OP: If you've any rocks on cord, I'll take them.
@Cougar. Avoid using a Krab, as you are just adding another potential failure point into the system. Unlikely I know, but leading outdoors where you might be thrutching and groveling there is a very small chance the gate could open. There will be the obvious exception when using an auto-belay - if your local wall has them.
+ potential 3 way loading
Some 'mercans do use crabs when leading big walls, but would generally use 2 together to minimise the risk.
I sold all my old gear a couple of years back on ebay, clearly stated its was well used
Son (16-19) didnt have brake rope tight and it slipped his grasp.
Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.
Surprised the Depot Staff wouldn't have picked up on someone being introduced to the matting from 10m.
I got chastised for this at a climbing wall a little while ago. I can tie a figure of 8 through a screwgate in probably under three seconds but they wanted it threading through everything. Their gaff their rules, but if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it’s safe to climb on, surely. “Heavily worn” is the problem here.
It's not that it's their rules, it's what's best practice. Yes, in a top roping situation you are not going to snap a belay loop but most harnesses are designed to tie in through waist belt and leg loops so that's how you should do it, just get into the habit of doing it the right way.
There is also a slightly greater risk of inverting if you tie in via the belay loop on some harnesses. Again, unlikely to cause massive problems indoors but why not just use the kit the way it's designed and avoid all that?
Harnesses designed to tie in through waist belt and leg loops usually have reinforcement on these but lack similar reinforcement on the belay loop. If you want to read a sobering tale of belay loop failure check out what happened to Todd Skinner.
As for clipping in with a carabiner that's a whole other can of worms. Just gonnae no.
Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.
Second that.
I have watched a group member pull as hard as he could on a GriGri lever when someone fell - if there was not a pair of back up folk holding the tail and an instructor stood by, it could have been interesting.
Many newer belay devices seem to favour smoothness of rope paying in / out over 'grippy'...
have watched a group member pull as hard as he could on a GriGri lever when someone fell
There was a spell when lots of walls started using GriGris with groups because they looked safer. Then everyone realised that in the fully open position there was basically zero friction in a grigri so lots of people went back to using belay devices as even if you let go of the dead rope completely there is still quite a bit of friction in the system.
Just another thought about walls insisting on a full tie in instead of clip in or tie in through belay loop.
Lots of different experience levels at a wall and lots of people looking at what others are doing from different levels of experience. If a wall enforces best practice then everyone sees best practice and it becomes the norm. If they let people do stuff that's mostly OK but not best practice then less experienced climbers will see that and perhaps assume it's the thing to do.
Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.
I'm sorry, not going to let this past. Modern belay devices, such as the Mammut Smart, are absutely amazing. They are simple, intuitive and easy to transition to/from a normal Sticht plate type device.
The Grigri is not a modern device. It is over 30 years old. It is an absurdly overengineered, dangerous, unintuitive piece of shit.
I used to dislike Grigris intensely. Since being dropped from the 5th bolt, by my evangelical mate who had used his for 25 years, I despise them utterly.
But they are not modern devices.
We were at Windgather last night @scuttler. I'm easing my way back after a period away....house renovation followed by 5 months of injuries means that I've not climbed much in the past 9 months. It was brilliant to be back out last night though.....and suitably windy!
Ah, I get you. I thought you were speaking of friction losses in a system when someone falls.
Having been dropped once from the top of a wall, I can say that not only was my wife’s hand nicely burnt but so was her leg loop and leggings…
No, I was trying to envision how a rope could possibly wear out a harness whilst belaying.
I took a leader fall at a climbing wall once. It was greater than 2x because I had a chunk of slack in the system, my foot squirted off a hold whilst trying to clip in. You probably heard me.
@Cougar. Avoid using a Krab, as you are just adding another potential failure point into the system.
Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances? With ill maintained gear or climbing perhaps, but it's surely the last thing that's likely to break under normal useage?
+ potential 3 way loading
When belaying? How?
Some ‘mercans do use crabs when leading big walls, but would generally use 2 together to minimise the risk.
You'd perhaps use two opposed snapgates together in the absence of a screwgate if you were desperate. Doing it with two screwgates feels a bit like wearing two condoms, it superficially sounds safer but is more likely to cause problems.
IMHO, etc.
I’m sorry, not going to let this past. Modern belay devices, such as the Mammut Smart, are absutely amazing. They are simple, intuitive and easy to transition to/from a normal Sticht plate type device.
The Grigri is not a modern device. It is over 30 years old. It is an absurdly overengineered, dangerous, unintuitive piece of shit.
Well, I've used a Grigri for 30 years. 😁 I agree 100% that it's counterintuitive and I wouldn't have a new climber belaying anywhere near it, but I reckon I've worked out how it works by now. The biggest drawback with it for me is if the rope suddenly goes slack after a climb it ****s you in the bollocks.
