinner' argument because I'd wager a cabbage would fly quite well too.
Rather than talking about Scotland, lets talk about England, given that's the subject of the question.
GWCT reckon 80 pairs "sustainably"
[url] https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/672322/hen-harrier-fact-sheet-2017.pdf [/url]
RSPB seem to claim enough habitat for 300 pairs in England.
So reality is probably somewhere in between.
Currently four pairs. So where have they all gone?
The very first thing I mentioned was illegal persecution.
Actually it wasnt but heyho.
What you have been doing is providing the normal load of rubbish desperately trying to blame anything but the gamekeepers.
I find it a truly astounding position. If I had a well run shoot I would be absolutely livid at those who kill anything possibly perceived as a threat to those birds they want to kill themselves.
I'm not- I'm wondering why Hen Harriers aren't thriving away from potential illegal persecution if it were that simple.
I'm not an upland Gamekeeper. I don't rely on the subtle balance of weather, habitat, predation and Mother Nature to ensure I have a job next season.
I cannot and will not condone illegal behaviour but I similarly won't be a bigot and think it's the whole story when the evidence suggests otherwise.
Ehrob- When were they last here? What has the population trend been since the Second World War?
[i]I cannot and will not condone illegal behaviour but I similarly won't be a bigot and think it's the whole story when the evidence suggests otherwise.[/i]
Assessing constraints acting on hen harriers at national and regional levels and their influences on conservation status
16. The final part of the report considers, in turn, a range of constraints acting on hen harriers: agriculture, grazing, persecution, predation, the prey base, weather/climate change, wind farms, and woodland. Two main constraints were identified: persecution, and, in one Scottish region, prey shortages. Other constraints associated with the availability of nesting/ foraging habitat, and predation pressures may also be locally important.
17. Based on data from the RSPB wildlife crime investigations database, the density of hen harrier persecution incidents (recorded as confirmed and/or probable persecution) in Scotland is directly proportional to the percentage of a NHZ classed as muirburn (a surrogate for the distribution of grouse moor). There was also a significant negative relationship between the density of hen harrier persecution incidents and the proportion of successful nests in an NHZ.
18. In Scotland, there is strong evidence in five NHZs that illegal persecution is causing the failure of a majority of breeding attempts, leading to reduced occupancy and/or fewer successful nests. These are Central Highlands, Cairngorm Massif, Northeast Glens, Western Southern Uplands and Inner Solway, and Border Hills. If this persecution was halted or significantly reduced, more NHZs would achieve a favourable status, as would Scotland as a whole given the size of these populations.
The failure of the North Caithness and Orkney NHZ to achieve a favourable status appears to be related to food limitation during the early breeding season. This has been well researched and appears to be related to differences in prey abundance and the high frequency of polygyny among hen harriers on Orkney (persecution is evidently absent, and there are no foxes). The existence of a relationship between grazing intensity and harrier breeding success suggests that it may be possible to use habitat management to improve harrier productivity. Management measures were instigated in 2002 to encourage farmers to reduce sheep numbers in areas where harriers can forage. It has been suggested that even a relatively small uptake of this scheme by farmers should benefit the harrier population and bring it into a favourable conservation status.
20. There was circumstantial evidence that a shortage of foraging and/or nesting habitat may be a constraint in two NHZ: the Peatlands of Caithness and Sutherland, and the Northern Highlands. However, there is currently insufficient information to confirm the importance of this constraint or to recommend remedial actions.
21. Wales and Northern Ireland appear to be on track to achieve favourable status. However, England is unlikely to achieve this unless illegal persecution is considerably reduced. The productivity estimates of successful pairs in England, and observed changes in the Isle of Man population, suggest that recovery could be rapid.
Evidence points to persecution HTH.
If anyone can give me links to mortality figures for UK wind farms I would be fascinated to read them. I did hear that only carcasses at the base of the turbine are counted
So you hear about how the studies are conducted but these people wont tell you the results?
Meanwhile a wind farm killed 1 bird between 2005 and 2008 in NI?
Not a massive effect is it?
I do have issue with some of the large shoots here where 100's of birds are taken purely for sport and then buried
I would love to know where that countryside myth came from.
We used to shoot anything between 30 and 850 bird days.
If the price dropped very low as it used to now and again after Christmas we used to give game to charities local hospices etc etc...
I've delivered them myself back in the day, most shot game is delivered to game dealers for sale into the larger markets (export).
Some absolute shite is being talked on here, I not saying it NEVER happens but there was a MASSIVE change in culture in the gamekeeping community in the early ninties.
I know I was there!
I was taught the old school ways, pole trapping, illegal poisoning etc etc....Then there was some very high profile arrests, a few old school keepers were sent down and things changed much for the better in all cases.
I can only describe it as how drink driving has evolved in our culture.
That is how those old methods have gone. Yup there is still the odd knob as in all society but the main thrust is for the better.
In regards to old foxy I remember one foggy morning turning up to one of my release pen to spend the next 3 hours picking up dead birds I think the total came to around the 380 mark.
Now imagine this you have a big important work project the whole thing comes to around lets say 2000 A4 sheets of paper (no digital back up) then one morning I walk into your office and rip 380 sheets of the project randomly from you folder and throw it into the best paper shredder on the market.
