Pavement parkers

I’ll ask you again… where exactly?

On the road where yo should be.  Adjoing streets, up the road, down n the towncentre.  wherever there is room to park considerately.- and its not just wheelchair users that have mobility issues.  wheelchair down your road would be fun tho.  Up less so

Edit:

Just had a look on google streetview - all the cars outside your gaff parked on the road, none on the pavvement.  Pavement is very narrow.  2 wheels on that and you cannot walk past

tjagainFull Member
find somewhere safe to park where you do not block pavements.  Are you really telling me if you park on the road a car can’t get past? the road is less than 4 m wide?

Can you not see how selfish it is to block pavements even partially?

There is nowhere to park outwith the estate for more than a few hours at Lidl or the like. Those who park wholly on the street seem to attract the most negativity from the neighbours, compared to those who park partly on pavement. Those are the facts..

I totally get the point, my point is that in general people will rather be potentially selfish than inconvenienced.  I would also note that the cars parked wholly on street are perceived as nuisance to many people, often. Those partly on the pavement are perceived as nuisance to a very small minority, rarely.. That doesn’t make it right, but following the norm is ‘the norm’..

so what’s the acceptable to the residents solution in an estate such as I describe, probs 200 houses, and 30% of them have a 3rd and in some cases a 4th car

@butcher I'd also wager that when grown up kids were earning enough to buy a car, they'd move out first, or buy a car and be moving out not long after, back in the day.

These days, thanks to the full economic poopshow that is our country the past 10-20 years, jobs which pay enough to save enough to move out often require some aspect of travel. Now I'm a homeowner but I'm lucky in that my job pays relatively well and isn't too far away from home, it's a 15 mile trip each way. To get the same salary somewhere else appears to be only offered in cities which is an hour+ commute. Now disregarding that fact, even to get to my own offices as it stands currently, the public transport infrastructure is shocking, and I know this isn't specific to just my location.

We're talking 6 different busses or 4 different trains to get to my offices, combined would probably take around 2hrs, not even taking train ticket prices into account. So if you're a youngster and this is what your faced with in order to earn a good starter salary in your chosen career, you're better off working in the cities and travelling by car, you could also move to the city so you don't have to commute but then you compare the prices for rent in the city and the prices for rent where you currently live with your parents, both of which are more than a mortgage anyway, and I'm not surprised why they think it's cheaper to get a car on finance, stay at home with mam and dad and contribute to the bills, and still be getting enough money to save toward a house deposit.

Compare that with working locally where car ownership isn't needed but career prospects are poor/wages are worse and as such being a homeowner will be something that's much harder to achieve

Ergo it appears kids are staying at the family home longer and all owning cars until they're in a position to buy and move out

@alpin It’s also really easy to remove Schrader valve cores for safe keeping (TFIC)

I think it was Wigan council who responded to a consultation about removing parking spaces to make way for a protected bike lane by saying that it wasn’t their responsibility to provide somewhere to park private cars. And Dave Walker has done a good cartoon on this (which I currently can’t find).

Those who park wholly on the street seem to attract the most negativity from the neighbours, compared to those who park partly on pavement. Those are the facts..

and?  Neighbours tutting because you don't park on the pavement - ignore them FFS

There is nowhere to park outwith the estate for more than a few hours at Lidl or the like. Those who park wholly on the street seem to attract the most negativity from the neighbours, compared to those who park partly on pavement. Those are the facts..

This could be interpreted that the property isn't suitable for car ownership. Or in many circumstances it may be that the vehicles are too large.

It is one the fundamental reasons I think it would be difficult to introduce a nationwide ban, because we've, very slowly over time, backed ourselves into this hole that simply can't be undone overnight. It absolutely should be undone though.

^^^ many people will endeavour to live harmoniously with their neighbours and not cause conflict, again, fact..

if people consider bumping up on the paving to be the most harmonious solution they will adopt it. That’s human nature.  In an estate with a youngish demographic and few residents who need assistance I think this is just the way it’s going to end up, unless there is additional parking built in at Planning, and that won’t happen as there is more money to be made by firing up houses.

Or that people think slightly inconveniencing car drivers is far more of a crime than serious inconveniencing pedestrians with mobility issues

Its really a non issue - just park legally and safely.

Is pavement parking as described illegal in Scotland ? And it could be argued that it is safer to property in this scenario !

and yes, I am playing devils advocate TJ 😁

unless there is additional parking built in at Planning

It’s not to do with putting more houses up, it’s to do with planning restrictions on how much parking you can have (IIRC). As private cars are a massive source of CO2 emissions (if memory serves the rise of SUVs has completely offset the CO2 effect of efficiency/emissions improvements) then this isn’t going to change.

Can you not see how selfish it is to block pavements even partially?

If people (and wheelchairs and prams) can get past your car safely without having to go into the road, then how are they inconvenienced? Faced with the choice of actually breaking the law (rule 242) and not (rule 244) then what?

My choice would be; same rules as London, but I doubt cash strapped LC would be able to enforce it, and there's some places where you'd have to change the law to allow it because there's no other option open to residents who live in places that weren't designed with cars in mind that are now a reality of most folks lives.

