Every one has made some very excellent points with very good examples to highlight the issues.<br />Japan, for example, takes a collectivist viewpoint on obesity and health. Their BMI limits are lower than the UK's. The govt noted the slow drift upwards and enacted change from a governmental level. As many have noted, leaving it to the individual can be a step too far.<br /><br />Our food has changed significantly since the 1970's. High Fructose Corn Syrup - so calorie dense I am surprised we don't run aircraft on it. Palm oil and the like. Liquid fat! Our food has become calorie denser and we're suffering for it. The diet industry has conned many people into thinking fat is bad, sugar is sort of ok. (This stemmed from a false assumption that Eisenhower's heart attack was caused by fat consumption). Check out the sugar levels on so called "diet" or "low fat" products!<br /><br />I certainly agree with people who say our society is normalising obesity. It's not ok and the strain on health services is enormous.
I struggle to see how you can easily eat 5000 calories, regardless of what your diet consists of. that’s an awful lot of food. I once checked the calories in a large dominos pizza with all the trimmings, it had around 2500 calories. If you are managing to get through the equivalent of 2 of those bad boys a day then good luck to you..
275 cals in a Costa frappe, according to the internet. Have a McD burger meal at lunch, and a few drinks in the evening (200 cals in a pint of beer, or similar in a glass of wine.) and you're approaching your suggested daily intake before you even have breakfast, snacks or evening meal. It isn't difficult to see how 5000 cals could be achieved.
My parents and grandparents would boil any nutrition out of any veg, would always add extra fat, normally butter to any meat of fish, and tasty items like garlic would be regarded as foreign muck.
I agree with this (and contrary to a previous poster whose grandmother was an excellent cook) both my grandparents (children during the war*) and to a lesser extent my mother followed this approach to cooking.
Skilled cooks? absolutely not. Willing and able to purchase good quality fresh vegetables and a joint of meat and prepare them in a way that was pretty foolproof, very much so.
*paternal grandmother claimed she never learnt to bake as ingredients were in short supply through either rationing or cost or both, that there was no way precious things like sugar would be potentially wasted on learning.
high fructose corn syrup is a real nasty thing. Added into food to make it addictive
As for the exercise at work. My colleagues and I used to walk 10 - 15 miles a shift. some of them were obese. Its an awful lot of exercise needed to burn off a few extra calories
I once checked the calories in a large dominos pizza with all the trimmings, it had around 2500 calories. If you are managing to get through the equivalent of 2 of those bad boys a day then good luck to you..
I'd consider 1 dominos large a good dinner. Not impossible to think the same again spread between the other two meals is easily acheivable.
Thats two platefuls, delivered hot, to your door, within half an hour for £15-20. I think thats what he means by easy.
By contrast, 48 slices of buttered toast (what might have been considered cheap and filling food in my grandparents day) also gets you to 5000 kcals. Thats quite a bit harder to do.
I’d consider 1 dominos large a good dinner<br />
crikey really? I’m on my back having meat sweats after finishing one of those off. If I have one I literally have to ensure I am doing nothing for rest of evening as I’m uncomfortably full!
I guess that’s the problem!
I saw this posted somewhere a few days ago. It's an American product, but as an illustration here's 2,600 calories in a single 32 US floz (~950ml) drink:
Ruddy heck - thats obscene 2600 calories and 263 g of sugar.
Regulation would be a good thing but isn't the overall answer.
My father in law is basically a fat slob, total hoover at the dinner table he would literally eat 2 meals or eat everyones leftovers at a sunday roast, health is appalling. So he decided to join weight watchers, started eating their meals but never lost weight because the idiot would eat 2 of the meals! instead of one.
I had a job a few years back where I would visit various NHS depts one of these being the nutritionist where there would be an obese member of staff advising what people should be eating to lose weight and stay healthy I always found that a funny one.
For those with an hour to spare, this RI youtube video by Dr Chris Van Tulleken on Ultra Processed Food.<br />
"Its an awful lot of exercise needed to burn off a few extra calories"
This. I know folk who think a 30 minute walk is a free pass to eat whatever they want, then wonder why they aren't losing weight.
The NHS is part of the problem. I’ve had a few issues over the last 6 months which has resulted in several trips to the gp and hospital. Everyone has asked me if I smoke and drink. (Do they not look in my notes?) but no-one, NO-ONE, has asked about my diet.<br /><br />
How much training do doctors get in nutrition UK?,
In the UK, a recent study of 853 medical students and doctors found that over 70% had received less than two hours nutrition training while at medical school
It’s no wonder that doctors/GP’s are woefully lacking in knowledge regarding nutritional value of food when you see how little training they receive throughout medical school.
