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If you get yourself a USB pendrive you can "give Mint a try" without installing anything.
You are coming at this from the techie angle. When you go to the Mint homepage it offers you three 'versions' with either Cinnamon, Xfce or Gnome. This is a choice that someone like TJ won't be able to make...
Not clear to me what role price plays in that situation?
The reason PCs are cheap is because ever since IBM PCs were cloned, third parties have been making cheap components and peripherals in high volume, which makes buying and owning PCs cheap. Because Apple control the whole process they can enforce that better stuff goes into their computers and charge more for it. Essentially, there are high quality, middle market and cheap crap PCs - but there are no cheap Macs.
From a moral point of view though, Apple clearly could make Macs cheaper, or make better lower budget options - we know this because they are incredibly rich. They are gatekeeping their ecosystem by charging more for it and they are not making an effort to spread their allegedly superior system to the plebs. They are doing this deliberately to keep their premium image, and I think that's a bit shitty. People will say 'oh but it's no different to say Orange or Mercedes only making expensive stuff' but I disagree - you can do exactly the same things in a Ford as you can in a Mercedes, you can drive the same roads and park in the same places - your life is not diminished. However if MacOS really is materially better as I assume Apple believe, then it would be like Mercedes having special roads that only Mercedes drivers could drive on, or premium parking spaces and so on.
From a moral point of view though, Apple clearly could make Macs cheaper, or make better lower budget options - we know this because they are incredibly rich
I'm not sure giving away free stuff would be very popular with the Apple shareholders - that's not how capitalism works. Having said that, it's interesting that Bill Gates was once the Bad Guy, but he has been busy giving away his personal wealth, whereas Steve Jobs, once the rebel, now seems to have been a bit of an asshole.
From a moral point of view though, Apple clearly could make Macs cheaper, or make better lower budget options - we know this because they are incredibly rich
I'm not sure giving away free stuff would be very popular with the Apple shareholders - that's not how capitalism works. Having said that, it's interesting that Bill Gates was once the Bad Guy, but he has been busy giving away his personal wealth, whereas Steve Jobs, once the rebel, now seems to have been a bit of an asshole.
To be fair to Jobs, he was always the 'mover and shaker' the visionary, the marketer, if you like, whereas it was his partner, Steve Wozniac who was the tech guy behind the outfit. I don't think either of them could have made apple what it was without the other.
I'm not sure giving away free stuff would be very popular with the Apple shareholders
I didn't say they should give away free stuff? I think they could afford to make their stuff cheaper and/or make cheaper options.
I think that Microsoft and to a lesser extent IBM (possibly accidentally) are responsible for the explosion of availability of IT. When IBM made the first PC it was designed to be cheap so it used open architectures that could be copied - whilst they tried to stop people copying the BIOS they failed; and MS-DOS was available to buy separately. This created a huge market in even cheaper clones which allowed PCs to spread through society. And because of that, the internet took off. Then the fact that makers in China became so good at making cheap stuff you can now get a laptop for a few days' minimum wages. The fact that this hardware is so cheap also means that the Welsh Government for example can give a Chromebook to every school kid. Meanwhile Apple is for rich people still.
Not clear to me what role price plays in that situation?
Cynicism?
It you want to run Linux, you can pretty much do that on a Speak 'n' Spell. (A mate of mine has literally got it running on a Teasmade). If you want to run MacOS which is, as the previous poster said, pretty much Linux anyway only with a flashy front-end, you need to get your hand in your pocket. A "cheap Mac" doesn't exist, as Mols says.
When you go to the Mint homepage it offers you three 'versions' with either Cinnamon, Xfce or Gnome. This is a choice that someone like TJ won't be able to make...
Sure it is, this was my whole point. It doesn't matter, pick one at random. Play with it for an afternoon. Then hose it and pick another one.
In any case, the last time I touched Mint was pretty much when it first came out, I have no technical advantage in being able to make that choice. But after reading this thread it would be an easy decision, the answer is in here already.
The thing with linux is its getting better all the time, and it's now very easy to use for you average web surfing, media consuming user.
I'm running both windows and linux as I intend to fully transition over as one of my PCs, the one I’m using right now, and every day at my desk is not supported in Win11, only win10, and that’s EOL. And its a perfectly capable machine, but because it's a gen6 intel, it's e-waste according to microsoft..
I mean it's capable of running horizon 5 at 1440p at 70fps.. so hardly ready for the recycling center. The direction windows is going in, in terms of user accounts, and all the intrusiveness, updates that revert settings back without telling you, it's all the push I need to make the transition.
Meanwhile Apple is for rich people still.
I’m not sure, those new Mac minis look very reasonably priced and they don’t charge for os and seem to have pretty good free software pages,numbers etc for it 🙂
I think they could afford to make their stuff cheaper and/or make cheaper options.
I don't think you've really grasped this "business" thing. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing what their customers want. The evidence suggests that they've done it pretty successfully. If they sold budget range items, that would impact their main product line. Like-for-like Apple products are not very different price from their competitors, but if you don't want to pay for what they sell, other options are available, as you've said.