How you feel that morning when you walk into that office is around the same feeling I got picking up those birds.
If your anti your anti it's your point of view and I respect that, just as you should respect other people enjoy doing other sporting interests.
sporting interests
This is the crux of it, killing artificially introduced animals for fun is as far from a 'sporting interest' as you could get (in my opinion, of course).
Go shoot some clay pigeons you wrong'uns.
Chapters 1-10 oif the shooters book of excuses here.
1) The Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust is a front for the shooting lobby - make no mistake about that. IIRC there is also a songbirds trust.
2) the RSPB do not collude with wind farms to hide mortality stats. Its all well published and researched and there is no significant issue with windfarms and birds in the UK. To suggest the RSPB is bribed to hide massive casualties is absurd. The RSPB have successfully intervened in at least one wind farm project to get it stopped.
3)To suggest that data on hen harriers is redacted around wind farm sites is ludicrous. Evidence for this absurd claim please
4) It is proven that there is no link between raptor deaths on any than a very occasional basis and windfarms. However there is a very strong link between grouse moors and raptor deaths over many dozens of cases.
There is no doubt at all that grouse shoots ( if not all of them) regularly kill protected wildlife. We are talking of hundreds of raptors each year killed by grouse shoots deliberately. The data does not lie. A 10 year survey of tagged birds shows almost all the unexpected casualties and there were many dozens of them happened around grouse moors. considering only a % are tagged then its certain many more were killed. This was no isolated rogues incidents - this is systemic killing which is why some areas have almost no eagles despite being good habitat and others have healthy populations.
The SNP are traditionally scared of upsetting the hunting shooting fishing lobby but they are now considering a licensing scheme - meaning kill raptors loose your license. simple as that.
Crosshair - those like you who work responsibly will have no issues under licensing. The criminals who kill raptors will finally have some decent sanction applied and the noose is tightening. A couple of gamekeepers have been jailed but we need to make their bosses pay.
My google fu has failed - been a long day - I can't find the report from the scottish government. Google may be your friend ( its not mine tonight) in finding it but it backs up what I have written above
A couple of gamekeepers have been jailed but we need to make their bosses pay.
This entirely but the trouble is that the 'bosses' are largely multi zillionaires who take a few £K fine from a back pocket.
esselgruntfuttock
thats the beauty of licensing. Take away the license - no more grouse shooting on that moor. Its the best we can do. That will cost them a lot of pride as well as money. Jail anyone with a direct hand in it
Its inexcusable. A couple of years ago I watched a pair of golden eagles over several days on the Monadliath. The following year both were killed.
Licensing coming and hopefully the end of raptor persecution by grouse shoots
Badllama - I am glad that your experience is that things have changed.
Link to the rspb evidence - what you need is the government report but I can't find it
Cross hair. You are wasting your time. STW is jammed full of those who get nasty with no proof of anything and have zero respect for the views of others despite preaching love and care for everything. They are usually spitting venom at those who dare have a view point that has a go at Corbin or supports us leaving the EU.
In this case I dare bet that there is a political bias that objects to field sports or that they just don't have a clue , basing their ideas on theory or propaganda. I wonder how many of them have seen a fox in a snare as in the pic. None of them I bet.
Never mind, you can't argue with those who don't understand.
I wonder if people care that the huge increase in cycling on Dowies in the FoD has reduced the local deer population from a gaurenteed siting of a handful every walk to bugger all?
Another good reason why the chat forumn should go.
Badgers, anyone?
(just a thought)
Badgers, anyone?(just a thought)
Get with the subject THM!.....oh wait.. 😉
Matt - you couldn't be more wrong. Morally I have no issue with blood sports so long as the catch is eaten. Deer. Pheasant. grouse etc.
The evidence to the scottish government on Raptor persecution is damming. Dozens of satellite tagged birds "disappearing" over grouse moors- the bodies never to be found with no signal from the tag. Whereas every one that died over other areas they found the tagged body.
The white tailed eagles nest in the Angus glens - the first on the east. The tree - in an unpublicised nest 5 miles from the road was chainsawed down. Complete wall of silence from the estate
This is not isolated incidents. This is dozens of tagged birds over years. If its dozens of tagged birds how many untagged?
You guys need to understand what is happening in some areas and on some estates. Unless your industry gets to grips with this and clamps down on the rogues instead of defending them you will have no industry.
Here you go - have a look at the data.
During 2014-15, 31 offences were recorded by Police Scotland data, and increase from 25 the previous year. Table 15 and Figure 7 show the numbers of recorded crimes for the period 2013-14 to 2014-15.
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/11/7270/5#Raptor_Persecution
Found it
41 of 130 young eagles
I'm right with TJ on all of this. I also have no problem with shooting for food but I do have a problem with the persecution of natural predators just to maintain a business.
It's not just the absentee landlords, the Channel Islands Holding Companies or whatever, too distant from Scottish Law, it's not just the vanished raptors, nor is it just the burning of the heather leading to the increased rainfall run-off, nor is it just the slaughter of mountain hares, and it's not only about the stink pits, and the long-illegal pole traps.
It's the whole, indefensible business which is being questioned.
Another good reason why the chat forumn should go.
He says whilst posting on the chat forum. the lack of self awareness is comical.