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Guido thinks that Gordon has won it for the Yes campaign
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See, all this "we'll be better when we're ruled by our own" thing doesn't wash with me. I (along with many others) have got first-hand experience of what happens when you elect local people to represent you. Have a google for corruption at Edinburgh Council. It's rife and, at times, downright criminal. What's worse is the contempt with which the people of Edinburgh are viewed by their councillors. There is a concerted effort from within to ignore the issues under the guise of numerous and sickeningly expensive resolutions processes, and a refusal from the Scottish Parliament to allow a public enquiry for fear of the embarrassment it will cause to all involved and their parties.
You think things will be rosy once the Westminster Old Boys network no longer has a say? Well there's an Old Boys network at Holyrood and beyond, and they are as corrupt and self-serving as any.
TFO - you know the beautiful thing about Edinburgh CC - you can vote them out if enough people where you live agree with you.
You don't feel that's missing the point somewhat?
No - not really. People don't agree with you then they get to stay in power. That's how democracy works.
you can vote them out if enough people where you live agree with you.
I'm sure the people of Rotherham are over the moon at that revelation about local democracy!
Enlighten me about what happened in Rotherham.
Love the DO spouting about optimum currency area on news now. Exactly, and what is the feature of this - you coordinate policy you do not not separate it.
The smug bllx is extraordinary and the so-called biased BBC report it without comment. Extraordinary
His willingness to deceive is breathtaking
His willingness to deceive is breathtaking
but Scotland will be the new Luxemburg and the richest country in the world.......... he must have plans to be a tax haven as well as a oil exporter and living of rUK green energy subsidies
apparently this former EU commissioner was wrong as well
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What I don't get as a non-economist is why, when there are lots of small countries doing fine by themselves, Scotland would be any different.
Ben - there is no doubt that Scotland could go it alone as an independent state. the question is whether it should go it alone. you know this perfectly well.
living of rUK green energy subsidies
Yes Scotland would have us believe that Scotlands renewables sector is of our own making.
Might it be possible that the future of this sector will be dependant on the willingness of a foreign country to continue paying for it?
ninfan - Member
I'm sure the people of Rotherham are over the moon at that revelation about local democracy!
Maybe they should now agitate to get their democracy replaced by rule by a wise and enlightened aristocrat?
Ben - there is no doubt that Scotland could go it alone as an independent state. the question is whether it should go it alone. you know this perfectly well.
So what's the point of the economic arguments then?
Whether we should go it alone isn't about money. It's about democracy, it's about getting rid of Trident, it's about trying to create a fairer society.
It's after 11pm and people are running - running! - to register to vote. In our normally apathetic democracy with steadily reducing voter turnouts, that's absolutely astounding and wonderful.
Douglas Alexander's relaxed authoritive style is destroying Nicola Sturgeon.
Facts v bollox!
Define fairier then Ben?
Nice to see dear Nicola telling the rUK that a CU was in their best interests tonight. Put the other way round and that is considered hectoring or bullying. Plus we don't need people, who don't understand how currencies work, lecturing us. More hypocrisy and cheesy lines like Alexander being Team Tories. Pity you can't be straight hey Nicola.
You have often define trident in economic terms and ditto "fairer".So make your mind up. Anyway you cannot escape the fact that we are all economists since we all have to allocate scarce resources to unlimited wants.
It's after 11pm and people are running - running! - to register to vote. In our normally apathetic democracy with steadily reducing voter turnouts, that's absolutely astounding and wonderful.
It's also indicative of their untidy minds. It's worth remembering that whether you're yes or no, your vote will likely be cancelled out by one of these buffoons who didn't think to register until the very, very last stroke of midnight. I wonder what else has slipped past them unawares whilst they were forming an opinion on the referendum.
The deceit?
It's also indicative of their untidy minds
Ah yes, of course, they're just untidy buffoons. They're probably unemployed too. Nothing to do with the fact that people feel disenfranchised and there's no point being registered to vote when voting makes no difference. Now they're realising, for the first time in their lives maybe, that it's worth voting for something.