But this has nothing to do with with tj's query, so apologies for the digression. I was mostly just commenting on cougar's reflexive "Apple hater" remark.
Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing what their customers want.
Almost. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing what they've convinced their customers into believing what they want.
Apple kit has never been cheaper - the cost of our companies first IIfx and Apple LaserWriter in the early 1990s was knocking on £10k! And those were the days you had to convince your bank manager personally to lend you the money! 😀
A very capable M4 Mac Mini is £600.
Almost. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing what they've convinced their customers into believing what they want.
Almost. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing their shareholders profit, while additionally convincing their customers into believing what they want.
A couple of points on the Apple thing, I know I shouldn't but what the hell;
- I am sure some will disagree, but I thought it was generally agreed that when you compare like for like on specification, then Apple hardware is not really any more expensive than others. Obviously, when I mean 'like for like' I mean actually like for like in comparison of everything (eg. things like screen, trackpad, webcam speaker quality), not just the basic spec of screen size, RAM, SDD etc.
- As someone mentioned above, I distinctly remember every journo/YouTuber etc. across the board (not just the 'Mac' ones) raving about how the latest base model Mac Mini was the best value computer you could buy bar none.
- I would also mention that Apple are rumored to be introducing a low end MacBook running a phone-derived A18 chip. If true, that does suggest that Apple are interested in address markets below where they currently sit.
Almost. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing what they've convinced their customers into believing what they want.
True, but not everyone has the luxury of asking you what it is they really really want. Most of us have to trust our own judgement.
Almost. Apple have worked out where their optimum price is in terms of providing their shareholders profit, while additionally convincing their customers into believing what they want.
Yeah, that's what optimum actually means, for a business.
Apple kit has never been cheaper
Same for everything else too - everything is cheaper, but Apple is still relatively expensive.
The thing with linux is its getting better all the time, and it's now very easy to use for you average web surfing, media consuming user.
Literally just turned on my steam deck and it's refusing to connect to the same wifi network it's used for two years. The error message? "WiFi authorization supplicant disconnected". How is the average user supposed to know what to do here? Even more so when you consider that Valve control both the hardware and software aspect of this.
A very capable M4 Mac Mini is £600.
And a Mac Pro is "from" £7,200.
This article from 2019 is quite clearly ludicrous, but it shows that it's quite easy to cherry-pick in order to attempt to prove a point. I've spent less than that on enterprise-grade servers. Your Mini Money there wouldn't even cover the cost of the Apple monitor stand (sold separately).
Apple kit has never been cheaper
You could say that about pretty much all computing.
By way of comparison, your very capable M4 Mac Mini (which I note is also listed as "from" £600) is about the same price adjusted for inflation as the 48k ZX Spectrum was at launch.
Apple kit has never been cheaper
You could say that about pretty much all computing.
Of course, but most folk get paid in specified amounts of money, not equivalents of ZX Spectrums (Spectra?) so a computer that was "only for the rich" 20 years ago is now quite accessible since it's about the price of a Halfords city bike.
The thing with linux is its getting better all the time, and it's now very easy to use for you average web surfing, media consuming user.
Literally just turned on my steam deck and it's refusing to connect to the same wifi network it's used for two years. The error message? "WiFi authorization supplicant disconnected". How is the average user supposed to know what to do here? Even more so when you consider that Valve control both the hardware and software aspect of this.
I've no idea about steam OS or steamdecks I'm afraid.. I use the steam app/launcher on windows and linux but thats a different thing.
Have you tried turning it off and on again? 😬
The thing with linux is its getting better all the time, and it's now very easy to use for you average web surfing, media consuming user.
Literally just turned on my steam deck and it's refusing to connect to the same wifi network it's used for two years. The error message? "WiFi authorization supplicant disconnected". How is the average user supposed to know what to do here? Even more so when you consider that Valve control both the hardware and software aspect of this.
I've had that sort of thing happen on a windows laptop before - The average user solution? Buy a new router or a new laptop because you don't even get an error msg to work with.
I don't think you've really grasped this "business" thing
I think I do - that was my point. For them it's just business, and that is itself the problem. The thing is that they *could* do so much more, they just don't want to, they want to sit there and rake in cash.
I think I do - that was my point. For them it's just business, and that is itself the problem. The thing is that they *could* do so much more, they just don't want to, they want to sit there and rake in cash.
Well that's a whole bigger issue. A German guy wrote a book about it a couple of hundred years ago and triggered a big hoo-ha so I'm not sure we'll see the question resolved here.
I'm talking about a tiny bit of social responsibility not Marxism. There's a fair distance between those things - unless you're American.
Well that's a whole bigger issue. A German guy wrote a book about it a couple of hundred years ago and triggered a big hoo-ha so I'm not sure we'll see the question resolved here.
Who was alive around the same time as Ada Lovelace. Everyone give up coding!
BTW, Karl Marx and Ada Lovelace had an illicit relationship and the descendants of which, a few generations later, popped out Richard M Stallman.
I'm talking about a tiny bit of social responsibility not Marxism.
