Who the **** goes to McDonalds and buys a salad?
My wife. She normally has the chicken salad as she has coeliacs. We maybe have McD once or twice a year if it's flying or long drive and there's nowt else.
BMI isn’t perfect but 100+kg is not skinny at that height.
You can see his ribs his body fat is that low but his BMI shows as overweight / obese
Crosshair makes a very good point actually. There's really no "one size" fits all and a person can be really healthy despite being slightly overweight or skinny and unhealthy but we know that and the problem is that most people in the UK aren't getting enough exercise.
There’s really no “one size” fits all and a person can be really healthy despite being slightly overweight or skinny and unhealthy
Yes they can be those things but I would put a very strong bet on most of the overweight people (not slightly overweight as that is not the discussion here) not being that healthy overall as it is a very good indicator of lifestyle and care about their own body.
this epidemic of obesity is going to cost the country hugely in treatment for diabetes and other illness. Its going to be crippling to the nhs
Yep. The government can either try and address the root causes of just put extra funding in to address the extra burden on NHS. Seeing that they will do neither of those things then not looking great is it.
but we know that and the problem is that most people in the UK aren’t getting enough exercise.
On page 2 of this thread there a picture of a milk shake that has more calories in it than a grown adult male needs in a day, and people on here are still thinking that if only folks moved a bit more, things would be fine.
Its going to be crippling to the nhs
In my practice (and I don't think we're outliers particularly) about 10% of our patient population has T2D, about 25% have hypertension, very few of those folks with T2 just have that though, it normally comes along with a festival of other LTC just for fun. We're now (just this week) having to send obesity data to the NAO.
At my annual checkup last week it was noted that I had slipped in to the obese category. As noted on the previous page obese evokes an image on morbidly obese, obese is now almost the norm. It shocked me and I'm going to do something about it.
I'm 6ft 3 and 104kg with 36in waist a bit of a gut and 2nd chin.
Too many drinking and snaking habits picked up during the pandamic. I don't expect to get back to a bmi of 20 ever again but 25 is a goal.
All of this is why do many pharma companies are aiming at anti glp medicines.
I just fear that with the advent of weightloss drugs that actually work it will just result in even less focus on people actually being a healthy weight naturally.
We will just end up with a huge number of normal weight unhealthy people instead
If the government were brave enough they would halve the cost of fresh fruit, vegetables, salad produce and fruit, then tax heavily (and I mean heavily) all 'treats', sugary drinks, snacks, chocolates, biscuits, cakes and anything else containing sugar, especially cane sugar.
It's about education, learning to cook (I batch cook mostly in a slow cooker or wok) and shopping carefully.
I very rarely use a supermarket as there doesn't seem to be much 'actual' food in these places.
Oh and ban the word 'treat'.
A cynic might think the current govt don't GAS about food quality, they're just thinking of a low health and high health insurance / treatment cost future w/o the NHS in it's past or current form. Libertarians try not to tell people what to do esp when the end result is something that can be profited from.
Agree with the idea of taxing some things but also subsidising some things to compensate. As has already been discussed cost is a significant issue as is convenience for those that are working multiple jobs and have no time. Strangely enough supermarkets have a role to play here as their own brand stuff is usually significantly cheaper and often tastier than branded stuff, but marketing means we often like to 'treat' ourselves by throwing money away
Obesity is associated with a higher risk of metabolic illness as above but not in a 1 to 1 ratio. So say around 60-70% of obese people have evidence of metabolic illness, compared to 20% of normal weight people (I don't have the exact numbers but they are about right). Therefore it seems it is possible to be obese and healthy (well, normal life expectancy etc) and it is certainly possible to be slim and unhealthy (any/all of the metabolic issues above). Most of the excess weight from obesity is in the form of subcutaneous fat (under the skin) which is relatively inert metabolically. A small amount is visceral fat (around the organs) - excess here causes metabolic problems - often it is only a few hundred grams extra.
- It is not clear that obesity/xs weight (subcutaneous) per se causes anything in particular, and may actually just be a cosmetic concern. It seems increasingly likely that most of the complications are related to metabolic illness (visceral fat), for which obesity (by BMI) is a risk factor (so not a cause as such).
- Maintaining weight loss is incredibly difficult long term (short term is relatively easy). Most of the evidence suggests the vast majority don't succeed long term without gastric bypass surgery (or perhaps the newer injectables though no long term data yet).
