[Closed] Papal visit of Pope on Thursday, anyone going.............to protest

I see your point, are you then suggesting that the pope/CC has influence on the governments of predominantly non catholic countries in Sub-saharan Africa?

Why are we not seeing epidemics in South America?

I see the phillipines case, and apart from the poor reporting of statistics (extrapolating to 30,000 is like saying half of UK will be Elvis impersonators). The Philipines is one of the most Catholic countries in the world so Papal influence (the force) will be very strong there, yet there are very few case (under 150) cases.

To call it a 'spike' is just poor reporting of statistics, numbers that small are inherently unstable.

Charlie,

Sorry but I don;t think there is any source data that is referenced on the many eyes site. That's why I was asking. Thanks for what you've provided so far. I feel I'm half way to being able to verify that graph 🙂

Look at the link I provided above about the Philippines for an example.

I did and there is no suggestion in it that they are saying "If you promote condom use we will close all our orphanages and hospices". What they are saying in that article is that the Catholic Church thinks that scarce resources should be used in fighting tuberculosis, cancer and influenza.

Now you can disagree with their prioritization of one disease prevention mechanism over another, but to suggest they are responsible for deaths is pure simplistic hyperbole. After all, is the Philippines government killing people suffering from tuberculosis, cancer and influenza because they are not allocating resources there?

Mark, I'm looking at this
http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/visualizations/catholicism-and-hiv-aids

in explorer under the graph it has the line...

Data file: Catholicism's influence on HIV? Data source: NationMaster.com and CIA Handbook This data set
has not yet been rated

I see your point, are you then suggesting that the pope/CC has influence on the governments of predominantly non catholic countries in Sub-saharan Africa?

Yes

There are many examples of them pressurising governments and NGOs in this way - and they also dilute the harm reduction message.

Evangelical American churches do the same thing.

this makes it harder to distribute condoms and to get the harm reduction message across.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

Mefty - did you read the link?

Her efforts to promote condom use in the poor Southeast Asian nation have raised the ire of conservative Roman Catholic bishops opposed to artificial contraception, however, threatening to worsen the already shaky relations between the government and the church.

"I will continue to distribute condoms as a tool to create awareness on HIV/AIDS prevention," Cabral told Reuters, adding she would ask the government to fund the purchase of condoms for disease prevention rather than contraception.

[b]Cabral said the government has stopped allocating funds for condoms due to church pressure. [/b]Catholic bishops helped build opposition in Congress to block a reproductive health bill that they said promoted sex education and artificial contraceptives.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62335B20100304

In many countries, political and/or religious leaders
have made public statements associating condoms with sin or sexual promiscuity,
implying that people who use condoms lack the moral fortitude to abstain from sex until
marriage. In countries with significant Roman Catholic populations, governments
frequently bow to pressure from religious leaders to censor information about condoms
in school-based HIV/AIDS curricula or other HIV-prevention programs. The Holy
See, which represents the Vatican diplomatically and exerts considerable influence over
HIV/AIDS policy in many Roman Catholic countries, explicitly objects to condom use
and at times has publicly distorted scientific information about the effectiveness of
condoms against HIV.

In June 2001, UNAIDS director Peter Piot publicly asked the Roman Catholic Church
to stop opposing the use of condoms against AIDS, saying that “when priests preach
against contraception, they are committing a serious mistake which is costing human
lives.”48
Anti-condom messages promoted by senior Vatican officials can exert considerable
influence over national and regional Catholic bishops’ conferences. In 2003, for
example, the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) successfully
blocked legislation that would have authorized the use of national funds for condoms
and other contraceptive supplies.49 The CBCP issued in 1993 a statement that
condemned the promotion of condoms against HIV/AIDS as “tantamount to
condoning promiscuity and sexual permissiveness.” In 2004, the Croatian Bishop’s
Conference also opposed condom education efforts. In 2001 Catholic bishops from
southern Africa condemned the use of condoms to fight AIDS,50 a position they
reaffirmed in October of 2003.51 Bishops from southern Africa are not unanimous in
the position, however. Kevin Dowling, a bishop from South Africa, has been outspoken
in his position that opposition to condoms amounts to a death sentence for women,
particularly in Africa, who cannot insist on abstinence or fidelity

I've seen the phillipines article and responded to it above.

