[Closed] Nuclear War

You're not alone in your memories or thinking. I'm not quite sure we can resolve it on a thread though

The film Threads scared the crap out of me when a kid in the 80's. I still think even an all-out war would stay conventional as anything else would be terrifying.

Agreed, there will be no winners.

Fancy a game of tic-tac-toe?

The 80s were shit. As kids we were going to die of a nuclear war, or heroin which screwed you up, or Aids. We had no chance. No wonder we all went hedonistic with raves.

You are not alone. My whole adult life has been coloured by the Cold War.

No wonder we all went hedonistic with raves.

True, I did.

Meh, a good ol' nuclear holocaust might just remind people that there's more to life than obsessing about property, going out for coffee at the weekend and looking for new things to be offended by. There might be some cracking post-apocalyptic raves,

Bring it on.

Anyone remember the animated film 'where the wind blows' ?
A cheery film about an elderly couple in the country trying to survive after a nuclear strike - and all brought to you by the mam behind the Snowman......

Good timing on this thread as my 11yo daughter was asking what the cold war was all about yesterday.

When I was a boy, we had TV ads showing how the Royal Observer Corps would be monitoring nuclear fallout and regular testing of air raid sirens. I can't honestly say that nuclear war seems any more imminent now than it did in the 1960s.

Anyone remember the animated film ‘when the wind blows’ ?

Yeah, I had the book. As I remember, the trick is to take off your front door and lean it up against a wall and shelter behind. Can't remember how it panned out though...

… everybody died.

As much as I dislike what Putin is up to I don't think he's mad enough to launch a first strike, ditto Bidan, Johnson, Macron.
President Kim on the other hand... But he could 'only' destroy SK/Japan, rather than the entire planet.

President Kim on the other hand… But he could ‘only’ destroy SK/Japan, rather than the entire planet.

I broadly agree, except…

The USA jumps in to help Japan or SK as they are bound to, then China jumps in because of some obligation to NK, then…

Boom. We’re back to the entire planet.

There’s simply no such thing as limited or regional nuclear conflict, as I see it.

Even if there was, though, I read somewhere that the nuclear winter from a mere six explosions from weapons the size they have now would be so bad that the destruction of crops would be such that billions would starve to death within a couple of years anyway.

We’ve really got to figure out a way to remove them from the menu.

… everybody died.

Or...

It all blew over, Jim and Hilda Bloggs were subsequently evicted from their home of fifty years by the council for removing the front door. The house was then sold at auction to a joyless, grasping young couple to add to their BTL HMO portfolio and filled with tenants six to a room for maximum housing benefit yield.

Yaaay!

Damn you scaring me with this thread title 😉

do world leaders actually believe that anyone could possibly win once nuclear weapons are deployed?

I doubt all of them will have given the question much thought, in particular our own PM.

I mean, how could there possibly be any way back from annihilating New York or Moscow or Washington or wherever? It’s not like the president of the USA is going to say, ‘Okay, that’s enough now. They took out Boston. Let’s call it a day.’

The side launching the first strike would win, if the receiving side decided not to respond. However there are/were doomsday devices designed to eliminate that possibility by automatically launching a non-abortable retaliation. The logic being, if your enemy knows you have this, the possibility of you blinking or thinking "it's not worth it for just 5M (Boston) of my 330M people" is eliminated, so it's a stronger deterrent to them launching that first strike.

For your bedtime reading: Status-6 long-range torpedo drone with cobalt-salted warhead.

Where is the global outcry against nuclear weaponry?

Hasn't that always been just a western thing? It'd be great to have them all gone, but the most I could hope to have even a microscopic influence on would be to have the UK ones gone. And I don't think I want that, given the nature of the other nations that do have them.

The USA jumps in to help Japan or SK as they are bound to

I think countries will take a flexible view of their commitments, political or legal, when the stakes are this high.

apparently I am a warmonger for nuking Moscow and sending my tanks into what was left. A few gifts to the rest of the world leaders and i'm cushty again. I hope real world leaders are a bit more restrained than my Civilization6 gameplay.

