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Wan it is not just GO though it is the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all saying no to currency union as well as the majority of people in the UK according to polls. A currency union does not make sense to the UK I am afraid. I am sure there would be no problem setting up a Scots pound.
Have you ever negotiated with a Scottish person? I have very little doubt that the SNP does not want a currency union. They are probably playing a political game to try and show that the Westminster government are a bunch of nasties who want to screw Scotland over. From where I'm sitting it seems to be working.
The SNP are more likely to say there will be a currency union because it is such a big issue to Scots.
In truth the SNP does not care whether it gets a currency union or not. All it seeks is a cross against Yes, but they know the people of Scotland would like to keep the UK pound as it stands. Put forward the case everything will change, but nothing will change and all will be well.
BenRead it and weep
Ah, I get the confusion - I thought you were talking about the second quote I posted, about not being able to walk St Cuthberts Way any more.
Shows how hard it is to tell real from spoof posts from them...
I have very little doubt that the SNP does not want a currency union.
So should we treat all the main policy recommendation (especially those not only in the best interests of iS but also in the interests of the rUK apparently) in the same light. Perhaps we have indeed found some common ground after over 5k of posts!
ATG, it's the power they crave above all else hence the flip flopping in policies depending on the wind. Treat facts and the people of the Uk with equal disdain. Your right, wan, the tactic has had some success but fortunately not yet with the majority of your canny countrymen.
The thing that people really need to remember is that the question being asked later this year is not "Should the Scotland be an independent country governed by the SNP?", but "Should Scotland be an independent country?" Massive difference in those two questions, but people are tending to base their views on the SNP running an indy Scotland. The referendum question has bugger all to do with the SNP.
So should we treat all the main policy recommendation (especially those not only in the best interests of iS but also in the interests of the rUK apparently) in the same light. Perhaps we have indeed found some common ground after over 5k of posts!ATG, it's the power they crave above all else hence the flip flopping in policies depending on the wind. Treat facts and the people of the Uk with equal disdain. Your right, wan, the tactic has had some success but fortunately not yet with the majority of your canny countrymen.
As above, it's not about the SNP. I for one suspect that the SNP would be out on their ear post independence and we'd revert back to coalition governments.
There is a big difference between someone on a forum making an assumption and the potential government of iScotland doing the same and potentially misleading voters
I said both sides and you talk of one - why? There was me thinking you were biased eh. Both side means both sides ie yes /the scottish govt and no and the UK govt. Would you like to claim the UK govt has not done the same in the week when even the source criticised them for fiddling his figures? TO mention only one when i said both is to show your bias
No you took my comment and spun it in a negative manner away from the original meaning without answering or countering my assertion,
No i did not i simply replaced Uk with china and 6 th with 2nd
[b]The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world, they must be doing something right.
[/b]
China is second so they must to
It is not in any way shape or form a straw man [ I told you what it was] and your description of a straw man is poor
I will make it simple for you here
A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. [b]To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.[/b]
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition [b]by covertly replacing it with a different proposition [/b](i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition
The first of these would be impossible for me to do given I quoted you
The second was not done at all either
We will continue to disagree but at least learn what a straw man is if you wish to claim it was deployed.
The SNP are more likely to say there will be a currency union because it is such a big issue to Scots.
yes they are liars- they are politicians.
GO though it is the Conservatives, Labour and Lib Dems all saying no to currency union
Well who would not trust them when they say something eh 😯
Did you hear them this week [ ok lab were not involved in this] using figures that the source said they had abused by a factor of x 10 for an example of just how noble and honest they are
Leaks suggesting currency share is still on the table etc
It is almost as if they are lying politicians everywhere in all parties in all countries.
you need some serious blinkers to think one side is a paragon of truth telling virtue and the other lot liars
Junkyard you don't like to accept you are wrong do you. I accuse you of using a strawman and then I get a flood of them from you. 🙄
Did you hear them this week [ ok lab were not involved in this] using figures that the source said they had abused by a factor of x 10 for an example of just how noble and honest they are
Leaks suggesting currency share is still on the table etc
Oh so we should never believe any politicians ever because they have lied in the past. The leak from one person, supposedly Vince Cable, hardly negates what the others have said unless you are massively biased. Why is the currency union so important to you?
athgray. If you think Yes contributors responses have been balanced and reasoned you are deluding yourselfJunkyard. Is it your suggestion that two wrongs make a right -- TBH it is incredibly daft to attempt to defend your own behaviour by just criticising some others groups behaviour - not least when you have just done exactly what you accuse them of
JY, it was put forward by a Yes supporter that No views expressed were not balanced or reasoned, so for balance and reason, I expressed my opinion that Yes supporters views were not balanced or reasoned. Is there anything wrong with this? In all honesty I am not balanced on this subjest, but look at what I write. You may not agree with me, however plenty of reason goes into my posts on this subject. I reckon like you, both official campaigns leave a lot to be desired, however if people use Yes Scotland information in support of an argument, it is easy to knock it down.