The Kenya / panorama one is relevant, but it is a series of case studies. It is not good data. We have no idea how representative the sample is.

I would suggest that the programme was somewhat biased, given that it was for TV. But i don't deny taht it happens. I very much doubt if it was widespread or that would have been reported.

Also for the purposes of this discussion it does not do to conflate the Evagelical churches and the Cathoilc

It is well reported - there are lots and lots of references to this if you want to see it.

\here is another

Mozambique's Roman Catholic archbishop has accused European condom manufacturers of deliberately infecting their products with HIV "in order to finish quickly the African people".

The archbishop of Maputo, Francisco Chimoio, told the BBC that he had specific information about a plot to kill off Africans. "I know that there are two countries in Europe ... making condoms with the virus, on purpose," he alleged. But he refused to name the countries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/27/aids.international

Its clear the Catholic church is using every weapon that it has to atop governments and NGOs promoting condom use and is deliberatly spreading false information to attempt to stop people using condoms.

yes i want to see.

Tue Oct 23, 2007
TEGUCIGALPA (Reuters) - The rapid spread in Latin America of the virus that causes AIDS is made worse by the Roman Catholic Church's stand against using condoms, a U.N. official said on Monday.
Some 1.7 million people across Latin America are infected with the HIV virus or full-blown AIDS, and the epidemic is spreading swiftly with up to 410,000 new cases in 2006, up from as many as 320,000 new cases in 2004, according the UN AIDS program, UNAIDS.
"In Latin America the use of condoms has been demonized, but if they were used in every relation I guarantee the epidemic would be resolved in the region," said Alberto Stella, the UNAIDS Coordinator for Honduras, Nicaragua and Costa Rica

I think thats enough to prove my point don't you?

I did read it and as I said it does not say that the Catholic Church are saying "If you promote condom use we will close all our orphanages and hospices". It does quote a person who disagrees with the Catholic Church's position saying pressure was applied but there is no suggestion what form that pressure took. No doubt pressure was applied by those of the opposite view as well.

As I said previously you are more than welcome to disagree with where the Catholic Church believes spending should be prioritized, and I would be minded to agree with you, but I believe that the hyperbole harms your case. Any party prioritizing one aspect of health spending over another can be accused of causing deaths to those they have chosen not to prioritize, but that is evidence of the dreadful nature of having to allocate scarce resources and no more.

Mefty - do read the quotes -

its not a case of prioritising one aspect of health spending over another. its applying pressure to stop a proven harm reduction technique that is very cheap.

[i] TandemJeremy - Member

Mefty - do read the quotes -

its not a case of prioritising one aspect of health spending over another. its applying pressure to stop a proven harm reduction technique that is very cheap. [/i]

It's stopping a proven harm reduction technique for [b]no discernible reason[/b] thats the issue. Seems to be mainly out of spite as there is no other reason to limit condom use

Logically, if the pope has a wet dream, does he have to quit being the pope for betraying the catholic faith?

Applying logic to a bunch of celibates who imagine they telepathically communicate with an invisible sky fairy,
who tells them, that being celibate makes them the perfect candidates for telling the world about family values and sexual health.
how about that for "betraying the catholic faith"?

No, that's just God moving in mysterious ways...

No, that would be Rhythm Methodists.
I came for the paypal reference and stayed for the spread of aids, oh, and shall we bring up the subjugation of half the human race? and the invention of purgatory to keep the cash flowing in?

-double post- sorry.

I think thats enough to prove my point don't you?

Not really,

You've cited the Phillipines, very high Catholic population / papal influence and low HIV incidence, same is true for Croatia, Honduras, Nicaragua and Croatia. The countries selected are those most susceptible to papal influence, and so it is unsurprisong that the church can exert pressure on public policy. But the data shows, tht in all these countries The incidence of HIV AIDS is very low.