But hey, easier to belittle people.
You have often define trident in economic term
I have, because it is a colossal waste of money. But getting rid of it is a moral issue, not a financial one. Even if it didn't save us a penny, I'd still think independence was worth it to get rid of the things. They have no place in a civilised country, any more than the death penalty does.
What if they are NO voters Ben waking up to the nonsense being spouted by YS? They had been complacent before (bad mistake) but now realise that sanity must prevail?
possibly true and a good economic argument - so c'mon be consistent! 😉I have, because it is a colossal waste of money.
If they are, then fine - more people caring about how their country is run is a good thing, no matter which way they vote.
However I don't think they're No voters, somehow.
Whether we should go it alone isn't about money. It's about democracy, it's about getting rid of Trident, it's about trying to create a fairer society.
but AS is saying that Scotland will be the new Luxemburg (AKA the richest country in the world) and rUK Belgium
thanks Alex
but AS is saying that Scotland will be the new Luxemburg (AKA the richest country in the world) and rUK Belgium
thanks Alex
I don't care. A vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP.
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30's
cant believe I am hearing it,
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30's
Boom! Godwin. You win the internetz.
Sancho - Member
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30'scant believe I am hearing it,
We are ironing our Tartan Shirts as you speak.
Tomorrow will be Scotland's darkest hour - Egg Shinty* Nicht.
We have the names of the enemy, parliamentary expenses fiddlers to a man, and we are fully armed with fowl produce.
*acknowledgements to KonaBunny
this fair sums up how out of touch you are with what's actually happening up here!teamhurtmore - Member
What if they are NO voters Ben waking up to the nonsense being spouted by YS? They had been complacent before (bad mistake) but now realise that sanity must prevail?
Sancho - Member
HahhahahhahahahahhahahhahHa 😆
Saw the news tonight.
Just LOVED the remark about Scotland being the new Luxembourg. Luxembourg a country based on tax evasion whether that be Germans carrying suitcases of money to avoid high taxes at home or global businesses locating their "brass plate" head offices there to avoid corporate taxes. I don't have too many good things to say about George Galloway but he had it absolutely right when he said an independent Scotland will engage in a race to the bottom on tax rates which will be to the detriment of the average working person.
jambalaya - Member
....I don't have too many good things to say about George Galloway but he had it absolutely right when he said an independent Scotland will engage in a race to the bottom on tax rates which will be to the detriment of the average working person.
I don't believe a word Gorgeous George says either, so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
So what's the point of the economic arguments then?
Whether we should go it alone isn't about money. It's about democracy, it's about getting rid of Trident, it's about trying to create a fairer society.
because the state can't help create a fairer society if it doesn't have any m-m-money!
so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
The average worker in Luxembourg has a greater risk of being 'in poverty' than one from the UK and more than double that of their neighbours from the other Benelux countries(LU 9%, UK 8%, BE&NL 4%). A single parent in Luxembourg is one of the most likely people in Europe to be in poverty!
[url= http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-RA-10-015/EN/KS-RA-10-015-EN.PDF ]Source[/url]
it's about trying to create a fairer society
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that... You do realise the UK isn't actually full of Tories don't you?
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that...
We've had this argument before. How can we help you? We've tried not voting for the Tories, but that didn't work as Scotland is too small to meaningfully influence UK elections. So apart from that, what can Scotland do?
One thing we can do is show a different way. The reason voter turnout falls year after year is that people don't see the point in voting. People think that the way it is is the way it always will be. What an independent Scotland can do to help is show the rest of the UK that they don't have to accept the status quo.
If we can climb out of the crab bucket instead of being dragged back in, we can help others climb out too.
I don't believe a word Gorgeous George says either, so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
@epic - George's comments weren't in relation to Luxembourg. What he was saying was that an independent Scotland would compete with the UK in a "race to the bottom" in terms of lower businesses taxes and reduced workers rights in order to attract and retain companies. Lower taxes of course means less money for welfare and other social projects. This would be very much to the detriment of the average working person both sides of the border.
molgrips - Member
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that... You do realise the UK isn't actually full of Tories don't you?