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

 It’s not like the president of the USA is going to say, ‘Okay, that’s enough now. They took out Boston. Let’s call it a day.’

The US had a system that basically said, lets make absolutely sure the weapons are going to do what we want and the targets we choose will be wiped from the map. Moscow for instance ended up eventually with something like fourteen or fifteen weapons aimed at it, with a payload of thousands of megatonnes, of ground burst air burst, aircraft delivered, ICBMs and so on and it was automated in such a way that even if the President said "lets stop, they took out Boston" it couldn't be stopped.

Eric Schlosser's book Command and Control is worth a read if you're interested in the system design of the weapons that successive US govts all realised was completely bonkers, yet could do little to change.

OP is right it will be terrible if Putin goes nuclear and pulls the plug to the internet, what will the world do without social media and porn

I'm old enough to remember a time when not wanting to push the big red button on world destruction was a reason not to vote for someone.

As a fifteen year old I remember the tension back in 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Things got very close to disaster then.

Took daughter to the Imperial War Museum North yesterday. There's a Cold War section playing a nuclear warning ad on loop, and I explained that was the background to my teenage years.

I’m old enough to remember a time when not wanting to push the big red button on world destruction was a reason not to vote for someone.

IIRC that was still trotted out against Corbyn.

do world leaders actually believe that anyone could possibly win once nuclear weapons are deployed?

There are a group of military advisors / war hawks that believe in the concept of a limited nuclear war thet their country would "win"  Loons the lot of them

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

citation because to the best of my knowledge this is not true at all.  Its a right wing slur / piece of propaganda

I’m old enough to remember a time when not wanting to push the big red button on world destruction was a reason not to vote for someone.

"Ms Sturgeon said: “No I wouldn’t. I oppose nuclear weapons.

“Whenever that question is asked, it should be pointed out that anybody who used nuclear weapons would be doing something that would potentially lead to the deaths of millions, perhaps tens of millions of people.
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“I think nuclear weapons are immoral, I think they’re ineffective and I think they’re a waste of money.

“I would not countenance their use and I look forward to the day where not just Scotland is free of nuclear weapons, but the world is free of nuclear weapons.”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18052067.nicola-sturgeon-confirms-not-use-nuclear-weapons/

In some instances refusal to use nuclear weapons is a vote winner.  This clear statement from Sturgeon was

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

Don't forget the other old populist meme, that the cnd badge was a symbol of witchcraft, which worked on my christian parents and their friends.

“I think nuclear weapons are immoral

It's instructive, I think when modern politicians say those sorts of things, to go back and read the diary entry of so far, the only politician who's actually used them.

Potsdam
July 25, 1945

We met at 11 a.m. today. That is Stalin, Churchill and the U.S. President. But I had a most important session with Lord Mountbatten & General Marshall before that. We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark.

Anyway we "think" we have found the way to cause the disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexico desert was startling — to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower 60 feet high, created a crater 6 feet deep and 1200 feet in diameter, knocked over a steel tower 1/2 mile away and knocked men down 10,000 yards away. The explosion was visible for more than 200 miles and audible for 40 miles and more.

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec[retary]. of War, Mr. [Henry] Stimson to use so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old Capitol [Kyoto] or the new [Tokyo].

He & I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover the atomic bomb. It seems to me to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful.

There are a group of military advisors / war hawks that believe in the concept of a limited nuclear war thet their country would “win”  Loons the lot of them

I think there may have been one or two, a handful even  certainly you could level that accusation at Curtis LeMay for instance - and even he understood what it meant, but he was prepared to use them. In most of the material that I've read regarding great wars or battles, certainly for say, The US Civil War and Vietnam, Gulf War of 2003 the military are the ones largely saying "This is not going to be as easy as you think"

I grew up in South Africa, we had our own problems and we didn't really pay much attention to those types of world problems. Although, unknown to many we were a proxy in a bigger conflict in the Angola war.