I'm not deny the fact the the church is promoting dangerous practices. I agree they are, but it is clear that the overpopulation and incidence of HIV AIDS is not a reuslt of this, so there is some other, more dominant causal factor. And whilst we misplace our efforts blaming the pope, we neglect any investigation of the true causes, be it people or environmental, and the issues will continue. Do we want to solve the problems or not?

[img] [/img]

Does the rhythm method differ from the ending of a typical porn film? 😉

[i]Do we want to solve the problems or not? [/i]

Why not do both at the same time?

.

Do we want to solve the problems or not? [i]

Why not do both at the same time?

Fine, but the first step is to find the real culprit rather than focussing on the scapegoat

CharlieMungus - Member

Do we want to solve the problems or not? [i]

Why not do both at the same time?

Fine, but the first step is to find the real culprit rather than focussing on the scapegoat

The virus? Probably need some sort stem-cell research for that...

ah bugger, we are not allowed to do that either, apparently

Mr mumgus

so there is some other, more dominant causal factor.

He's just driven past my office.

Street was pretty quiet!

The virus? Probably need some sort stem-cell research for that...

ah bugger, we are not allowed to do that either, apparently

Yeah, much easier to dismiss rather than engage isn't it. Or is that really the only other causal factor you can think of for the spread of HIV/AIDS? Even if you really concentrate?

Watching the drive through in Edinburgh on BBC1.

Where do they find these morons to cheer and offer banalities to camera? One of the comments was "he's a great communicator" WTF he's in an armour plated cage.

On the plus side, there don't appear to be many people lining the streets.

CharlieMungus - Member

The virus? Probably need some sort stem-cell research for that...

ah bugger, we are not allowed to do that either, apparently

Yeah, much easier to dismiss rather than engage isn't it. Or is that really the only other causal factor you can think of for the spread of HIV/AIDS? Even if you really concentrate?

I was blatantly being flippant. Education and moving the communities out of poverty are the big thing, but perhaps a potential immunisation process would also be beneficial.

To be honest, i have no idea what you are trying to argue 🙂

he's just gone by my flat. the guy jogging beside him vocally giving the wonker sign is defo gonna be arrested soon

edit: one of the two fellas sitting with the pope was laughing, smiling, pointing and waving at him

I'm trying to argue, that if we keep on blaming the Pope, then we neglect to address the problem. If by some 'miracle' the church reversed its teaching on condoms we would see little change in the spread of HIV AIDS. The church is not causing the problem, we need to identify what is and address that.

He's just driven past my office.

Street was pretty quiet!

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/02/20757/53570

he's just gone by my flat. the guy jogging beside him vocally giving the wonker sign is defo gonna be arrested soon

I like that you can run alongisde the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God calling him a w@nker, yet you have to be careful about actually using the word in a cycling forum

In my mind it is quite simple. The Pope:

Refutes the theory of evolution
Refuses to allow women into the priesthood (wonder what he makes of the Queen!)
Is against abortion for rape victims
Is against contraception even for disease prevention
Is infallible (!?!?!???!?!)

You can get all tied up for days making sophisticated arguments back and forth on how many lives the church has saved or ended but anyone who considers this man (or his church) to be a moral authority is a f*cking idiot.

CharlieMungus - Member

I'm trying to argue, that if we keep on blaming the Pope, then we neglect to address the problem. If by some 'miracle' the church reversed its teaching on condoms we would see little change in the spread of HIV AIDS. The church is not causing the problem, we need to identify what is and address that.

I don't think we would see 'little change', but yes i basically agree

Torminalis - Member

In my mind it is quite simple. The Pope:

Refutes the theory of evolution
Refuses to allow women into the priesthood (wonder what he makes of the Queen!)
Is against abortion for rape victims
Is against contraception even for disease prevention
Is infallible (!?!?!???!?!)

You can get all tied up for days making sophisticated arguments back and forth on how many lives the church has saved or ended but anyone who considers this man (or his church) to be a moral authority is a f*cking idiot.

