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If people (and wheelchairs and prams) can get past your car safely without having to go into the road, then how are they inconvenienced?
As the parent of a small child who spends a lot of time walking and cycling on pavements, I routinely have to watch out for cars driving on them, and watch him struggle to navigate around the ones that are already there.
Just having the number of cars we do on the roads around residential areas is an enormous inconvenience and issue of safety for children. That we can even think that it's of no inconvenience to also occupy the pavement, is indicitave of how bad the problem has become.
So to summarise, pavement parking is legal?
As explained earlier, driving on the pavement is illegal, which makes it impossible to legally drive onto the pavement in the first place, so it was never considered in law.
Mostly it isn’t, as shown by the widespread failure of anti-LTN candidates in the local elections. The problem is that radical drivists are noisy; the ULEZ is a specific issue (as discussed on the SKS thread) to do with misinformation and it’s likely that once it’s in, it’ll be a non-issue.
+1
I wonder what the actual number of cars in Uxbridge that would be caught by ULEZ is.
Petrol cars after 2006 (and a lot before that)
Diesel cars after 2015 (and a lot before that).
The closest stat I could find was that 94% of vehicles in the current zone don't pay the charge, implying that only 6% fail to meet the criteria, but that's after it's in place so includes the effect of people replacing their cars or just selling them.
So maybe it does matter, there were ~67400 registered voters, 46% turned out. Labour either needed to convince ~500 more to turn out or swing ~250 that did and in the order of 4000 voters will end up paying it (6% of the total).
Just having the number of cars we do on the roads around residential areas is an enormous inconvenience and issue of safety for children
I just remembered the rules from my childhood - never try to cross a road from between two parked cars - and actually laughed out loud at the thought of people trying to follow that in my area
You'd be trapped for hours, circling the block and waiting for someone to move their car away 😅
I think (don’t quote me) that there’s a new additional tax based on vehicle weight that came in last year (I think) it’s pretty punitive.
Kei class FTW!
It’s always someone else’s fault. How about housebuyers and tenants don’t choose to live somewhere where they can’t park their car safely? Or how about they match their transport to where they live?
But that's exactly what they're doing!
I don't agree with any of this BTW but you're just reinforcing the original point. These new estates are built entirely car-centrically with no public transport links and no active travel options. Oh they are supposed to have a token cycle path or something but often that gets pushed back to "phase two" or beyond that funnily enough never materialises. So really, yes, it IS someone elses fault, it's poor planning criteria and poor enforcement. People have to live somewhere, I'm sure as hell going to avoid all these pitfalls if I can help it but not everyone is as proactive. Right now there is a complete absence of both carrot and stick and the horse is lost somewhere in a patch of thistles.
@thisisnotaspoon if you dip into the EV thread I posted a link last night to a load of DVLA stats if you want to put your spreadsheet ****er hat on and do some diving, you might find the info you're looking for.
I love all the ‘artist’s impressions’ of new build estates.. a car here and there, a family running with a kite down the road, holding hands and laughing, people cycling everywhere, flocks of songbirds in the mature trees, and beautiful warm sunshine…
Reality...
https://twitter.com/PlanningShit/status/1671757353018880000?t=easvkkyIBHyFzkRQ7Pw-Zg&s=19
The estate where I live had 2 car parking spaces per house/flat. It also has the Metro and Buses at the end of the road.
There is a bike lane on a wide pavement. The problem is some people built extensions on there parking space and many residents choose to park on car on the road/pavement to avoid having to move the other car to get onto the road. Not many houses have more than 2 cars.
It also has mature trees not all new builds look like the picture above.
You should have to prove you have a parking space before you buy a car. As you do in Japan.
Either you chose a house with a space or you apply for an onsteeet space. If councils control on street parking and only issue as many permits as spaces, it would start to erode the car culture assumptions we have.
Some places in the UK are doing better. the Nottingham workplace parking levy charges city centre employers £500 per space but has put the £90 million raised (over 10years) into the tram and other public transport. Fewer people drive (or need to drive) to work in the city.
Which is the nub. Better public transport is needed.