Ben, few think we will not be able to go to Scarborough after a Yes vote, but what is sad is that it seems so many do not care to hear about scarborough. (I am a bit fond of Scarborough. Had good holidays there in my youth). I do not intend to come across as curt ben, however your posts come across as the most frustrating of all. You are clearly well versed politically, more so than myself, with plenty to add, and perhaps more links to proper information beind behind the Daily Fail style campaigns would be more useful than links to crass posters and adverts
Junkyard you don't like to accept you are wrong do you.
How would you know you have yet to prove I am wrong.
I accuse you of using a strawman and then I get a flood of them from you.
Yes that is exactly what has just happened here. it is not that your minor point was proved to be false, that you dont recognize a straw man when argument either - Man I told you what kind of argument it was 🙄
I only hope you can find it in your heart to be as compassionate as you are clearly wise.
[b]We will continue to disagree but at least learn what a straw man is [/b]
The leak from one person, supposedly Vince Cable, hardly negates what the others have said unless you are massively biased.
Two points
1. I said both earlier and you discussed one and you want to accuse me of bias
2. Its has got nothing to do with Vince as it was the treasury report.
I expressed my opinion that Yes supporters views were not balanced or reasoned. Is there anything wrong with this?
Only if you accept that it is true for [b]some [/b]on both sides. If you mean them all then yes it is just bias.
I reckon like you, both official campaigns leave a lot to be desired, however if people use Yes Scotland information in support of an argument, it is easy to knock it down.
So it is ok to use treasury figures but we should ignore only the yes campaign?
Clearly there are examples on both sides where the figures are nothing but spin and wishful thinking. Which you focus on is decided by your own views not really the facts presented.
Both sets of "official" figures are not things I would trust tbh
There are truths in some of what they both say and lies in some of what they both say as they are presented to serve a political agenda and manipulate to do such. They are, after all , politicians on all sides.
but what is sad is that it seems so many do not care to hear about scarborough
I do agree - in fact one of the few good cases to vote No that I've heard is that working-class people in Glasgow have more in common with working-class people in Manchester than they do with politicians in Edinburgh. I think it's a pity that the No case has been taken over by the Tories (and the Tory-wannabes who call themselves Labour), the socialist case for the Union is the only really positive case I've heard.
However, my answer to that is to ask why it stops at the borders of the UK. Why not include the working-class people of Madrid, Cologne or Marseilles? My other answer is that the system is broken, it's not fixable from within.
one of the few good cases to vote No that I've heard is that working-class people in Glasgow have more in common with working-class people in Manchester than they do with politicians in Edinburgh.
We plan to do a Crimea once you have independence
Insert AS/Putin joke here
The fact is that the UK has a very strong economy and Scotland currently [s]benefits from[/s][b] is part of[/b] it.
It will be a gamble letting wee eck loose with the Scottish economy and that is not an assumption.
Elections are always a gamble. Elections to a new assembly in a new state are even less predictable. Why assume that Salmond and the SNP would win them?
Don't you need your own currency and central bank to join the Euro?
I don't know, do you? Do you need to join the ECB to use the Euro?
[url= http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-browns-vision-scotland-ex-pm-3634763 ]Brown says Yes to currency union[/url]
The man who presided over the financial crash supports sharing the pound, so that settles the argument, it's a dumb idea that going to leave us all poorer. 🙂
Vote YES for the X£
Can this thread be deleted? Lot of people on it should do more work or spend time with their families!
I feel a special bond with this thread, clicking on it has become so much part of my daily routine that quite frankly I'm a little apprehensive about the period following the 18th of September.
Although hopefully the postmortem and obvious recriminations concerning what went wrong will extend its life beyond that.
Unless of course the nats get into a sulk after the 18th and don't want to talk about it.
If there's a yes vote then this thread should live on as a counter example to what we all said would happen vs what actually happened. I think we all know who'll have won 😉
Unless of course the nats get into a sulk after the 18th and don't want to talk about it.