- Reversing metabolic illness and its complications is more straightforward and increasingly seems to be achievable longer term.
So we have this dual edged sword - weight is an easy measurements for the public to understand (the vast majority don't know their BMI so they use weight as a surrogate), and we talk about obesity as the problem and weight loss as the solution. BUT long term weight loss is largely not achievable by most. So we are really steering people to repeated/ongoing failure. On a 1-1 basis we can have this discussion and help people to understand their focus should be on lifestyle measures to reverse/reduce their risk of metabolic issues, rather than what is happening to their weight. But on a population level I've no idea how we make this shift.
Or looking at it in another way - in my experience people obsess about losing weight (which the evidence shows will only lead to failure), whereas even some of that attention given to metabolic factors would help them to live longer and better (and use less health/social/benefits services etc), but may or may not induce significant weight loss. Working with patients I only track their lifestyle, BP and metabolic markers (bloods) - I don't track their weight at all as outside of their cosmetic concerns I don't think it adds anything to the picture. Many still will struggle with the idea that if they are not losing significant weight then they are not getting the benefits.
"Germany and France are a lot closer to the UK than you might imagine. When I last looked the UK was 27% Germany 25% and France 22%."
"Obese" or "Obese and overweight"?
The last figure I saw for French obesity (this year) was less than half the UK figure...
I do think state intervention is required at this point but I have zero faith in this government to do anything that actually works as intended. The sugar tax seemed like an ok idea but imo has totally failed and actually may be causing equal or more harm than if it never existed, partly because on it's own a sugary drink tax doesn't work when it doesn't apply to junk food at the same time and because the rules have been bypassed by food companies by whacking artificial sweeteners in everything to keep the junk drinks cheap so people buy just as much processed rubbish as before and haven't had to adjust their palettes to less sweet products. That's without the potential harm caused by the artificial sweeteners to the bodies blood sugar regulation process, gut microbiome etc.
We need healthy food promotion, ban on junk food advertising, subsidise fresh fruit and vegetables and tax upfs. Won't happen under a Tory government and not sure about Labour but can only hope.
Another thing to consider is heating. Most people live in homes that are heated to more than the temperature would be on a warm summers day. Then they probably step into the comfort of their heated car and then into another heated building.
Calories are units of heat and if our bodies get slightly cold these calories are burned off.
In the olden days there wouldn't have been central heating and humans were used to getting a little bit chilly often.
I don’t think you should ban these foods it’s a choice.
We need to help people make healthy choices and teach them how to cook.
I agree in principle but I think expecting individuals to go against the flow of the society/system they are part of is generally doomed to failure. There'll be exceptions for sure, but most people are products of the environment they live in and the deck is pretty heavily stacked the wrong way. Biggest factor by a long way I reckon is the ready availability of cheap, tasty highly processed foods.
One way to do that would be use the tax raised on sugary/high processed foods to subsidise healthy foods.
Yeah, there definitely need to be some sort of interventions like this at the state level I reckon.
Just watched this and found it fascinating, must admit it got me questioning some things i had always thought.
I agree in principle but I think expecting individuals to go against the flow of the society/system they are part of is generally doomed to failure. There’ll be exceptions for sure, but most people are products of the environment they live in and the deck is pretty heavily stacked the wrong way.
Agree. I have always gone against the flow and it takes some strength. I became vegetarian in 1983 where the options were not that great and the offer in restaurants was to "eat around the meat" or "just take the meat off"
It is just the same avoiding UPF, you basically cannot eat anything other than natural ingredients so can't eat anything when out and about, any prepared food from shops and have got to prepare pretty much all food from scratch. I am very determined and just do that but expecting a country to do it rather than take the easy and largely ignorant options is never going to happen.
Kerley and MrSalmon have got it. The setup we have at the moment is Obesogenic. The default choices are fundamentally poor choices.
If you have the gumption to go against the default then it is vaguely satisfying to do so and see the results, but you just can't expect the majority of people to do that.
This thread just prompted me to check what my BMI is (a great population level indicator, not perfect at individual label IMO).
28.7!! (179cm and 92kg) Used to be 79-81kg when running marathons/ Ironman triathlons but it’s steadily crept up over 5 or so years. I haven’t got a ‘gut’ etc, and have got some muscle mass, but I don’t think kidding myself that I’m a pro rugby player is going to improve my long term health.