I'll have a look at that Smart, cheers for the tip.
took a leader fall at a climbing wall once. It was greater than 2x
Greater than 2x what?
When belaying? How?
You didn't say for belaying. You suggested using it instead of tying in.
Well, I’ve used a Grigri for 30 years. ....
but I reckon I’ve worked out how it works by now.
Mm yes. Exactly like my mate.
😁 I agree 100% that it’s counterintuitive and I wouldn’t have a new climber belaying anywhere near it,
Two good reasons why they shouldn't be used by anyone.
Right finished 'work'
Being driven to the Depot by the missus. Gotta get warmed up 🙂
@Cougar No chance I will get back into it. We’ve pared back outdoor stuff to just cycling and occasional hillwalking, which is a decision I’m happy with (canoe kit went a few years ago).
@boriselbrus only one sling, and the ropes went to the skip a couple of weeks ago, sorry.
@Marko There are some very old hexes which I’ve cut the cord from, and various nuts etc on wire. Also a couple of Bettabrakes, a fig 8 some screwgate and snap gate krabs (quickdraw tapes removed). If you want to pick them up from Blairgowrie, pm me for my address, otherwise they will be in the metal bin at the skip in a few days.
You probably heard me.
Did you have the Whillans harness on at the time?
Not seen anyone use it {bowline} for years.
Adam Ondra always uses it, I wonder if he'd get challenged at the local climbing wall. 😀
Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?
The issue with clipping in to toprope isn't screwgates failing, it's them being clipped in wrongly or not being screwed up and detaching.
Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?
Personally no, but the point is to minimise any potential weak points in the system, no matter how trivial it might seem to be.
I'm confused by the Grigri hate though. Nothing counterintuitive with it to my mind. Just don't touch the black handle, unless you are lowering a climber. Plenty of Petzl videos showing the correct usage.
Not seen anyone use it for years. I think the main advantage was that you could theoretically tie it with one hand?
I know a few folk that use bowlines regularly and one who never uses anything else. The main advantage is how easy it is to untie after a fall.
Walls almost killed it as it makes sense to teach beginners the fig8 but it's got plenty of applications.
I recently experimented with the 'competition knot' for tying in but ultimately went back to the old faithful fig8.
Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?
They can fail at remarkably low loads if loaded across the gate. There have been a few incidents with figure of eight descenders slipping round, putting a levering load across the gate and snapping it. We did this in the lab at ENSA once and it broke at less than 200kg.
Interesting reading this. I used to climb in the early 70s with a hawser laid rope round the waist, a bowline and two half-hitches and a second-hand pair of EBs. A Whillans was for the more opulent and beyond my means. Climbed mostly at Stoney Middleton but these days I rarely see anyone on it, too polished apparently.
Good luck to your daughter in all the comps. Looks like she is doing very well. I'm being asked by my son for a woody set-up too (pic of your 'den' on insta!). Thinking about in the garden with a shed type felt roof. Or similar. What i really want is a larger local shed to build one in. There's a few climbers here locally including a competing IFSC youth girl at our school (probably someone your daughter knows - Graz and Dallas last year etc). So probably enough of us to kit out a good woody if we can find a shed/outbuilding to rent. Or I build a small home one which is more convienient, but space limited. The latter is probably the likely outcome.
You didn’t say for belaying. You suggested using it instead of tying in.
Apologies. How are you going to get a three-way load on a crab between two points of contact - a harness and a rope - when climbing? Am I missing something here?
I cut up old ropes/cord to lengths that were unusable for climbing but still ok for shelter building, games and knot tying, and donated to local scout group with some carabiners.
I made it clear that they were not suitable for climbing and they happily took them for other activities
Why are you so keen to defend poor practice Cougar? Why would you do anything other than tie in to your harness the way the manufacturer intended?
Eh, I'm not "keen to defend" anything. Rather I'm not seeing the issue beyond some fringe cases. I'm not saying others are wrong, I'm asking them to explain why I am (and I probably am).
There's a risk of a three-way load - how?
The crab might turn when using a rapelling device - well, I'm not using a descender when climbing so it's not relevant.
The belay loop could snap - OK, fair, but the same could be said of the belayer. How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?
Someone said it's one extra thing to fail. Again, fair, but surely that's way less likely than the webbing failing?
How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?
Definitely a 3 way loading there.
How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?
That's exactly where the three way loading can occur.
For my previous conment I should have said cross loading rather than 3 way.
Eh, I’m not “keen to defend” anything. Rather I’m not seeing the issue beyond some fringe cases.
As I've pointed out the risk is people clipping in wrongly and there have been many accidents because of this. The other issue is inexperienced climbers seeing it and adopting it without realising the risks.