On the 19th, if the vote is no, we take to the hills.
Sorry Ben, I don't think I'm getting out of bed on the 19th, regardless of the result
ernie_lynch - Member
...Unless of course the nats get into a sulk after the 18th and don't want to talk about it.
You know that Plan B that hasn't yet been revealed?... 🙂
But [url= http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2014/05/07/les-independantistes-ecossais-gagnent-du-terrain_4412782_3214.html ]the French don't think we will have too much of a problem[/url]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27670533 ]BBC link [/url]In case it's not been seen by all
michaelbowden - Member
BBC link In case it's not been seen by all
Oh dear, more fear.
Too bad, and if the EU does put us on ice for 3 years, I doubt there will be much enthusiasm for getting back in. Oil rich countries seem to do quite well on their own.
Or maybe Scotland could form a common market with another country leaving the EU... 🙂
On a more serious note, I have often wondered why the Commonwealth connection has not been more important to the UK than the EU. It seems to me that it presented far greater opportunities than Europe, and more so now with fast travel and communication, and it doesn't require the surrender of any sovereignty.
Business For New Europe (BNE) also claimed it would be "next to impossible" for Scotland to rejoin the EU on the UK's current terms.
And what are the chances of the UK being able to rejoin the EU on any terms, after the EU referendum takes the UK out of the EU?
The only chance Scottish businesses have of staying in the EU is if Scotland is independent - that way we won't be dragged out by the UK.
It may not be the only chance Ben but given the relative strength of Ukip in the rest of the UK compared to Scotland a Yes vote on September 18th seems a good way to stay in the EU.
Unless of course the nats get into a sulk after the 18th and don't want to talk about it.
Can we not get a vote so close they recount it numerous times before we get some ubber flouncing
The EU is expansionist in nature they do not want to loose any member IMHO
It is also risky politically, if iS leaves and flourishes as it will fuel the calls for other countries to leave
IMHO the EU do want them to join and I doubt anyone thinks they are incapable of creating a fudge that allows continued membership
Would be interesting if a member chose to vote against them but that is a lot of fisheries lost to the norwegian fleets 😉
The ukip is just a blip in England,they look like they are about to get a reality check in the by-election. I always wondered why we didn't have closer trade links with the USA TBH.(A serious one if anybody knows) France and Germany made sure that the UK couldn't be a dominant party in the EU/EEC before we were allowed in.
The anit EU element is fairly stable IMHO at about 25 %
the anti immigration vote is failry stable at about 6%
Combine the two and they do ok
I think the best they will achieve is to get the mainstream parties to implement UKIP ish policies re the referendum and "controlled" immigration
They themselves are a one issue party that cannot really go anywhere and are , IMHO, unlikely to become a genuine force in politics.
Interesting figures JY. Where did you get them from?
Duckman - the US is our biggest export market and our fourth biggest import market. We even have a balance of trade surplus with the US.
BBC Scotland have employed a serving politician, Kezia Dugdale as a presenter in the run up to the referendum. Imo BBC Scotland s claim to be impartial is on a very shoogly peg.
Dianne abott worked on BBC political programme This Week as did Alan Johnson now with Portillo as the counter point
Kezia Dugdale MSP will reportedly co-present a new BBC Radio Scotland show alongside pro-independence writer Andrew Wilson from 22 June.
Reports that Dugdale would present a purported replacement for the BBC’s Scottish current affairs programme Headlines first appeared on pro-independence website Bella Caledonia, which claimed the broadcaster was building towards “the biggest crisis faced by BBC Scotland since Zircon”.
It said the Labour MSP would present a programme called Crossfire.
But The Targe has heard that Dugdale will co-present alongside Andrew Wilson, who sat as a Scottish National Party MSP between 1999 and 2003.
The format means that both sides of the referendum divide – those advocating independence and those opposing it – will be nominally represented in the discussion of current affairs stories.
Yes that is really biased by the BBC there giving a voice to both sides.
[img] 
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Imo BBC Scotland s claim to be impartial is on a very shoogly peg.
Why ? Because they have employed a politician ? 😆
Here's another politician employed by the BBC
[img] 
?w=600[/img]
And here's one employed by LBC
[img] 
[/img]
[url= http://thetarge.co.uk/article/current-affairs/0293/labour-msp-to-copresent-bbc-show ]Labour MSP ‘to co-present’ BBC radio show[/url]
[i]Kezia Dugdale MSP will reportedly co-present a new BBC Radio Scotland show alongside pro-independence writer Andrew Wilson from 22 June.