Surely for most people this is a combination of diet (UPF, cost, time, cooking skills etc) and exercise (I’m active probably 5 days a week, but evidently the balance isn’t right at the moment!)
The UK's obesity epidemic is massively multifactorial. Everything from our working practices, income, upbringing and family structure plays into it. The sugar tax is like a stone skipping off the surface of a loch, the population will happily pay more for sugar at this point, and sugar substitutes are arguably worse for you. Our focus needs to be on saving the generation currently sub-20 years old by offering them an alternative, and protecting them from exposure to our toxic eating/exercising and working culture. Effectively by wresting control of much of their nutrition from their parents.
The problem is, the solution is stark, and initially will be so 'nanny state' that I can't see how we break the cycle.
Interestingly waist measurement as a crude measure is apparently actually better at predicting early death from diseases of obesity than BMI or so I have read.
That's the approach I'm taking currently to diet and fitness - ignoring actual weight/BMI and focusing on reductions in waist measurement coupled with some other subjective measures - mood, energy levels, levels of inflammatory stuff (eczema/asthma).
Yeah, when I look at those metabolically-perfect pro cyclists with 5% body fat eating 120g of simple sugars an hour, I think “what are these selfish Tory scumbags doing not banning more and more pleasurable things in life!” 🤥
For a ‘progressive’ place- this forum wants to ban an awful lot of things 🤣
Rocket fuel is not the issue. Eating rocket fuel when your job consists of whacking the Y key on a keyboard for 8 hour shifts like obese Homer is the issue…
The boy probably packs away more sweets than the fattest bloater in his class but is thin as a rake as he’s usually done 10,000+ steps looking after his animals before he leaves for school.
Obesity is linked to the majority of the big killers in the UK, as well as tons of nasty, painful and disabling conditions. Second only to mental health in terms of lack of resources as a ratio to harm done in my opinion
A further factor is the unhealthy relationship between the manufacturers of highly highly processed foods and the supermarkets - they often dictate the pricing, shelf space and promotions - my local store has lots of space and offers for pizzas, ready meals, ice creams and alcohol but is constantly short of fresh fruit and veg.
My wife’s Grandparents* saw this coming (they were both GP’s). Her grandfather would happily tell random dangerously large/unfit strangers in restaurants or around town how they were killing themselves.
If he were still alive- he’d have been struck off for “fat shaming” no doubt.
He was as lean as a whippet and yet always had 4 sugars in his tea and a bag of sweets in his car 🤔
In this weird post-truth apocalypse we have to resort to banning ‘dangerous foods’ lest people are forced to take responsibility for an action (or rather their gross in-action) themselves 🤦🏻♂️
*I watched them on a windswept February Northumberland beach (well into their 90’s) going for a jog when a brisk walk wasn’t enough to stay warm 🤣
my local store has lots of space and offers for pizzas, ready meals, ice creams and alcohol but is constantly short of fresh fruit and veg.
Shelf life & therefore economic results for shops are a factor there too.
28.7!! (179cm and 92kg) Used to be 79-81kg when running marathons/ Ironman triathlons but it’s steadily crept up over 5 or so years. I haven’t got a ‘gut’ etc, and have got some muscle mass, but I don’t think kidding myself that I’m a pro rugby player is going to improve my long term health.
Surely for most people this is a combination of diet (UPF, cost, time, cooking skills etc) and exercise (I’m active probably 5 days a week, but evidently the balance isn’t right at the moment!)
My BMI is very marginally lower than yours, exercise as much and I would struggle to identify any UPF in my diet.
The biggest patient I’ve ever worked with was over 300kg (at one point bedridden at 355kg). I went to watch him swim laps for an hour once. Not fast, but surprisingly capable. PTSD
Surely we all know when even cycling magazines are pushing people to ride motorbikes where they can turn the pedals occasionally to cosplay a workout, hoping for fitness to save people is a lost cause.....
It's a wide ranging problem, but I'd start with the usual thing of following the money. Our entire economy is built on consuming things we don't need and excess food is as simple an example as any. If banning junk food ads would have no effect on the consumption of junk food the industry wouldn't have put the effort in to persuading the government not to.
Obviously everything is individual choice, but the odds aren't stacked in peoples favour when you have an industry worth billions who have it in their interest that individuals choose one way.
