[Closed] Oooo am I going to get a visit from the police?

Compared to what countries are our driving standards awful? IIRC we have some of the safest roads in the world.

There is a difference between driving standards and safe roads.

Lane hogging and tailgating would be less of a problem if people obeyed the speed limits.

Not true, most lane hogging is caused by people sitting at 60-65mph in the middle lane when the inside lane is completely clear. Tailgating happens at all speeds.

Cougar. Let me put it this way. If there was a branch of physics called 'queue theory' it would state the the definition of a queue is a group of people waiting for a constrained resource. The number of accesses you have to that resource defines how many queues you have. If there is only one door, one lane, one till, one runway or whatever then you only have one queue ( for the purposes of defining who takes their turn at getting to that resource.) If there are two lines of traffic, waiting to get into one lane, there is only one queue.

Imagine in your new "queue theory" that two people further back in the queue are arguing about who was first. Thus the cashier is standing idle waiting for them to resolve their dispute.

That is a queue that hasn't merged in turn. The cinema analogy stands up and you are wrong. MERGE IN TURN

[quote=Markie ]Lane hogging and tailgating would be less of a problem if people obeyed the speed limits.

Good call. So if we have lots of speed cameras to stop people speeding we can stop worrying about those, because they're not dangerous at 70?

[quote=jfletch ]Imagine in your new "queue theory" that two people further back in the queue are arguing about who was first. Thus the cashier is standing idle waiting for them to resolve their dispute.

Analogy fail - there isn't a cashier standing idle.

90% of the time on roundabouts I end up going first as the person with right of way has to figure out a) whether they have right of way, not difficult but can take up to a minute and b) if it is polite to go yet, another 30 seconds or so.

Doubly so at mini-roundabouts. The number of people who have no concept of how to deal with them so just think "I'll let everyone else go first." Which is admirable, but stupid, because the people who know you've got right of way will sit there looking at you rather than (jump the queue and) go first.

Something I read on the Internet a bit back, "arrived at a mini-roundabout 30 minutes ago at the same as three other drivers... we're still here!"

Analogy fail - there isn't a cashier standing idle.

That would be the lane they've just blocked off, I guess?

Regardless, whilst I'm fond of the occasional analogy, I'm not sure that stretching them to destruction and picking holes in them is particularly constructive. Ultimately, there is no cashier because it's a bloody road.

If there was a branch of physics called 'queue theory'

Well many people have spent many years researching this in maths and computer science for the purposes of multi threading and parallelisation of tasks.

If it were a single resource and the time taken to get through the bottleneck was the only constraint then it would be correct to have a single queue (simply due to scheduling overhead), but there are multiple constraints including the length of the queue which we would like to minimise, and so we have multiple queues and ideally a cyclic scheduler.

I.e.

Use both lanes, merge in turn, and stop being bad at driving.

The cinema/cashier comparisons are right. The place you're trying to get to is the room with the big screen on it, not the cashier. The two cashiers are the two lanes, at some point you merge into one 'lane' to file through the theatre doors and find your seat.

So there's a queue on the left that's 50 deep and and a cashier with no one to serve on the right. At some point you'll 'merge' with the folks to your left, but why would you get on the queue for the busy cashier if there's one free already?

Edit: or at the airport, there are two hand luggage scanners leading in to one metal detector. Everyone has to go through the metal detector but you should use both luggage scanners.

Analogy fail - there isn't a cashier standing idle.

Care to expain?

Two idiots arguing. Till empty.

The issue with the till analogy is that a till transaction takes a long time but going through a single lane doesn't so it's not the exactly the same scenario.

The reason merging in turn is faster for everyone isn't the last minute nature of it but the order. One car from each lane like a zip. The act of moving from two lanes to one is more effiecent when done in this orderly fashion, rather than the chaotic way it happens in most queues, with people braking to get in the queue ASAP and others tailgating to not let them in.

To facililtate this zipper type effiecient merge it's necessary to a agree the point at which everyone will do it, hence the "in turn" bit as its easily definable rather than some arbiatry point before the constriction (with the added benefit that the queue doesn't block junctions).

So to pull this back out to the cinema queue; for it to match a traffic queue, everytime 2 people reach the one till they jostle for position, argue who is next while the cashier sits idle waiting for one of them to approach the till. This arguement can happen at any place in the queue, even the back, and since the arguement takes longer than to be served by the cashier the queue is slower overall. Arguing becomes the rate limiting step, not being served. And becuase we are all obsessed with queuing but also stopping others getting infront of us we do this silly charade outside in the rain. What a bunch of tools.