The problem as I see it with disarmament is it has to be all sides. It does not help one side unilaterally removing all nuclear weapons if the other continues. This then brings about basic human failings in that people want power and influence over others, so there will never be any meaningful reduction in numbers until there is a way to guarantee all sides cannot make any more, which is impossible. Take a look at bio/chemical weapons, which have restrictions on them, yet development has undoubtedly continued on all sides as "if we don't keep up, the other side will have a huge advantage".

Scotland deciding it no longer wants nuclear weapons on its soil would be its choice if the independence vote goes through, although IMO, it can choose that as there are other countries providing the balance of power in the world.
Right or wrong, politics, religion, us vs them aside, if there is a massive imbalance in power in the world, it will cause massive issues.

Human beings are the problem basically.

Or…

It all blew over, Jim and Hilda Bloggs were subsequently evicted from their home of fifty years by the council for removing the front door. The house was then sold at auction to a joyless, grasping young couple to add to their BTL HMO portfolio and filled with tenants six to a room for maximum housing benefit yield.

Yaaay!

Nope, slow painful death from radiation sickness. The 80’s, what a time to be alive!

Shouldn’t have bought the doors from IKEA. Should’ve posted on here asking about bespoke handmade doors that could survive a couple of megaton of warhead

Anyone remember the animated film ‘where the wind blows’ ?

I remember it. A strong contender for darkest children's movie. A rare breed of genuinely thought provoking content for kids, like Watership Down.

To be honest, as a small child in the 80s, the Cold War just seemed like a whole lot of bravado that culminated in Rocky Balboa beating Ivan Drago, and that was the end. I don't remember any genuine concern. That film was probably the closest thing that described the possibility in detail.

I remember it. A strong contender for darkest children’s movie.

Despite being a cartoon, I don't think it was for kids is it?

As a kid in the 70s and teenager in the eighties we genuinely believed that nuclear war and annihilation were genuine possibilities. Threads etc really didn't help. Nobody worries about it now so much as it's not reported and with the fall of the Soviet Bloc the bogeyman shifted.

Interesting

I never had the fear of nuclear war at all thru the cold war and I remember that time well

I spent most of my childhood growing up on military bases, and being aware from quite an early age that if it did come, at least there was one directed at us - at whatever air base we were stationed at, and we'd be spared survival

I do remember drills, and being shown films about it at school.

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

Oooh, I didn’t know that, (but it makes sense) there absolute evidence?

I never had  drill at school nor was shown any films.  I did leave school in 78.  I really never thought that the nuclear was was even a vague possibility.  I do not remember the Cuba crisis tho which is probably when it came closest

I think that what's also scary is the number of close calls that have come to light over the years. I vaguely remember something in the 80s whereby nuclear armed bombers made it out onto runways following computer glitches.

Some sobering reading here - List of nuclear close calls - Wikipedia

Grew up in the 70s slap bang between the nuclear bunkers at raf strike command and usaf daws Hill, remember the air raid sirens going off in a storm once, was pretty scary. I'm with TJ on this, anyone actually prepared to use (not just say they would) nuclear weapons must be certifiable.

Oooh, I didn’t know that, (but it makes sense) there absolute evidence?

Makes no sense at all and is not true I believe

there absolute evidence?

I think MI5 regarded them as "communist penetrated" and I think there was a documentary waaaay back at the fall of the berlin wall that suggested that someone passed information to the Stasi about CND. There was loads of rumours and the sorts of daft nonsense that went on in the cold war - I think the chairman at one point was living with some-one who was a member of the British Communist Party so was watched frantically.

But no, I don't think there's any evidence.

Edit. I remember an apocryphal? story about the chairman of CND saying something like, "Are the Russians funding us? Have you seen how shabby our office is? I'd love to spend some money on paint"

Despite being a cartoon, I don’t think it was for kids is it?