As an aside, I have never been asked by doctors/consultants about my diet in my 50 years (very healthy btw, been vegi for 33 years - very little, if any processed food).
I was reading an article about obesity in the UK and it occurred to me that while you see lots of overweight folk now, it was very rare when I was growing up (I’m almost 60).
1980 7.5%
1993 14.5%
2019 28%
And the numbers do confirm my memory.
What is it that’ll make folk change their habits, or is there nothing and in a decade or so we’ll be at USA levels
Two points I'd like to make on this. Firstly, the overweight folk you notice and remember are not obese - they are morbidly obese. Secondly, and related - obese is now the new normal look. It's totally unremarkable. When I look back at old photos from my childhood in the early 70's the lack of 'fat' people does not surprise me - it's how slim everyone in the photos is. In my mind, my grandma was a Mrs Pepperpot style larger lady. Looking at photos of her with my 2023 eyes by today's standards she was completely normal shaped, verging on slim. The properly standout big unit morbidly obese folk are not really where the battle line is - they are almost a lost cause. The real battle is for the health of the 'just' obese who don't actually appreciate they have a problem because of the normality of the condition. In fact the existence of the morbidly obese is a problem as it means they have someone to point at and say they are the one's with the problem, I'm fine.
My parents and grandparents would boil any nutrition out of any veg, would always add extra fat, normally butter to any meat of fish, and tasty items like garlic would be regarded as foreign muck.
My parents were young adults during the war, we didn't get overcooked veg. though maybe my Mum being German and bringing over forrin' ideas had an impact. We ate very well for a coal mining family but I think a large part of that was also my parents not being wedded to the Miners Welfare Club and the bingo hall.
Oh and we had pretty decent school dinners too in those days. OK maybe a bit of gristle in the meat and potato pie but they were generally tasted, were fresh, nutritious and healthy. None of your burgers and pizzas.
My English Grandma wasn't great at veg. but her pies, pastries and puddings were wonderful. Holiday trips to Germany were a culinary revelation.
obese is now the new normal look.
This- recently at my GP she mentioned I was slim. My BMI is 26. Just into overweight. Objectively I am not slim. I'm a wee bit overweight at 12.5 stone. I guess she sees a lot of fat folk<br /><br />last year on my big bike ride I went down to 11.5 stone BMI 23. Everyone said I was too thin. Actually on the heavy side of healthy. Between 11 and 11.5 stone would be a good weight for me
NOrmal has become skewed in many folks eyes
^ that Oreo shake
😳😳
I thought this was about the current state of the Sex Pistols
Steve Jones:
John Lydon:
Obesity in the UK,
It's coming some time, maybe
I know what I want and I know where to get it
I wanna destroy Gregg's pork pies!
'Cause I wanna be, obesity
(No hog's body)
I've fully misunderstood this thread haven't I?
McDonalds salads I picked the most calorie dense one
320 calories, 3.9 g of sugar. 1.5 g of salt. Add the dressing for another 2.5 g / half teaspoonful of sugar and a bit more salt.
Thats an example of sugar and salt loading. WTF is over a teaspoonful of sugar doing in a salad? And 1.9 g of salt including the dressing.
WTF is over a teaspoonful of sugar doing in a salad?
The dressing, clearly. We all now expect dressings (and condiments like ketchup) to be sweet.
What really drove home how normalised obesity is in Spain, was when I was signed up to a gym that had a swimming pool attached, with a clear glass wall separating the pool from the gym itself. Friday afternoon I'd be doing weights or whatever, and there would be kids classes going on. And the number of fat kids was astonishing. When I was at school there would be maybe 1, possibly 2 in the class. And I'll admit the poor kid would no doubt suffer from bullying. They wouldn't these days.
It is only when you make sure you eat no UPF you realise you pretty much can't buy anything in supermarkets past the fruit and veg aisles which is exactly what I do. No point looking at anything else in the whole shop as 99.9% contain a UPF ingredients of some kind.
Is this the wrong time to mention that the chilli cheese bites are back in McDonald's?
This- recently at my GP she mentioned I was slim. My BMI is 26. Just into overweight.
This is probably partly an evolutionary thing where being visibly well fed is a sign of good health. Except on an evolutionary scale we never had McDonald's and 2,600 calorie Oreo drinks.
I get it a lot when I drop weight. I've never been underweight.
I struggle to see how you can easily eat 5000 calories...
We all have different relationships with food but I reckon I could do it easily, given a free pass. An addictive personality means I have to be disciplined not to do it.
A modern western diet is full of highly addictive foods, manufactured very specifically to be so, which is a large part of the problem.