You could say that was religion in general 😉

[img] [/img]

The Pope visiting his usual haunts 😉

[img] [/img]

Torminalis - Member
In my mind it is quite simple. The Pope:

Refutes the theory of evolution
Refuses to allow women into the priesthood (wonder what he makes of the Queen!)
Is against abortion for rape victims
Is against contraception even for disease prevention
Is infallible (!?!?!???!?!)

You can get all tied up for days making sophisticated arguments back and forth on how many lives the church has saved or ended but anyone who considers this man (or his church) to be a moral authority is a f*cking idiot.

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should burn in hell.

Aside from that, you hit the nail square on the head 🙂

Popemobile looks like a mobile toilet.

The pope rides a Berlingo?

I spent a few hours in that strippers on my stag doo.... A particularly lovely show involving two Eastern Exoctic ladies, his popeness would be proud.

Fueled - Member

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should burn in hell.

I read the above as

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should bu[b]m[/b] in hell 🙂

Was there any need for that, Clubber?

has this been done yet?

yes it has ---removed

You forgot to mention that he considers gay people to be morally disordered and thinks they should burn in hell.

with the obvious exception of the gay cardinal he is here to beatify.

and with regard to infallibility? This is only when it is invoked, as it has been only once, ever. And that was about the assumption of Mary, which was already a strong belief in the church, in fact it was a rare occurrence of the church acting in accordance with the wishes of its people, rather than the converse.

People, please this stuff is easily knowable.

with the obvious exception of the gay cardinal he is here to beatify.

Except the Vatican got quite cross with the claims that he was gay?

sort of, but that is more for show. If they really had any qualms about it they wouldn't do it would they?

People, please this stuff is easily knowable

if you use a phrase like that you should check the facts in your post.

CharlieMungus - Member

"I think thats enough to prove my point don't you?"

Not really,

What? Did you actually read the quotes? Referring to Africa as well and you think millions of cases of AIDS in latin america is not important?

Get real. You are so blind to the truth here.

No one with any sense can doubt that catholic teachings on condoms has been responsible for millions of deaths. UN experts on Aids / HIV have publicly stated this.

CharlieMungus - Member

I see your point, are you then suggesting that the pope/CC has influence on the governments of predominantly non catholic countries in Sub-saharan Africa?

Yes they do - see the quotes from various African catholic bishops

Why are we not seeing epidemics in South America?

We are - millions infected and the rate of infection rising rapidly

1) I see the quotes from individual bishops, I also see lots of bishops who didn't say these things. I didn't see any evidence of lots of people accepting what these (isolated) individual say

2) The rates in South America are small comapared to the epidemics some African countries.
In fact the overall rate for South America, is less than the rate for switzerland
http://www.avert.org/

Time for you to show some data TJ.

What? Did you actually read the quotes?

did you actually read the data?

Charlie - clearly nothing will convince you.

millions infected in south america doesn't count because its smaller than the african epidemics?

Quotes from people involved in healthcare in africa stating that catholic pressure has made it harder to provide condoms don't count?

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre s[b]ays he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition[/b]. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

get real.

I have provided lots of data and lots of quotes and you simply turn a blind eye. You continue to attempt to defend the indefensible.

Charlie - clearly nothing will convince you.

Data will

millions infected in south america doesn't count because its smaller than the african epidemics?

No, because as a percentage of population, it is quite small. Less than switzerland

Quotes from people involved in healthcare in africa stating that catholic pressure has made it harder to provide condoms don't count

They do, but this is qualitative anecdotal evidence. It shows that it happens, but does not give any indication of how widespread it is

Tue Oct 23, 2007
TEGUCIGALPA (Reuters) -[b] The rapid spread in Latin America of the virus that causes AIDS is made worse by the Roman Catholic Church's stand against using condoms, a U.N. official said on Monday[/b][u].
Some 1.7 million people across Latin America are infected with the HIV virus or full-blown AIDS, and the epidemic is spreading swiftly with up to 410,000 new cases in 2006, up from as many as 320,000 new cases in 2004, according the UN AIDS program, UNAIDS.

