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Solidarity.
Ah. So we should go down with the sinking ship instead of getting into the lifeboat.
How can we help you in actual, practical terms?
Our right wing Tory party wouldbe left of centre in the US
My understanding is that they're somewhat more liberal than the Democrats!
Ah. So we should go down with the sinking ship
No you can grab a bucket.
In practical terms, by voting left at the ballot box. How many Labour party members will be lost, incidentally? As opposed to voters?
And that is, in a nutshell......'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'!
You really haven't engaged much in the debate if you really think that's what it comes down it.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are.
All things we've been doing in Scotland while folk in Westminster seem to be doing the opposite by invading foreign countries, hiking up tuition fees and laying the groundwork to selling off the NHS.
In practical terms, by voting left at the ballot box. How many Labour party members will be lost, incidentally? As opposed to voters?
And we do vote left all we like but it'll only help if a majority of the folk in the rest of the UK do the same.
molgrips - Member
"How can we help you?"
Solidarity.
Solidarity involves you actually doing something we can participate in.
What actions have you taken for democracy this week? Point us at the democratic movement in rUK. The nearest thing I can see is UKIP
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune. I think workers rights will be safer than in rUK.
Is it contempt or apathy that nationalist feel towards the UK workforce? It certainly is not a sense of solidarity.
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
This shows that nationalists really do feel different to everyone else in the UK despite claims to the contrary.
Standard Life relocates its head office to the UK in order to remain regulated by the UK FCA
This is an interesting point. There are companies in Scotland serving the whole UK who would quite possibly lose 90% of their business if it cannot be exported. So they would have to move.
Has this been taken into account with the economic forecasts?
apparently, you'll be getting all our high paid jobs, don't think we can do you a better solid than that! 😆molgrips - Member
How can we help you?
Solidarity
What actions have you taken for democracy this week?
Um.. what? Why do you ask?
I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
bingo!Point us at the democratic movement in rUK. The nearest thing I can see is UK
This shows that nationalists really do feel different to everyone else in the UK despite claims to the contrary.
I don't know what the nationalists feel, I'm not a nationalist. I've said it many times, I'd much prefer proper reform of the UK - a proper federal system of government. But that is not being offered by anyone, there's zero chance of it happening, so second best choice is for part of the UK to show how it could be done.
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.
Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
But that is not being offered by anyone, there's zero chance of it happening
Again this is a ridiculous argument. When talking about the status quo in Scotland, the answer is 'oh it'll change in the future'. When talking about the status quo in Westminster, it'll never change.
What the fk? This is really stupid thinking.
I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
We do - but as election after election shows, the way Scotland votes has little to no impact on the government the UK gets. Scotland can't help you via the ballot box, maybe we can help you in other ways.
your belief in Westminster is admirable, but unfortunately not shared.molgrips - Member
What actions have you taken for democracy this week?
Um.. what? Why do you ask?I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...molgrips - Member
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.
We're not going anywhere. The mountains will still be here. The lochs aren't going anywhere. The MTB trails will be an good as ever. All that's changing is what government we have.
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...
Not at all. I'm trying to show you my point of view.
All that's changing is what government we have.
For you maybe. For me, what's changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can't you understand why that represents a loss to me?
athgray - Member
...Is it contempt or apathy that nationalist feel towards the UK workforce? It certainly is not a sense of solidarity.
No, it is bewilderment.
Many parts of the Uk face the same problems as us, but they have not organised and done something about it. You can't have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.
If there is apathy, it's not on our side.
Spot on - I think the crab bucket analogy is a good one here.
I get it, but you'll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.molgrips - Member
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...
Not at all. I'm trying to show you my point of view.
You can't have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.
Of course you can.
But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.
I get it, but you'll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.
So I should move ot Scotland? That's the answer?
Scotlands not your country,if it was,you would have a say in what happens to it.There; I dared.
For you maybe. For me, what's changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can't you understand why that represents a loss to me?
I can, but we can't help you at the moment. Maybe we can instead show by example.
But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.
Aye, you're right. There's plenty of grass roots campaigning, problem is, they're all voting for UKIP 😉
molgrips - Member
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
I will.
Scotland is not your country, just as England is not my country, Wales is not my country, and Northern Ireland is not my country.
If you want it to be your country you are welcome to come and live and vote here.