It's just a total nobrainer, use the safety kit the way it's designed to be used.
Chris Bonington once told my wife off for not wearing a helmet on a North Wales multipitch.
That's partly my fault. BITD I was climbing at Cheddar with Chris, Joe Brown and others celebrating an anniversary of his Coronation St route. I took a bit of a tumble and broke my Joe Brown helmet. After seeing this, Chis was convinced about the benefits of wearing a climbing helmet.
As for trusting old kit, when I started I was using 'War Department' karabiners that apparantly had originally been issued to commandos during WW2. (still got a few in the attic)....
For my previous conment I should have said cross loading rather than 3 way.
Fair.
The other issue is inexperienced climbers seeing it and adopting it without realising the risks.
Also fair.
I’m a bit confused about this TBH. Tied in directly there’s not a lot of rope movement as a climber other than creating the initial knot which isn’t under load.
My understanding is that when you're lead climbing the rope does move arond a lot wrt where it's tied into. While this isn't under load it can cause wear.
I know this all seems a bit 'fringe case' stuff, but in a lot of cases failure of equipment is really high consequence. As such the guidance takes some unlikely but not impossible scenraios into account.
My understanding is that when you’re lead climbing the rope does move arond a lot wrt where it’s tied into. While this isn’t under load it can cause wear.
I've got a lightweight harness I use for winter climbing with no reinforcement around the waist belt where the rope goes. After 5 years of winter use it showed no visible wear. I used it for some sport climbing on a trip to the Alps and it was showing wear within 3 or 4 days. A lesson in how quickly webbing can wear with movement and load.
Experienced enough looking father took a fall from 2/3rd 15m walls. Son (16-19) didnt have brake rope tight and it slipped his grasp. Father fell from about 10m with son trying to grasp the rope. Father landed incredibly well and son stood there looking at his burnt hands.
The way that almost all belay devices 'fail-dangerous' rather than fail safe I find horrifying for exactly this reason. And yet no-one in the climbing community seems to care in the least. It's one reason I stopped doing it.
The way that almost all belay devices ‘fail-dangerous’ rather than fail safe I find horrifying for exactly this reason. And yet no-one in the climbing community seems to care in the least.
It's not that climbers don't care, plenty of work has gone into designing safer devices. The issue is that what a belay device needs to do can be pretty complex and it's thus far proven difficult to design something that offers a guaranteed catch and also meets all the other parameters.
Aside from none other than Chris Bonnington telling a mate of mine many many years ago that he was going to die, I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone tie in with a bowline.
I used to for variety, but always with a stopper not just the bowline.
Belaying with Krab through the belay loop and tie-in rope loop was considered good practice by the club.
It doesn't need to be guaranteed, just better than certain death if someone lets it slip for a moment.
just better than certain death if someone lets it slip for a moment.
If you're thinking about it in those kind of terms I'd suggest that climbing maybe wasn't for you in the first place!
Even a regular, old fashioned, tube style belay device won't lead to certain death if someone let's it slip for a moment and there are now lots of devices that offer far better 'fail safe' for some applications.
The way that almost all belay devices ‘fail-dangerous’ rather than fail safe I find horrifying for exactly this reason. And yet no-one in the climbing community seems to care in the least. It’s one reason I stopped doing it.
A Grigri will auto-lock like a seatbelt, it requires human intervention to override the brake. Which, of course, is its inherent weakness.
She has an insta account. lily.climbs
Had a quick look. Feeling old and weak and clumsy.
Which, of course, is its inherent weakness.
It is?
It is?
I'd say it's more of an essential feature than an inherent weakness.
thus far proven difficult to design something that offers a guaranteed catch and also meets all the other parameters.
That's what I love about the Smart. It's not guaranteed, but you'd really have to try to drop someone with one. It's also such a ridiculously simple design.
OK, it's an absute horrorshw with anything approaching 11mm furry rope, but then who uses 11mm rope these days...
And you also need to have the rope bag positioned right in front of you, but.....
That’s what I love about the Smart
I've not used one, sounds good.
Flog the hardware. Unless the wires are frayed nowt can go wrong. I use slings etc for all sorts of things. Aided a big tree last year with 30 year old etriers. My old static ropes are used for firewodd extraction although oe gets used to support a tarpaulin at a woodland BBQ venue. Tight as a bar using two 1970's Jumars.Harness for tree climbing but most are not old . Date from 1990-93. The 1980 Whillans doesn't get much use! Bought new 9mm rope in '93 before I left the retail trade. Nver took it out of its bag for 25 years and it was stored in a dry bue barrel. Now chopped in two and used as a winter walking/scrambling rope,
Now, what about my Terrors