Edit: Bails' take on the analogy also works.

Edit: Bails' take on the analogy also works.

Course it does. Cos it's exactly what I said in the first place. (-:

As a variation on a theme, I used to have to join the M42 eastbound at junction 2 in the morning, invariably, the motorway itself would be at walking speed and you'd have to queue on the slip road to join. Equally invariably, you'd get people who would hop onto the hard shoulder of the slip road to leg it round the two queues of traffic on the slip road waiting to join the motorway. Used to do my nut in, can't see it as anything but pushing in, gaining themselves maybe ten or twenty seconds at the expense (albeit very slight expense, but that's not the point!) of everyone else queuing.

I guess that this thread is an easy way to separate those drivers who know the highway code and are confident behind the wheel from those that are not. Judging by the large number of people queuing in the left hand lane in these sort of situations I'd say that the majority on the road could do with some more training and education.

Bring in mandatory retests and driver education every 5-10 years or so I'd say. Focus drivers attention at this stage on the most common problems (tailgating, lane discipline, observation, appropriate speed for conditions, etc).

At the very least, if these drivers were better educated, this would stop them getting their knickers in a twist every time they observe someone else doing something that they themselves should actually have been doing according to the highway code but didn't because they couldn't be bothered to make the effort to learn it themselves.

Equally invariably, you'd get people who would hop onto the hard shoulder of the slip road to leg it round the two queues of traffic on the slip road waiting to join the motorway. Used to do my nut in, can't see it as anything but pushing in, gaining themselves maybe ten or twenty seconds at the expense (albeit very slight expense, but that's not the point!) of everyone else queuing.

If they're using the hard shoulder then that's not really on, but if they can do this without using the hard shoulder then fair enough I'd say.

Some people just can't merge and try to merge at the earliest point on the sliproad at the slowest speed possible. Generally this results in them and everyone else grinding to a halt, rather than using your brain and using the full length of the sliproad if needbe as intended, matching your speed and position to slot into a gap at the appropriate place with ease.

Don't see why I or others should be delayed by these numpties who cause un-necessary delays for everyone else. Probably better to get past them quickly on the sliproad rather than sit behind them for miles once on the motorway as they refuse to use their mirrors or budge from the middle lane.

Bit like the que to the bar or the ski-lift. - If theres is an available bit of floor / snow you use it.
Having said that - Its amazing how many people are unwilling to let a car and carvan filter in front of them from the 'outside lane'.

Lane hogging and tailgating would be less of a problem if people obeyed the speed limits.

Good call. So if we have lots of speed cameras to stop people speeding we can stop worrying about those, because they're not dangerous at 70?

Nope. IME (and LHS disagrees with me above), what many call lane hogging is in fact people traveling at the speed limit. Likewise, where I see tailgating it tends to be someone up the backside of someone who is driving at the speed limit.

Markie - You know you can still respect the speed limit without sitting in one lane while the 1, 2 or 3 lanes to your left are empty.

Some people just can't merge and try to merge at the earliest point on the sliproad at the slowest speed possible.

They're the same ones who get onto a two lane slip road and immediately carve across to the right-hand lane, presumably because they'll get onto the motorway "quicker."

what many call lane hogging is in fact people traveling at the speed limit.

What many people call travelling at the speed limit is in fact people [i]thinking[/i] they're travelling at the speed limit or just below.

I see them all the time. They'll join the motorway, dive straight through the first lane without pause straight into the middle lane, start their little "it's a limit, not a target" mantra, and do a nice, steady, safe 65mph for the next 100 miles until they're faced with the trauma of having to exit the motorway, the "landing the helicopter" stage of their journey.

In reality, after you've factored in the fact that most speedometers will over-read by 5%-10%, these mouth-breathers' nice safe "I'm doing almost the limit, what's the problem" speed will be somewhere in the high 50s / low 60s and they've effectively reduced the entire motorway to one lane with a rolling roadblock.

Learn to drive or take public transport. Seriously, if this is you, stop being a smug self-righteous "I'm all right and bollocks to the rest of you" git and book yourself a course.

Yeah, and if the person tailgating is behind somebody travelling at the speed limit, then clearly they are obeying the speed limit.

Some people just can't merge and try to merge at the earliest point on the sliproad at the slowest speed possible.

I try not to let it bother me, but this gets me every single day on my commute. It not only holds up all the other people trying to merge behind them, but also slows the motorway traffic to a crawl and someone slows to let them in. I'd say this one thing alone accounts for about 90% of the slow moving traffic on my commute.