Is pavement parking as described illegal in Scotland ?

Yes.  law is not being enforced yet but any wheels on the pavement is illegal

so what’s the acceptable to the residents solution in an estate such as I describe, probs 200 houses, and 30% of them have a 3rd and in some cases a 4th car

Don't buy a new build on a sh*tty new build estate without enough space for your family's car needs.
We recently viewed a house and decided not to buy and one of the main reasons was not enough space to park more than one car.
(Also, smaller cars, scooters, bikes, buses and feet are available instead of a car).
HtH.

If people (and wheelchairs and prams) can get past your car safely without having to go into the road, then how are they inconvenienced?

How about double buggies?  How about those who need someone walking alongside them?  How about those who want to walk alongside their kids?  How about the blind?

loads of situations whereby any pavement parking is an inconvenience or a danger to a minority.

Not come here to say its ok to park on pavements ... but ... round my way because of parking issues the council has embarked on a program of yellow line painting. So whenever an area gets heavily used for school drop/collect parking, even if its a totally legitimate use of the road they're parking on (no one is blocked in, no lines, just maybe slightly inconvenient for those living on that street/road) the council turns up and double yellow lines it in order to 'alleviate parking issues'. The total actual street parking has reduced by around a third I reckon in just 2 years. At the same time off street parking hasn't increased. The net effect? People are making their own off street parking on verges and wide pavements. Once a place is established as parking, people start using it more of course. As you could easily have predicted would happen. So while I don't agree with people doing it in general, its also easy to see why its happening in some places.

I kinda get people parking with a couple of wheels on the pavement. Happens around my SIL's estate. Built in the 1950's everyone has a drive that can fit two cars but lots and lots of people have more than two cars and when guests visit parking becomes congested. The general consensus is that people park with a couple of wheels on the pavement which allows wheelchairs and double buggies through but also leaves the road clear for bin lorry, ambulances and fire engines. Doesn't strictly comply with the highway code but general works ok.

Round the corner from me are the local shops. Has lots of dedicated parking but there are people who insist on parking on the pavement when going to the pharmacy or picking the kids up from pre/post school club. Exhibit 1 below.

Edit: We used to live in a Victorian house so everyone parked on the road and no pavemeent parking. Worked as you could still get a car down the middle and no-one pavement parked. Now moved to a new-build and one of the plus points is the ability to get 3 cars on the drive (just) and 2 cars out the front on our own bit of road. Ooooh very middle class. We only have 2 cars, 1 for wife and me and eldest child has a car. But it's handy when people visit and drive.

Wonder what’ll happen when the young adults living at home, with the offending cars, end up in EVs - will we have extended charger cables over the grass/drive and onto the pavements ?

I think the plan is to incorporate charging points in lamposts?

I hate pavement parking as it often creates a unsafe situation for pedestrians, especially wheelchair, pram, pushchair users etc

But (and this is a big but) the designers of new build estates, increased car ownership and car size have created the perfect storm.

I live in a 15 year old estate where the roads are narrow, so you definitely cannot get a car through if cars are parked properly on each side, and in some places it is hard to get a larger vehicle past if one car is parked properly on one side. To add to this the designers in their wisdom gave some houses what I call half drives (sometimes in front of a garage), where if that homeowner parks their car in front of their garage or house, half is on their drive, and half is on the pavement. The upshot of this is pedestrians are often forced to walk on the road due to inconsiderate parking. The pavements are quite wide, so in some places (with thought) pavement parking can have less impact, but often drivers don't seem to think of the implications.

How to solve it for existing estates I don't know as enforced fines for pavement parking would cause outcry or just push the problem down the road. I do think there should be rules for new build estates which result in wider roads and safer parking.

The ideal solution would be less cars, but that doesn't look like the way we are going!

I think the plan is to incorporate charging points in lamposts

I've heard it suggested. Someone on STW said it wouldn't work as they don't deliver enough power to charge speedily. But my (petrol) car only does 25ish miles a week, plus maybe one weekend away per month. So for me, a trickle charge from a lamppost would be fine. Trouble is, on my street there are about 8 cars for every lamppost!

Don’t buy a new build on a sh*tty new build estate without enough space for your family’s car needs.
We recently viewed a house and decided not to buy and one of the main reasons was not enough space to park more than one car.

I love all the 'artist's impressions' of new build estates.. a car here and there, a family running with a kite down the road, holding hands and laughing, people cycling everywhere, flocks of songbirds in the mature trees, and beautiful warm sunshine...

On my street there are  6 parking spaces for 20+ flats.  same all over the city.

I think we should take the dutch solution to this.  If you park on a pavement or a cycle lane many of the folk going past will key the car.  as a result its not really an issue there.

Well each lamppost could serve two cars if parking bays are intelligently marked (and used). There's no reason why additional stand-alone chargers (again serving two cars) can't be put at the pavement edge. Even 3kW will surely serve the vast majority of users.

loads of situations whereby any pavement parking is an inconvenience or a danger to a minority

And on those occasions when it's not, and faced with a choice of breaking the law (rule242) and not breaking the law (244) then what?