400 000+ new case in a year? And that is 6 years ago - epidemics rise exponetially. Not an epidemic?

epidemics rise exponetially. Not an epidemic?

circular argument.
Where is the exponential rise?
Exponential rise is not necessarily a characteristic of an epidemic.
[i] AIDS is[b] made worse[/b] by the Roman Catholic Church's stand against using condoms, a U.N. official said on Monday[/i]

Again, single point data, and i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor, but not the main cause.

*bangs head on wall*

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor

On which basis, we can safely say that the Catholic Church is A Bad Thing, the magnitude of its Badness can be debated but clearly not the fact that it is...

There is none so blind as those who will not see.

On that I agree! why do you refuse to engage with the evidence. I have done you that courtesy with your evidence

If it is so easy, show me the exponential growth

[i]i don't deny that the teachings of the catholic church are a factor[/i]
On which basis, we can safely say that the Catholic Church is A Bad Thing, the magnitude of its Badness can be debated but clearly not the fact that it is

Too simplistic. Bicycles are a factor in road deaths, does that make them a bad thing?

Popemobile looks like a mobile toilet.

Given his age, it probably is - the seat certainly looks like a commode...

They're not a factor because they don't cause it.

If the church tells someone not to use condoms and they don't when they otherwise would have then they're at least part of the cause and therefore a bad thing.

Are you really saying that a bicycle has never caused a road death?

we've started using 'don't do that or the pope will bum you...' as a disiplinary threat to our 1 year old..

Not as a result of actions it has chosen to take... (though I do swear sometimes that my bikes decide to puncture just to spite me...)

320,000 new cases in 2004 (TJ)
410,000 new cases in 2006 (TJ)
170,000 new cases in 2008 (avert.com)

Are you really calling that exponential growth?

clubber, this is pointless, let's say cyclists then. Cyclist are a contributory factor in road deaths so they are a Bad Thing. Magnitude to be ascertained

Yep, cyclists who make choices that cause crashes deliberately are a bad thing.

The CC knows that banning condoms will cause deaths. It is completely in their power (if not their egos) to avoid doing this.

No need to disaggregate the cyclists here clubber, you didn't with the CC.

CC contributes to death therefore is a bad thing
cyclists contribute to death therefore are bad thing

Couldn't watch the news today without wanting to blow chunks. Daily Mash to the rescue...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/queen-to-have-lunch-with-insane-criminal-201009163093/

deliberate policy of the catholic church is responsible for deaths. That this policy will cause deaths is well known and indisputable. I doubt many cyclists deaths are the responsibility of deliberate policy.

TJ, you forgot about the epidemic and the data and the exponential growth

Cyclists are not an organisation with edicts and rules so your point fails.

Fine, now deal with the main issue

but you say that the CC contibutes to deaths, so it is a bad thing.
The CC also contributes to saving lives, so it is a good thing!

Oh no! this simplistic approach leads to cognitive conflict!!!!

Charlie. I merely gave up trying to correct your misunderstandings and deliberate distortions.

You have tuned yourself into an apologist for an organisation with blood on its hands - in the fdace of all teh evidence and expert opinion.

Mind the back door doesn't hit your ass on the way out TJ.

Still, feel free to come back and justify your guesses about epidemics and growth rates whenever you like.

and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back

an organisation with blood on its hands

Same could be said about the NHS couldn't it?

Its not my guesses. its the expert opinions of those wha actually work in the field.

and any time you think you can explain why there is no correlation between Percentage of catholics and birth rates and HIV incidence, then do come back

And the relevance of this is?

Shouldn't today be a public holiday? I mean it's an important day after all? Everyone gets an extra day off and get paid too. No?

Society has already sorted that for you Charlie.

You can save 100 people from being killed but murder one and you're a murderer. The church claims to be there for good. As such the good it does is implicit and it should cause harm. To do so knowingly is not therefore not acceptable.