Well you’re talking about the purpose of capitalism. I’m the last person to be defending Big Tech, but it seems a bit daft to suggest that it’s Apple’s responsibility to make cut price kit for folk who don’t want to pay the price for premium gear. If Apple were keen on social responsibility they’d pay their taxes. That would be a more sensible way to use the profits they generate.
@tjagain You mentioned Unix and windows and then someone added some petrol by mentioning Macs and here we are. Toasting fork and a muffin or crumpet anyone?
i asked what the reason was for the change. answer there came none.
if the OP is buying a new system then age of processor and lack of TPM are irrelevant, so just pay the (tiny) licence fee and crack on with windows. if you're looking for EvilCorp MS are some way down the list these days IMV.
if you want to keep on with older hardware that falls through the cracks on TPM and/or age of processor then look at massgrave. windows 10 activated and supported for security updates for a few years, duration depending upon which version you land on.
otherwise crack on with some version of linux.
seems like there's no shortage of offers of help here?
Having played with Zorin OS for the last couple of days (including Zorin Connect which is just witchcraft tbh) I prefer it to Ubuntu Cinnamon which I had been using, bit more intuitive with more useful bundled apps.
Once you move past considering thinking about thinking of upgrading TJ, you should definitely think about considering this!
it seems a bit daft to suggest that it’s Apple’s responsibility to make cut price kit for folk who don’t want to pay the price for premium gear.
Social responsibility is a thing. I don't think it's bad to wish for more of it? It's not for people who don't want to pay full price, it's for people who *can't* pay full price. They do exist.
i asked what the reason was for the change. answer there came none.
He did say - it's because he doesn't want to fund Microsoft. We told him that it's impossible to avoid big evil IT companies these days, he said that he knows this but it's a small gesture that's important to him to make, which seemed to satisfy the thread.
Social responsibility is a thing. I don't think it's bad to wish for more of it? It's not for people who don't want to pay full price, it's for people who *can't* pay full price. They do exist.
Excellent plan. Personally I can't afford full price for a Rolls Royce. If only they were socially responsible and sold their cars for less. Now I think of it, I'd like a Rolex. Really, if you want to take a pop at Apple, for whatever reason, there are more sensible things to target.
Personally I can't afford full price for a Rolls Royce. If only they were socially responsible and sold their cars for less
You're missing the point. If you're in a Rolls Royce or a Dacia, you use the same roads and park in the same car parks and everything is the same. You do not get entry into the Apple walled garden unless you have a Mac. It is like a different set of roads and car parks, it's exclusive hotels and shops, it's gated communities and so on. If you like that idea then I'm not sure you are going to get my point.
if you want to keep on with older hardware that falls through the cracks on TPM and/or age of processor then look at massgrave. windows 10 activated and supported for security updates for a few years, duration depending upon which version you land on.
It seems somewhat perverse to me that a suggested solution to the OP - who is objecting to using Windows on moral grounds - is to carry on using it only illegally.
A lot of people think that if you disagree with a company on moral grounds that makes it ok to steal from them.
You do not get entry into the Apple walled garden unless you have a Mac. It is like a different set of roads and car parks, it's exclusive hotels and shops, it's gated communities and so on.
It really isn't. It's a computer, dear. Other computers are available at different price points. But I can see you've got a bee in your bonnet about Apple, so I'll let it lie here.
That post looks a bit unpleasant, not sure it was called for.
We seem to have gone a bit off-topic, but getting back to the OP’s question; I’ve been using Linux Mint on an old PC for a few years and for most tasks I can’t really see how it is any harder than windows. It’s a graphical user interface like any other and if all you want is a browser and office applications then you have basically the same browser choices as any PC and the open office stuff is fine for all normal tasks. You can even run the browser versions of MS office applications (and store files on OneDrive) which is handy if you are switching between Linux and windows boxes.
Occasionally I have to edit an MS office document that uses some fancy features that seem to require proper MS office applications and there are still some bits of software that only seem to be available for windows or Mac, which is annoying, but they are pretty rare these days.
Yeah this is true roverpig, the issue is when you want to do something else. Syncing with a Garmin was the big pain a few years back, but that has been alleviated with modern wi-fi enabled Garmins.
Having played with Zorin OS for the last couple of days (including Zorin Connect which is just witchcraft tbh) I prefer it to Ubuntu Cinnamon which I had been using, bit more intuitive with more useful bundled apps.
Have also been trying Zorin OS. Really nice to use and flies along on my 6-year-old Thinkpad. It still can't share the TPM with Windows though.
But I can see you've got a bee in your bonnet about Apple
Maybe a thread about open source operating systems is the wrong crowd for singing the praises of Apple 🤣
I think I've found a keeper..
Bazzite KDE (not the Gnome version)
HDR works!
Bluetooth to Xbox pad works!
It's very windows-esque if you prefer that sort of user interface.
I'm just about to fire up forza horizon 5 via steam client (car racing game) so that will be the acid test...
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Errrmmmm - I discovered why my pc was running badly - the fan was blocked with dust bunnies. 🤣
Other than that which rather shows my level of PC skills what I have decided is to buy a secondhand computer and try mint with that but haven't got any further
sorry
Installed something, but had to edit a config file and is now stuck in Vim/NeoVim forever, and can't exit? 😉