I think the plan is to incorporate charging points in lamposts?

I parked my car in a resident’s parking bay by a lamppost about a month or so ago (I have been away since then).
Since then the lamppost has had an e vehicle charging point fitted (in this bit of London they appear to only be for one vehicle) and some “concerned EV user” has left a note on my windscreen saying I must move my car.

There has been no change to the parking bay, it’s still a normal resident’s bay but obviously the electric car only comes with a short lead and a sense of entitlement 😉 .

I can’t see lampposts being a solution, on a residential road with end to end parking they are quite sparse.

In an estate with a youngish demographic and few residents who need assistance I think this is just the way it’s going to end up

I think the plan is to incorporate charging points in lamposts?

Park somewhere else where you do not break either rule.  Its never acceptable to park on the pavement.

You never know when someone is going to need the full pavement.  I have personally experienced this with mobility impaired and blind folk.  enough room for a person with no disabilities to get past.  a big challenge for those that have disabilities

what you are basically saying is its OK to inconvenience a disadvantaged minority for the convenience of the majority.

If I owned a car i would often have to park up to half a mile away

Just had a look on google streetview – all the cars outside your gaff parked on the road, none on the pavvement. Pavement is very narrow. 2 wheels on that and you cannot walk past

and how often do you reckon I get to park within 200 yards of my house? You really don’t get this at all, so you? 😂

that’s absolutely mad fingers-in-the-ears-singing-la-la-la thinking though! Those residents will age, more will need assistance, even more cars will appear but further down the line the problem will be even more ingrained and harder still to implement an actual solution!

^^^ absolutely, but in the here and now that’s the way it is. I don’t think many of the residents will adopt behaviours now that will not benefit them for many years,

The basic problem is that councilors and MPs don't want to do anything vaguely anti car as car drivers will not vote for them. Look at therecent by-election result affected by ULEZ.

We just need to make not taking action against cars a vote loosing strategy.

The meaning is “should not”. It’s not rocket science

So why does it not say must not?

because its not illegal.  Just against the code.

We just need to make not taking action against cars a vote loosing strategy.

Mostly it isn't, as shown by the widespread failure of anti-LTN candidates in the local elections. The problem is that radical drivists are noisy; the ULEZ is a specific issue (as discussed on the SKS thread) to do with misinformation and it's likely that once it's in, it'll be a non-issue.

@nickc that's 60% over 3 decades which is even more depressing.

I think the plan is to incorporate charging points in lamposts?

Which are all on the side away from the road where I live. I'd love them on the kerb, it would stop the take away delivery from driving along it because he hasn't figured out which number is which after **** knows how long delivering to the same houses.

Binners - I do get it.  Car drivers think they can do what they want and sod anyone else.  I'm suprised at you tho 🙂  Not very socialist not wanting to share 🙂

Would help alleviate the problem if people had smaller cars, imagine how many more cars could be parked safely if no cars were bigger than a Fiat 500.

what you are basically saying is its OK to inconvenience a disadvantaged minority for the convenience of the majority

No, what I'm saying is don't park on the pavement, but faced with actually breaking the law or (and if you don't inconvenience people), then not, then choose the latter. Which is also what the HWC wants me to do, so I'll stick to that.

because its not illegal

So to summarise, pavement parking is legal?

@squirrelking, yes you're right! that's even worse.

Would help alleviate the problem if people had smaller cars, imagine how many more cars could be parked safely if no cars were bigger than a Fiat 500.

I was in Paris last weekend and it was immediately noticeable how many cars were basic small hatchbacks, Renault Clio type things. Lots of those tiny Twingo cars, Fiat 500 etc and very few obnoxious behemoths. There were some but even then it was rare to see anything bigger than a BMW X5 (and even the older ones of those aren't "big" compared to a modern Range Rover).

Traffic was still shit and there were still some "creative" parking but they've got it right on the car size issue.

There was a report somewhere that reckoned if everyone in London swapped to a golf buggy, average traffic speeds would increase by nearly 2mph due to the extra road space freed up.

I was in Paris last weekend and it was immediately noticeable how many cars were basic small hatchbacks

I think (don't quote me) that there's a new additional tax based on vehicle weight that came in last year (I think) it's pretty punitive.

But (and this is a big but) the designers of new build estates, increased car ownership and car size have created the perfect storm

It's always someone else's fault. How about housebuyers and tenants don't choose to live somewhere where they can't park their car safely? Or how about they match their transport to where they live?

Building MORE parking on new build estates is not the solution to any of this.

So to summarise, pavement parking is legal?

In england outside of london its in a grey area.( dunno about wales / NI)  because causing an obstruction is illegal as is driving on pavements.

Just because you can does not mean you should

No, what I’m saying is don’t park on the pavement, but faced with actually breaking the law or (and if you don’t inconvenience people), then not, then choose the latter. Which is also what the HWC wants me to do, so I’ll stick to that.

the HWC does NOT want you to do that and there is a third option - park elsewhwere safely without obstructing pavements and you can never tell who you are inconveniencing by pavement parking