Slight tangent.....
Our new esteemed health secretary is Victoria Atkins, fresh from the treasury where she was one of the blockers for an extra £1 billion to NHS England to cover the financial black hole caused by the doctor's strikes. Nice bit of karma.
But more pertinent to the discussion here.....her husband is Paul Kenward, managing director of British Sugar. The healthy secretary in charge of long term policies to improve the nation's health is married to the bloke motivated to keep the UK addicted to sugar....can't see any issue there!
I also think the issue is snacking and processed foods.
When we were kids we'd be out playing football, cycling etc. Today I think it's more about xbox's and social media.
However, many more adults cycle today. The Marin car park is always crammed on weekends, when I started cycling 20 or so years ago, it was never like that!
I also think the issue is snacking and processed foods.
Yep and 99% of the snacking is probably processed food. Snacking just wasn't a thing when I was young in the 70's but the heavily processed food wasn't really a thing either.
Snacking on an apple or banana wouldn't be too bad but unfortunately people are more drawn to less healthy options.
Snacking just wasn’t a thing when I was young in the 70’s but the heavily processed food wasn’t really a thing either.
Are you sure? I seem to remember eating biscuits when I got in from school in the 70s, and chocolate and sweets existed in every corner shop which we weren't strangers to. We only drank pop at grandparents or at Xmas time, but almost everyone, adult or child, took sugar in their tea or coffee. Maybe everyone was skinnier because they smoked so much. Or maybe we though everyone was skinnier because we couldn't see each other through the fag-smoke everywhere. 😀
I’m 6ft 3 and 104kg with 36in waist a bit of a gut and 2nd chin.
Same height and weigh 25kg less than you.
When my OH was losing weight a few years ago I filled a trade bucket with the equivalent weight of water that she'd just lost, she was gobsmacked how much it weighed.
Another way is to weigh out what you need to lose, and then pick it up - in your case, you're carrying a large full-fat ebike over-and-above...
It's not the sugar making you fat, it's the FAT!
Takeaway curries, pizza, McD, Fishnchips. We're talking gallons of saturated fat here - massive calorie overload and very hard to metabolise into energy.
Sugar is that instantly available source. Eat it and within a few mins it's available to use. Much harder for your body to break up fat molecules and turn them into energy.
My latest newsletter from High North Performance is on weight loss and they say
"We’d therefore generally recommend that you focus mainly on cutting down fat and alcohol, with just a modest reduction in carbohydrate intake, and a slight increase in protein intake".
It’s not the sugar making you fat, it’s the FAT!
Takeaway curries, pizza, McD, Fishnchips. We’re talking gallons of saturated fat here – massive calorie overload and very hard to metabolise into energy.
Sugar is that instantly available source. Eat it and within a few mins it’s available to use. Much harder for your body to break up fat molecules and turn them into energy.
hmmm, you might get some backlash on that.
What high quantities of sugar do for insulin levels and that's knock on effects to you weight gain makes your narrative a little simplistic.
🤔Sugar is that instantly available source. Eat it and within a few mins it’s available to use. Much harder for your body to break up fat molecules and turn them into energy.
@convert I never said high quantities of sugar, so don't attribute that to me. Long-chain sugar (carbs) are the best fuel for endurance.
Fat is harder to metabolise than sugar. That is scientific fact.
@convert I never said high quantities of sugar, so don’t attribute that to me. Long-chain sugar (carbs) are the best fuel for endurance
This is a thread is about obesity and over consulption.And you also said.....
Takeaway curries, pizza, McD, Fishnchips. We’re talking gallons of saturated fat here – massive calorie overload and very hard to metabolise into energy
That does not scream an endurance slant to your response....
It’s not the sugar making you fat, it’s the FAT!
Takeaway curries, pizza, McD, Fishnchips. We’re talking gallons of saturated fat here – massive calorie overload and very hard to metabolise into energy.
Sugar is that instantly available source. Eat it and within a few mins it’s available to use. Much harder for your body to break up fat molecules and turn them into energy.
Careful with this rhetoric. For most of the population, it's excessive carbohydrates and simple sugars which are the majority of the problem. On a population level, we need to be eating more fats (quality white meats, nuts, seeds, fish, cheese, etc) and far less pasta, baked potatoes, sandwiches, and similar white crap
Perhaps you mean refined / processed food