If the rest of the UK was turning out in droves on the streets, canvassing, filling town hall meetings, and had an actual pro democracy movement, you would be justified in saying that.
But that isn't happening. All we can hope for is that Scotland's departure fires up a popular movement to do just that.
It's in your hands. It should be easy now we have shown how to take on the Establishment in the face of a hostile press and media..
You can be the person to start an rUK democratic movement. Start by talking to your neighbours, and their neighbours. This campaign is succeeding because it has been done person to person rather than relying on the media. When you get the people talking and active in a cause, you get democracy.
Do it instead of blaming us.
This fairer society debate is a red herring, political sound bites.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are. You cannot and never will create a fairer society by attempting to redistribute wealth via tax policy. If you look around the world you will see that Western Europe has the fairest societies.
Here is a scenario where Scotland becomes "fairer" after a Yes vote. Standard Life relocates its head office to the UK in order to remain regulated by the UK FCA (no Scottish equivalent has been proposed). The majority of the senior executives and their support teams move to the UK. The rank and file employees remain in Scotland working for a service company subsidiary. With the majority of the high paid jobs now in the UK (and the majority of the corporate tax revenue) Scotland is now a fairer place as the gap between the low and high paid has been reduced.
[i]I have, because it is a colossal waste of money. But getting rid of it is a moral issue, not a financial one. Even if it didn't save us a penny, I'd still think independence was worth it to get rid of the things. They have no place in a civilised country, any more than the death penalty does.[/i]
What a utopia the independent Scotland sounds. Having watched and listened to the various debates as an impartial bystander, Ive come to the conclusion, that Salmond should just come out with the truth instead of spouting the endless claptrap regarding oil, the currency, welfare etc.
And that is, in a nutshell......[b]'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'![/b]
Which is fine, if not a typical chip on the shoulder attitude.....but an attitude that will affect Scotland for years after his demise, possibly detrimentally. Its a huge gamble!
jambalaya - Member
...@epic - George's comments weren't in relation to Luxembourg. What he was saying was that an independent Scotland would compete with the UK in a "race to the bottom" in terms of lower businesses taxes and reduced workers rights in order to attract and retain companies. Lower taxes of course means less money for welfare and other social projects.
I could see the value of lowering corporate taxes to a certain extent. Many corporations based in Scotland currently are headquartered in London so pay their taxes there. A lower rate would attract them up here and the total tax take would be higher. I can see your point about a race to the bottom, but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
As for the destruction of workers rights and conditions, that's really a consequence of the main UK parties being beholden to their large political donors and media barons.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune. I think workers rights will be safer than in rUK.
Any arguments about workers rights and conditions needs to be balanced as to what a business can afford. We have better rights than the US, India, ****stan, ... Not as good as Germany and France - but look at the issues that are happening in France and the understanding the balance is not right at the moment.
As at all times, nothing is perfect. Zero hour contracts should be banned. The minimum wage should be set to the living wage, this would allow the government not have to top up wages through the tax and benefit system. Which should mean lower taxes. However workers rights in the UK are good and while some demand that we move to a US model, this won't happen. Our right wing Tory party would be left of centre in the US
But this may or may not happen in an iScotland. Regardless of 'active participation of the people' the big contributors to an economy will always have a bigger impact on politics. This is just reality. Ifteh demand on the corporates get too much, then they will leave Scotland and relocate to just over the border.
Ive come to the conclusion, that Salmond should just come out with the truth instead of spouting the endless claptrap regarding oil, the currency, welfare etc.
Why would he abandon a policy which is working so well for him?
but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
So what did Sir BS mean by suggesting that iS could be like Luxembourg? Oh sorry, I forgot he'll say anything if he thinks it will win him a vote.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune.
They already are.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are.
That sounds fantastic - now which Westminster party should I vote for to get that?
And that is, in a nutshell......'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'!Which is fine, if not a typical chip on the shoulder attitude
Ooh, the irony 😀
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
How can we help you?
Solidarity.