@binners have you considered a Hebden Brudge solution? Club together and buy a small plot with enough spaces for you and your neighbours. Or club together and get a car club going so a few of you can get rid of your least used vehicle. Saves money and space.
not all new builds look like the picture above.
Many do though - follow @PlanningShit on Twitter for lots of examples!
As explained earlier, driving on the pavement is illegal, which makes it impossible to legally drive onto the pavement in the first place, so it was never considered in law.
How do I get to park on my drive then?
I'm a fairly easy going person but must admit I'm guilty of pushing a pushchair along the side of a car (BMW obvs) that would park on the pavement on the brow of a hill. No idea what their thought process was or if there even was one to be honest...
Left some fairly sizeable gouges too but **** em.
On that same street, they were planning on building 3 new 4 bed homes, with 1 parking space for each of them. Thankfully it got rejected until they put 2 spaces in for each house. Which as others have said isn't really enough...
If you park on the pavement the pavement side of your vehicle is fair game for "incidental damage" as far as I'm concerned.
"New" estates seem to be particularly bad for it too without the "there were a lot less cars" excuse of Terraced Streets.
is this a trick question & you can't actually drive and don't even have a car? (as this would explain your complete ignorance of the Highway Code 😉)How do I get to park on my drive then?
not all new builds look like the picture above.
No, but none of them ever look as idyllic as the artist's impressions suggest they will be like.
How do I get to park on my drive then?
Boringly, you can drive over a pavement with a dropped kerb.
You can drive across the pavement if you have a dropped kerb to reach your drive. Not the same as pavement parking.
On new builds - a development of flats near me that is about 15 years old has 0.6 parking spaces per flat
On artists impressions - another development near me on the side of the old dock basin had images of speedboats and sailing boats on the basin. There is no access to the sea any more as the swing bridge has not opened for 40+ years. the only way you could get a boat in there would be by road and crane adn the only place you could go is round and round the basin which is a few hundred m long
Binners – I do get it. Car drivers think they can do what they want and sod anyone else. I’m suprised at you tho 🙂 Not very socialist not wanting to share 🙂
*sigh*
Let me try and explain this as simply as possible
I live in an area of Victorian-built terraced streets with a narrow road and wide pavements on both sides of the road.
All the local residents know the score. If you park on one side of the road, no kerbs involved, if you park on the other side of the road then you need to bump your wheels onto the kerb by a few inches to allow single file traffic through
There is nowhere else exceptthe street to park your car in our area. And I do mean NOWHERE!
This still leaves ample room on the pavement to get a pushchair or wheelchair though, not that you ever see either on our steep residential road
At no point (unless you’re a total bell end) does anyone ‘block’ the pavement
Clear?
It’s born of necessity and inconveniences no one … well… apart from you, apparently 😂
The next thing we’ll have is you telling us all to get EV’s where there’s no off road parking anywhere and you can rarely park within 100 yards of your house
Oh… and before you say we don’t need cars, public transport in the area is non-existent!
There is nowhere else exceptthe street to park your car in our area. And I do mean NOWHERE!
Shame - have to park further away then
its still no excuse to block pavements and as above - what about those who need to walk side by side? Double buggies? The blind? there is never any excuse for pavement parking and I am glad the ban is going to be enforced in Scotland( hopefully)
binners have you considered a Hebden Brudge solution? Club together and buy a small plot with enough spaces for you and your neighbours
A plot of land? Around us? It’s streets full of Victorian terraces. There’s no plots of land anywhere and if there was it’d be snaffled up by property developers for 100 times what we could afford to pay for it
Kei class FTW!
I'm totally for that. Having had kids learn to drive, our second vehicle child just be a local wagon and an electric Kei car would be the shizzle for us.
Shame – have to park further away then
Nah… I’ll just park on the pavement 🤪
its still no excuse to block pavements and as above – what about those who need to walk side by side? Double buggies? The blind?