There's one thing Scotland can do to help - we can give the political establishment the biggest kick up the arse it's had in 300 years.
Once we do that, maybe the rest of the UK can seize the opportunity to change things.
Show by example?
So we should all somehow contrive to declare independence from Westminster? Lol ok.. not really an option though.
Scotlands not your country
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.
I can, but we can't help you at the moment.
No but you can at the next election.
epicyclo - Member
I could see the value of lowering corporate taxes to a certain extent. Many corporations based in Scotland currently are headquartered in London so pay their taxes there. A lower rate would attract them up here and the total tax take would be higher. I can see your point about a race to the bottom, but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
Why Scotland over Rep. of Ireland though?
No but you can at the next election.
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour? Yeah, right, we fell for that one before 😉
Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership? Perhaps you could even join in the campaigning, since we're talking about actual political activisim here.
Can't do any of that if you are not in the UK.
bencooper - Member
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour?...
You forgot the moral party - the LibDems.
Oh....
Yeah, right, we fell for that one before
Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership?
But that brings us back to the same problem that we're massively outnumbered - Labour has swung to the right because that's what wins elections, and even if a big number of Scots joined the party and moved it back to the left, it'd just start losing elections again.
A swing to the left is on the cards imo.
A swing to the left is on the cards imo.
I hope so, but the rise of UKIP doesn't look good.
The Yes campaign seems to think that if independence happens that just by lowering corporate tax then this will solve problems. If a business is based in Scotland and does the bulk of it's business in the UK, then there is a high risk that they will move to the UK after independence. Especially for the financial sector.
And why relocate to Scotland from the UK, will Scotland be competing with Ireland or Luxembourg for corporate tax levels? If this is the case then you could argue that big business has got control of the Scottish Government.
The other point that comes along is that Scotland becomes just another foreign country and is competing with other countries to supply the UK. Why should the UK buy power from Scotland if it can get it cheaper from France, why should ships be built on the Clyde when they can be built cheaper elsewhere in the world or built in the UK to create jobs.
By all means choose independence, but go in with your eyes open. While some may be fully aware of the impact, the Yes campaign seems to be a game of smoke and mirrors. Perhaps if it was honest about the risks then the mandate that it wants would be fully justified. If independence happens then I suspect many Yes voters are going to be surprised about the impact of the decision.
You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved. One legacy of the vote will be a split country, both inside Scotland and within the UK. Perhaps when this has all settled down, we should decide was it worth it.
Maybe this referendum will make politicans realise that people can give a shit if they think there's something worth voting for. I think it would be pretty easy for a Labour leader to ride the anti-fatcat sentiment and persuade a huge number of non-voters.
Now, how to persuade them of that..?
You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved.
Yes, and there's quite a few people saying that whichever way the vote goes the country won't be the same.
Unless I missed it, no one has commented on iScotland being unable to join the EU without a central bank?
At the end of the day, this is going to be a very, very close vote. The nature if the mandate will reflect this ie, neither side will be able to argue a convincing mandate. This is obvious since the reality is that devolved power within a bigger union is the optimum outcome. YS knows this, that is why they are clinging on to as much of the status quo as possible and the CU argument reinforces the message, albeit distorted to accommodate the vanity aspect rather than the interests of Scotland and the UK.
Before any more is spouted in the so-called privatisation is the NHS it may be worth confirming the levels of spending on private services on both sides of the border, Funny how Tories (sorry that was for yS convenience, should be coalition) and SNP patterns mirror each other yet one side is the defender while the other is the destroyer of the NHS. Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit.......
Futon it has come up many times and Rehn's intervention yesterday was noted - but details, details.....apparently unimportant!
Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit.
Yep. Because it's a nationalistic issue not an economic or pragmatic one. End of.
You're more than welcome to.molgrips - Member
So I should move ot Scotland? That's the answer?
But that brings us back to the same problem that we're massively outnumbered - Labour has swung to the right because that's what wins elections
Democracy isn't it Ben - I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?
Sturgeon's attempt to label Alexander as a Tory last night summed it up - little more than we don't like English Tories and we are prepared to sacrifice common sense and limit our futures on that basis (even though you copy many of their policies yourself). Utter bllx......
To make it clear btw, I don't share these nationalist thoughts, I am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it's futile.molgrips - Member
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.
Democracy isn't it Ben - I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?
It doesn't, which is why we should go our own way.