The format means that both sides of the referendum divide – those advocating independence and those opposing it – will be nominally represented in the discussion of current affairs stories.[/i]
Sounds perfectly reasonable and quite interesting. What are you scared of ?
I am not afraid of anything Ernie. I dont think it is good practice for BBC Scotland to give a presenting role to serving politicians in the run up to the referendum. It is also strange that BBC Scotland only managed to get a serving politician from one side.
I don't see any problem with them employing a serving politician. Though tbh it's not like their partiality is in any doubt...
Can i go on record as saying this thread is unfair as it has opinions from all sides and therefore lacks balance
From wiki
andIn August 2012 the BBC Trust ruled that payments to Abbott for her appearances on This Week were made in breach of BBC guidelines that banned payments to MPs who were representing their political parties.
The Trust also said that Abbott had appeared on the show too often.
Shouldnt BBC Scotland be cautious in the light of those findings by the BBC trust.
gordimhor - Member....employed a serving politician
.....a presenting role to serving politicians
.....managed to get a serving politician
What's this "serving" politician obsession ? Why are you using this as a stick to beat the BBC with ?
Are you saying that if Tony Blair was presenting a programme on BBC he wouldn't be biased because he is no longer a "serving" politician ?
Are you saying that because Andrew Wilson, the SNP politician who is co-presenting the programme, is no longer a MSP he isn't really committed to independence and therefore not biased ?
Seriously ..... wtf? You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for muck to sling at the BBC. Which actually speaks volumes.
Even by your own admission the BBC Trust keeps a careful eye over any breaches.
Shouldnt BBC Scotland be cautious in the light of those findings by the BBC trust.
Exactly, I'm sure they are extremely cautious for the reasons that you give. And Kezia Dugdale won't be representing her political party.
Offering both sides of the independence debate is perfectly reasonable. Although you obviously aren't going to say that it is. Just like you "forgot" to mention that Andrew Wilson of the SNP would be co-presenting the programme.
Just as an aside,does having oil,WMD and a despotic leader mean that America has us on the list for regime change?
Oops, time to add those nasty bullies at the IFS to the list....
in the medium term, an independent Scotland’s public finances would be in a substantially weaker position than those of the UK, unless it were to undertake further spending cuts or tax rises on top of those already pencilled in for the coming years
Have they not read the script? Honestly, these people.......
" Austerity Alex" does have a ring to it though!
I have often wondered why the Commonwealth connection has not been more important to the UK than the EU. It seems to me that it presented far greater opportunities than Europe, and more so now with fast travel and communication, and it doesn't require the surrender of any sovereignty.
Because they don't have very much in common with each other economically, because they are far away, because a fair number of them are already in their own regional trade blocs, because most of them are even more poorly run than the EU that it's difficult to get anything done, and because WTO will take care o anything that's solely trade-related - which is what you seem gone interested in.
And Kezia Dugdale won't be representing her political party.
Oh, well, that's all right, then, if she's said that she won't let her party affiliation affect her journalism in any way, of course we have to believe her.
The IFS thing - they've taken a one-off big drop in oil revenues and extrapolated from that.
They also confuse SNP policies with independence. To be fair, so do the SNP in their white paper, but saying that SNP policies are unaffordable is [u]not[/u] the same as saying independence is unaffordable.
Now this is just getting silly. The SNP is in government and so their plans are all we have to go on. There's little enough in the way of credible financial foundations to the white paper without us having to vote on the basis of what some other government could do, particularly when the other parties which could form a government don't want independence.They also confuse SNP policies with independence. To be fair, so do the SNP in their white paper, but saying that SNP policies are unaffordable is not the same as saying independence is unaffordable.
Oh, well, that's all right, then, if she's said that she won't let her party affiliation affect her journalism in any way, of course we have to believe her.
It's absolutely nothing to do with what "she's said", as gordimhor has very helpfully pointed out the BBC Trust won't allow breach the of BBC guidelines that ban payments to MPs who are representing their political parties.
I have no idea what her co-presenter Andrew Wilson of the SNP "has said" concerning not letting his party affiliation affect his journalism, but I'm completely unworried about him being allowed to present a programme.
But then I'm not scared of Scottish independence debates. Although who knows, perhaps I would be if I felt my case was really weak.