If you can push a double buggy with two small children and some shopping up the 25% gradient from the town centre to our house, without having a heart attack, I’ll sell my car 😂
On that same street, they were planning on building 3 new 4 bed homes, with 1 parking space for each of them. Thankfully it got rejected until they put 2 spaces in for each house. Which as others have said isn’t really enough…
This is a catch-22 though. New builds are supposed to be incentivising a lower-car lifestyle, they're supposed to be considered alongside facilities (shops, schools, Dr, etc) and they're supposed to be integrated into local transport measures (bus, tram etc) and to provide active travel infrastructure while also discouraging rampant car ownership.
Naturally of course very little of this materialises. The developer will promise a bike lane which will get progressively watered down until it's little more than a dark alleyway which rapidly accrues dog shit and needles and broken glass and no cyclist would ever use. The council is supposed to introduce a new bus service but "cost/efficiency/resources" mean that never happens. The supermarket is not interested in opening a small branch to cater for 100 people in a new build estate so it builds an out of town behemoth 3 miles away next to a dual carriageway.
And you've created a car-centric world - more than that you've created a world where you HAVE to own a car. Or two. Multiply this up by '000's all over the country since the 60's/70's and that's where we've ended up.
My sister lived (very briefly) in such a development and it was horrible. Every morning, a queue of cars from the estate would be trying to get out onto the main road, every evening there'd be queues and near misses on the main road as everyone tried to turn back into the estate. The supermarket was "only" a mile away - but with no pavement for some of the trip and on said busy main road. It had no cycle parking. A car was essential. It was terrible design. But a combination of developers seeking maximum profit and inept/ineffective council controls meant it got the go-ahead.
And adding in 2 or 3 free all-inclusive car parking spaces per home simply incentives more car ownership.
If you can push a double buggy with two small children and some shopping up the 25% gradient from the town centre without having a heart attack I’ll sell my car 😂
Mrs_oab is a independent and determined woman. She was known for pushing our double buggy with kids and shopping up our old street.
Nah… I’ll just park on the pavement 🤪
*adds Binners to the list*
The problem with scratching the **** out of cars parked on the pavement is that the owners don't realise they've been scratched because they were parked on the pavement...
In any case, this is all tedious bollocks. The more important question is this: where am I going to park the trailer for my battleship if I can't park it on the pavement? There is literally no battleship trailer parking anywhere on my estate.
Mrs_oab is a independent and determined woman. She was known for pushing our double buggy with kids and shopping up our old street
With the greatest respect to Mrs_oab, our street is a damn site steeper than that.
It’s part of the national hillclimb series, as TJ well knows because he’s endured the hell of riding up it
Nobody is going to be pushing a double buggy or a wheelchair up there, believe me!
If you can push a double buggy with two small children and some shopping up the 25% gradient from the town centre without having a heart attack I’ll sell my car 😂
Christ how did any of us / our parents survive as kids?!
That was NORMAL only 50 years ago.
I walked to school more or less every single day from the age of 5 to the age of 18 - now apparently that same journey requires a 2 tonnes of car?!
The more important question is this: where am I going to park the trailer for my battleship if I can’t park it on the pavement?
Its a battleship. It can create its own parking space!
If you can push a double buggy with two small children and some shopping up the 25% gradient from the town centre to our house, without having a heart attack
So you're saying it's OK to park on your particular pavement because of its gradient. What about all the other streets near you? What would you want to happen there?
In a narrow street I lived in in London the pavement was marked up for parking. Not ideal - it left a too-narrow pavement - but at least it formalises the situation. I'd have them do that on your streets so that in that special situation you can carry on parking as you have done.
But let's get the national law banning pavement parking except where explicitly allowed in ASAP before we're completely out of control (which I think we nearly are already).
The developer will promise a bike lane which will get progressively watered down until it’s little more than a dark alleyway which rapidly accrues dog shit and needles and broken glass and no cyclist would ever use.
Or they do as promised and build that bike lane, although do it very, very badly...
don't waste your breath trying to explain this to a millennial snowflake, he'd sooner have you up in court at The Hague charged with violating his human rights by making him walk 2 mins 😉I walked to school more or less every single day from the age of 5 to the age of 18 – now apparently that same journey requires a 2 tonnes of car?!
Ok next question, for those that think the highway code is law. If I can't park over a dropped kerb is that true for the dropped kerb outside my house if it's my car I'm parking?<!--more-->
If I can’t park over a dropped kerb is that true for the dropped kerb outside my house if it’s my car I’m parking?