There's no way out of it without regulation or a change in incentives in the food industry. It's the equivalent of raising people in a crack den and expecting them to choose not to take drugs.
It's incredibly difficult, even for the well educated, to know what the healthy options are, never mind choose them over the stuff they're already addicted to.
The dressing, clearly.
@tjagain seems to be suggesting there is 3.9g of sugar without the dressing. If that is "added sugar" isn't clear.
We all now expect dressings (and condiments like ketchup) to be sweet.
I make my own dressing. I don't put sugar in it. I don't expect it to be sweet.
It is only when you make sure you eat no UPF you realise you pretty much can’t buy anything in supermarkets past the fruit and veg aisles which is exactly what I do.
I guess I'm lucky to have a good local bakery, greengrocer and butcher. The supermarket is for "non-perishables".
I make my own dressing. I don’t put sugar in it. I don’t expect it to be sweet.
Yeah, and I generally just use oil and vinegar. But "we" (and I meant society in general) now expect sauces to be sweet. Buy any ready made salad dressing and it will have sugar in it.
This- recently at my GP she mentioned I was slim. My BMI is 26. Just into overweight.
I know I'm hitting race-weight when my MiL asks my wife if I'm ill 😀 Normal BMI is around 22, race weight I'm down to 20 or so. Still well within the healthy range. And I can understand why: when I'm in her (rural, Spanish village) all the men have a gut. And they're working in the fields all day. Manual labour, getting the feed out to the cows / cutting firewood / etc. And they're all chubby. By comparison I'm skinny.
On a pod listened to they mentioned that Japan were bringing in compulsory checks on employees to be conducted by employers in order to curtail their national rising obesity. Waist sizes will be checked on a yearly basis once the employee is over the age of 40 or so, and support arranged on diet and weight loss if over a certain waist size. That waist size cutoff for men is 33"....
Who the **** goes to McDonalds
and buys a salad?
Who the **** goes to McDonalds and buys a salad?
People who think they are eating healthily? Take the kids for a burger but they willhave a salad?
@tjagain seems to be suggesting there is 3.9g of sugar without the dressing. If that is “added sugar” isn’t clear.
Perhaps the tomatoes in the salad bits? they have a fair bit of sugar IIRC Or carrots if any are in it?
I just ate a posh Aldi yoghurt. 20 g of sugar. I am addicted to sugar. I'm working on it but its not easy. I used to be a 2 spoonfuls of sugar in my coffee person but now 1/4 spoonful - been working it down over time. As your palate adapts you don't miss it.
Working longer hours and having nobody at home to prepare meals from scratch must play a part in this. I’m up before six every day and rarely get home before six. Don’t always get time for breakfast or lunch and preparing a meal after a long day isn’t always an option. You end up eating convenience food because of time constraints and, well, convenience.
I’m one of those skinny fat ones though. Look relatively healthy from the outside but my arteries are made from pure lard.
BMI always makes me laugh due to an ultra muscular health nut I used to work with. Came in to work angry one morning because the GP told him he was overweight. Pretty much no fat on the guy, just solid muscle.
Take the kids for a burger but they willhave a salad?
I have never witnessed this and I've spent a fair amount of time there 🙂
BMI is a very crude measure - its doesn;t work if you are particularly tall or short either and certainly not if you have big muscle mass
Zander Fagerson ( rugby prop) has a BMI of 35. Bet he has a lower body fat % than me
Germany and France are a lot closer to the UK than you might imagine. When I last looked the UK was 27% Germany 25% and France 22%.
All up substantially in the last 10 years. <br /><br />
Young people are changing, though. Many exercise regularly, drink almost exclusively water and eat quite healthy too.
I wonder how much an aging population is adding to these obesity stats.
Many rugby props look fat and possibly are doing their ticker no good, what happens when they stop training? I bet very few loose the extra 5 stone they carry
If the aging population is adding to the stats and younger people are thinner then we are on course for a sudden reduction in bmi over a few years soon.
All the oversize ones will shuffle off
Young people are changing, though. Many exercise regularly, drink almost exclusively water and eat quite healthy too.
Really? I teach approx 140 in a week and only one or two drink water, the rest think energy drinks are the best form of hydration and a McDonald's is a treat they'd have every day of they could.
I've watched and shared this quote heavily recently. It's provoking, and I do t 100% agree (environmental arguments) but covers a bit about obesity and where calories come from these days.