As soon as the line stops being a solid white line, they're sat there almost stationary with their indicator on, with 200m of empty slip road ahead of them 🙁

I guess that this thread is an easy way to separate those drivers who know the highway code and are confident behind the wheel from those that are not. Judging by the large number of people queuing in the left hand lane in these sort of situations I'd say that the majority on the road could do with some more training and education.

Bring in mandatory retests and driver education every 5-10 years or so I'd say. Focus drivers attention at this stage on the most common problems (tailgating, lane discipline, observation, appropriate speed for conditions, etc).

At the very least, if these drivers were better educated, this would stop them getting their knickers in a twist every time they observe someone else doing something that they themselves should actually have been doing according to the highway code but didn't because they couldn't be bothered to make the effort to learn it themselves.

+1 Nicely put.

I think everyone agrees that the merge 1-2-1-2 works well like a zip so long as every sticks to it. The problem occurs when instead it becomes 1-2-1-234-1-23 and then things don't work as intended and before long there is foreskin stuck in the zip, lots of yelling and aggression whilst the bellend behind the wheel is oblivious to problems they have caused others so long as they have gained that extra cars length.

I guess that this thread is an easy way to separate those drivers who know the highway code and are confident behind the wheel from those that are not.

Clearly no one thinks we do as the HC says so you can either join the queue or jump the queue.
FWIW it says

You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed.

You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed. In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed.

if we zipped [ I have been convinced we probably should ] i would join in but we dont so i do what drivers do

when you have seen the sign you know to change lane you have been directed and some folk are waiting till you have no choice and your lane disappears.

Could you give me an example of one of these "you must all plough in to lane 1 immediately and ignore the rest of the road" signs? I don't believe I've ever seen one.

Ever noticed how those driving slower than you are dawdling and those driving faster than you are lunatics?

😉

Could you give me an example of one of these "you must all plough in to lane 1 immediately and ignore the rest of the road" signs? I don't believe I've ever seen one.

One (or more) of these on a motorway? IIRC they're showing that you 'MUST NOT proceed beyond this sign in this lane' (according to THC)

[img] [/img]

Yeah, fair point and you're not wrong there, that's exactly what they mean.

But, that's a wholly different situation to the one we're talking about. It's probably directing relatively high-speed traffic (depending on conditions) so the "zip merge" approach doesn't apply, and if hypothetically it did then that'd be the merge point with preceding signs advising you to change lanes ahead of the imminent lane closure.

The big red x does mean "lane closed" and you should merge imediately. This causes queues because the chump inside you on seeing the lane closed will suddenly switch from being happy with being slower than people overtaking to agressively defending his position due to the British desire to maintain queue etiquette despite the ludicrousness of it.

[img] [/img]

Means the lane closes in 800m. That's it.

There is an interesting discussion [url= http://globonsomeday.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/metrication-and-improvement-of-road.html ]here[/url] about how signs have been changed to encoruage this behaviour from the left hand version which encoruaged early merging with its "Get in lane" marking to the right hand version which clearly indicates to people that they need to merge in 800m

[img] [/img]

If only Jamie was here - he could photoshop that last sign to the OP's rules, with the left arrow becoming fatter and stopping the right hand arrows half way up 😉

I thought my post might cause a few replies as I was being a little devil's advocate. We are a nation of queuers and I'd love to merge in turn. But how close to the merging point do you get before you change lanes? Easy if the traffic ahead is moving at a reasonable pace. So you pull in with plenty of space to match the traffic speed ahead, then some flash harry barrels down the outside and cuts in at the last minute 'merging in turn' according to some people's interpretation of THC. It goes against the grain, in this country's at least, sense of fairness and politeness. In situations like the A61 where most of the queuing is done by the same people most days, unwritten rules seem to develop as everyone knows the situation ahead, so all take their positions in the queue depending where they were, say a quarter mile back. Where there's a risk of blocking junctions in slow moving traffic it would be daft not to use all the available space and I will happily pass queuing cars if that's what's happening. A better engineering solution might be a solid white line down the middle a fair way before the merge point and merge now arrows before the pinch point. Then everyone knows where they stand and aren't second guessing other's sense of reasonableness.

Markie - You know you can still respect the speed limit without sitting in one lane while the 1, 2 or 3 lanes to your left are empty.

In my experience, it's more likely that the person driving at the speed limit is overtaking, but not quite quickly enough for the impatient tailgater.

That was definitely the case down the A42 yesterday evening.