Yes, you can be fined for exactly that. Many have been. Dropped kerbs need to be kept accessible for all users, regardless of whether it was put in for your driveway.
This is a catch-22 though. New builds are supposed to be incentivising a lower-car lifestyle, they’re supposed to be considered alongside facilities (shops, schools, Dr, etc) and they’re supposed to be integrated into local transport measures (bus, tram etc) and to provide active travel infrastructure while also discouraging rampant car ownership.
Valid point but we're a relatively small village with a crap bus service into Leicester or [shudders] Coalville.
Yes, you can be fined for exactly that. Many have been. Dropped kerbs need to be kept accessible for all users, regardless of whether it was put in for your driveway.
I'll have to just park on the pavement then and hope no one sees me drive onto it!
Nobody is going to be pushing a double buggy or a wheelchair up there, believe me!
Mrs_oab replies by pushing up her sleeves and stretching her calves.... 😂😂😂
The problem with scratching the **** out of cars parked on the pavement is that the owners don’t realise they’ve been scratched because they were parked on the pavement…
It works in the netherlands.
the owners don’t realise they’ve been scratched because they were parked on the pavement
The system round here is to lift the wipers. Often see it on badly parked cars. Again may not be totally obvious to the driver but they'll know their car has been touched which many drivers seem to hate. I'll often fold a wing mirror in. Should be reasonably obvious why that has happened.
The system round here is to lift the wipers.
I’ll often fold a wing mirror in.
I usually hang a dog poo bag on the wing mirror.
and how often do you reckon I get to park within 200 yards of my house? You really don’t get this at all, so you?
I do having lived in such a street in the past and I would have to walk 500m or further (shock horror) to avoid inconveniencing others or getting a ticket. Also lived on a steep hill, one of the steepest in the town and similar to your street and we managed a double inline buggy every weekday.
There really is no excuse for pavement parking.
I’ll often fold a wing mirror in.
Ah, but those entitled to pavement park have autofolding mirrors that go in when the car is locked….. 😂
I do having lived in such a street in the past and I would have to walk 500m or further (shock horror) to avoid inconveniencing others or getting a ticket. Also lived on a steep hill, one of the steepest in the town and similar to your street and we managed a double inline buggy every weekday
Did you move from there to a cardboard box on the hard shoulder of the M6, live on a diet of gravel and work 26 hours a day? 🙄
Yer road is not even that steep 🙂 when I were a lad...........
Did you move from there to a cardboard box on the hard shoulder of the M6, live on a diet of gravel and work 26 hours a day?
M6 hard shoulder and a cardboard box! Well hello Mr Fancy Pants. Central reservations on the M62 just outside of Saddleworth and a Greggs steak bake wrapper for a sleeping bag.
Shame – have to park further away then
To be fair to Binners, i used to live in a town much like that. Lots of small, narrow (many cobbled) streets with reasonably sized pavements. The little bit i lived in, the roads across the hillside were just about wide enough for two cars to pass each other, the roads going up/down the hill side weren't ever designed for cars. Just delivery carts. Going one way. Car have got a shed load bigger since then.
Nearest place to park, without being a dick and obstructing the roads or pavements, other than finding a spot on a quiet road going across the hillside, was about a mile and a half away. And that was a pay and display.
You'd also struggle to "bump up the kerb" as they were mostly massive stone slabs, 6-8" thick.
I didn't have a car though, so i didn't care much.
I prefer the system in Sweden, unless it's explicitly stated "you can park here", you can't. And the police issue the tickets, as do some private parking companies. So anyone being naughty for more than a short period of time will get a ticket, minimum is about 50 quid where i am. Up to about 80 quid.
I must admit that I was probably the most sceptical person around regarding the likely success in the implementation of Scottish Government's anti pavement laws. But I was wrong - it has on the whole worked exceptionally well. Streets that were once impossible to walk on without either squeezing past vehicles, or moving on and off the pavement, are now free to walk along. What a joy.
I just spent a few days in Marseille - they could do with implementing the same there, it was grim.