BMI is a very crude measure – its doesn;t work if you are particularly tall or short either and certainly not if you have big muscle mass
It's a pretty good measure, as most of us aren't abnormally tall or short, or elite rugby players. I do marathons for fun, I'm at about 20-21 BMI, and I've got wobbly bits around my waist. If you've got a BMI of 27, say, and you're not an elite professional athlete, I'm happy to wager you're overweight.
MY pal who is 6'7" would disagree. He is skinny and his bmi comes up as overweight, Something to do with using square of height rather than a cube?
But yes - its fine for 90% of the population in the middle of the bellcurve.
Interestingly waist measurement as a crude measure is apparently actually better at predicting early death from diseases of obesity than BMI or so I have read.
The real challenge is highlighting the obesity issue, vs the current trend of “not body shaming”…
People simply don’t see obesity as ‘being ill’…
If I told my auntie I thought she had a melanoma / suspicious skin lesion etc, it would be taken seriously and thought to be a kind gesture. If I told my auntie she’s obese and it will make her unwell, I’d be told to FO and I’m rude.. (my aunti isn’t fat, but..examples…)
Once we can approach the idea like this, we can take steps forward..
People over 80 seem to manage it. Anyone in the extended family or their new friend/partner looking fat, thin, weak, poor skin glow - they'll be concerned and say something politely and discreetly to someone closer to that individual. I think it's that it was more common for that generation to go through lack of food, poor available nutrition, and consequences for the aforementioned things (e.g. precursor to other health problems, man won't get a job if he's a weakling) - it was a serious thing to be concerned about.
MY pal who is 6’7″ would disagree. He is skinny and his bmi comes up as overweight,
BMI isn’t perfect but 100+kg is not skinny at that height.
Many rugby props look fat and possibly are doing their ticker no good, what happens when they stop training? I bet very few loose the extra 5 stone they carry
A few ex rugby players where I work and their massive bellies suggest to me it has not gone well.
BMI is a great simple measure that will give a very good indiction on who is overweight especially if used by professionals as they can easily spot if the person is in the 1% where it doesn't work well and make a different assessment.
I have a BMI of 22 but in my medical I am always told my body fat is on the high side. Can't argue with that and while I look in very good shape compared to 99% of people my age I can clearly feel fat around my waist and ribs. I could get all defensive about it claiming I am fit, eat really well and a good weight but that would be silly wouldn't it as body fat is body fat.
You can be aerobically fit and fairly fat! In fact, if you walk across the park chatting with your fat mate, they’ve actually done more ‘work’ than you. <br /><br />Like on ‘supersize v super skinny’ when often, the pasty IT nerd had worse biomarkers than the blob they were paired with. <br />It’s actually pretty poorly studied how much subcutaneous fat is ‘healthy’ as obviously it’s the visceral fat that is the issue and one is just being used as a crude assumption about the other. <br /><br />There is no consensus on what a healthy diet is. Traditionally skinny/healthy cultures from around the world have diets that consist of what’s local, not one particular food group.
I looked at my MyFitnessPal entries from when I was at my skinniest (whilst still being fit enough for a 340w ftp) and every ‘bad’ food bar alcohol from this thread was consumed.
It’s not a western diet that makes developing populations fat- it’s a western lifestyle.
In Peter Attia’s book he says how the biggest change in his thinking from when he started to when he finished writing it, was how the role of food and exercise switched around in his mind. He realised there was no obvious consensus on diet but that being metabolically fit is the key to avoiding all the main health problems. <br /><br />One other thing I haven’t heard mentioned- back in the day when ‘everyone was skinny’, don’t forget they were smoking 60 appetite suppressants a day!! <br />My mate Bill (72) struggles with his weight and associated health problems like diabetes and he swears blind that giving up smoking on retirement was the worst thing he did. He ballooned steadily ever since. Of course- he just swapped one likely mortal disease for another
My granddad didn’t smoke and was a fit, strong farmer who could dig an acre of spuds until the day he died. He was always 15 stone. <br />My dad by contrast- has always smoked and he’s an unhealthy looking 12 stone. <br />I have never smoked and I too settle at 15 stone. It takes an almost constant obsession with diet to get under that. <br />Even when I was fit enough to do 250w for 4h30 at the tour of Cambridgeshire this year, I still weighed over 15 stone.
So whether people in the 70’s or whatever looked skinnier- that doesn’t mean they were any healthier. And were probably just as likely to drain our healthcare resources with emphysema or lung cancer. <br /><br />I think this also explains the ‘skinny poor bloke’ caricature above. They’re perhaps the demographic still most likely to be smokers?
It's possible to be fit, healthy, olympic medal winning with a high BMI in the right sport, but 99% of people with high BMIs are just fat, regardless of their protestations that it's all solid muscle cunningly disguised in the shape of a belly.