Then everyone knows where they stand and aren't second guessing other's sense of reasonableness.

Trouble is, they should now, but they don't. Shifting the second guessing /merge point back won't do anything to help, it'll just take up more road.

I'm visiting from out of town. Could you tell me where I could find a copy of these unwritten rules then I know what to do when I get there please?

I'd hate to fail to block off half the road like everyone else, what will people think of my manners?

Shifting the second guessing /merge point back won't do anything to help, it'll just take up more road.

Precisely. You're taking a single point merging and replacing it with another single merging point further back.

The only way your solid line idea would work is if you had the solid white line all the way to the back of the single-lane queue. Ie, turn all the dual-lane roads back into single lane roads country-wide.

But how close to the merging point do you get before you change lanes?

Err, right at the point the lanes merge, it's not rocket science - see Highway Code.

It goes against the grain, in this country's at least, sense of fairness and politeness.

Really? Which grain is that? Would you consider following the Highway Code to be against the grain? Where it it polite to double the length of the queue by staying left blocking all the side roads in the process?

In situations like the A61 where most of the queuing is done by the same people most days, unwritten rules seem to develop as everyone knows the situation ahead.

Do they? I'd expect people to follow the Highway Code, not some obscure and unwritten rule dreamed up by people who think they know better? "After you, no after you, no please after you, no I insist after you", really, are you sure? no, don't think I could, after you? . . . . meanwhile the whole system shudders to a halt 😯

I think my white line idea has been misunderstood, it finishes before the merge point so it forces two lane queuing. You have to make your lane decision whilst still hopefully travelling at a decent pace. Nobody cuts in halfway down the queue to be leapfrogged by the bumper-hugger behind. The only decision you need to make is which lane to be in, isolating you from having to judge who's gained an unfair advantage.
Oh, and I don't think they let out-of-towners into Alfreton anyway 😉

So the solid White line idea is basically for people who don't know how to do it properly already, because they haven't educated themselves (or been educated) on the right way to do it.

What makes you think they will understand what a solid white line means they should/shouldn't do ?

I think my white line idea has been misunderstood, it finishes before the merge point so it forces two lane queuing.

Except, it won't, it just means that then everyone will try to get into the left hand land before the white line starts, because as demonstrated over seven pages, a lot of people are stubborn.

because they haven't educated themselves (or been educated) on the right way to do it.

Or because they have been eductated but are still going to do it anyway because they can't handle the fact that they've been doing something wrong (and getting angry at people who've been doing it right) for a couple of decades. There's a few on this very thread who've said just that.

Fair point.

Either way, they will continue to do it wrong, either knowingly or otherwise.

If drivers decide to use the left hand lane early than that's their own tough luck. It would also prevent visits from the police as it would stop drivers self-policing the queue.

That's the problem though.

It's always a left hand lane "early adopter" who decides to self police those of us who know how to do it properly.

And then moan about it on a bike forum 😉

My mate had just one of these self-rightous upholders of the the queue twunts a few cars in front of him in an HGV straddling 2 lanes to prevent overtakers. The HGV had obviously pissed off the car directly behind him who eventually got past him by overtaking on the grass. Said driver then pulled in front of HGV and HGV driver started getting out of his cab. 6ft++ driver of car got out of vehicle and 'helped' HGV driver out of his cab, accompanied by a smack in the teeth. HGV driver then proceeded to run back along the queue to ask for witnesses, funny enough my mate hadn't seen a thing.
Use both lanes of the road and merge in turn when the two lanes become 1. Shame we don't all have to re-take our tests every few years to weed out these idiots that persist in moving over at the slightest whiff of a lane closure and then getting irate if anyone decides to go past them.

Yeah, because smacking someone in the mouth is better than stopping people merge in turn.

Mate of mine once had a similar altercation with a HGV.

Said HGV driver made an attempt on his life by throwing his truck at him, forcing him off the motorway onto the hard shoulder and then keeping going to try to stuff him into the Armco. My mate slammed on, lorry driver did likewise. Both jumped out to have an exchange of views.

My mate's opening gambit was to smack him in the puss. The lorry driver clapped his hands together, went "excellent!" and rang the police to (successfully) press assault charges.

Careful with your road rage, guys.

Followed this and held my peace so far. For me, the most important points raised have been; you cannot legislate for the behaviour of others, on both sides of the argument. It is inbuilt in the British psyche to mostly continue behaving in the left hand lane manner, regardless of rights or wrongs.Some of us are obviously so bored that we'll read seven pages of bollocks on and off without even chipping in.