Interesting point. I would have been about 8 or 9 when I watched it and never considered it to be anything else. Google suggests it was a PG, so I guess a family movie.

Some sobering reading here

Hah, completely misses that time a Titan Missile actually exploded

I read somewhere that the nuclear winter from a mere six explosions from weapons the size they have now would be so bad that the destruction of crops would be such that billions would starve to death within a couple of years anyway

I think that's a myth. The current US weapons have a maximum yield of 1.2 megatonnes (I don't know about the Russian and others) compared to the 15 megatonnes of 1950's atmospheric tests like Castle Bravo and the Russian 50 megatonne Tsar. There would be more fallout, I guess, if bombs were exploded over land rather than mostly water (eg, Bikini) but not enough for six bombs to have that effect. Not that I'm suggesting six bombs would be acceptable, and I hope nobody suggests it a fix for global warming.

If you read any of the books from military pilots (in particular) who were active from the 60's to the 90's, most of their training was based on getting airborne before the Soviet hordes came over the horizon, shoot down as many of them as possible and then eject into the sea (the assumption being that there wouldn't be the support to have air to air refuelling).

The bombers were either already on patrol (certainly the Americans ran 24/7 bomber sorties for a while - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chrome_Dome) or ready and waiting to get airborne with the hope that at least some would get through to drop their weapon. The return journey wasn't part of the exercise - there'd be nothing to come back to.

Sobering stuff.

I think that the Soviet threat was exaggerated during the cold war, certainly post Cuban Missile Crisis. It suited both sides politically.

I think the risk from now is different - the threat us smaller nations getting nuclear weapons and someone insane like Nk using them. It would be the end of NK if they did ,- American lead coalition would be straight in after destroying all nuclear capability

IMo not so much conventional nukes from rogue states but ""dirty bombs" where the intent is to pollute rather than destroy with explosions.  Much easier to make

 military pilots (in particular) who were active from the 60’s to the 90’s

My dad flew Lightenings from Gutersloh in the late 60's and he was in no doubt about what his mission was and his life expectancy. - Part of his flight kit was an eye patch an anti radiation injection that he was supposed to stab into his thigh...  His friend he flew A4s in the US navy was his squadron's Instructor for the Mk61 bomb. Both of them were both acutely aware of how completely crazy the whole thing was.

I spent most of my childhood growing up on military bases, and being aware from quite an early age that if it did come, at least there was one directed at us – at whatever air base we were stationed at, and we’d be spared survival

Living near Aldershot, this was the sobering thought my mum gave to me when I watched When the Wind Blows...

FWIW, Russian military doctrine draws no distinction between tactical nuclear and conventional weapons. They are perfectly happy to drop a low yield nuclear cruise missile on a military target if it meets their tactical needs.

If you read any of the books from military pilots (in particular) who were active from the 60’s to the 90’s, most of their training was based on getting airborne before the Soviet hordes came over the horizon, shoot down as many of them as possible and then eject into the sea (the assumption being that there wouldn’t be the support to have air to air refuelling).

any recommendations for the best one or two?

 Much easier to make

Wasn't one made by Chechen terrorists in the 1990s?

Growing up in the 80s, it seemed to me an absolute certainty that I wouldn't make adulthood. Me and my mates used to discuss where nearest to us the first nukes would strike (Strike Command (Naphill) a few miles down the road) and Upper Heyford not far the other way. We used to genuinely & candidly discuss whether we'd die in the initial blast or in the fallout that followed, and what your last actions would be when you heard the 4-minute warning.
I'm aware typing this that it sounds very morose and nihilistic, but it really wasn't those types of conversations; they were more like nuclear weapons Top-Trumps and a response to the pervasive background noise of nuclear armageddon. I remember thinking Reagan was very dangerous and had an itchy trigger finger, and almost certainly something big would happen that nobody really would want to survive anyway. What was the point of spending many thousands on nuclear bunkers (and some people did) when there'd be nothing left when you popped your head up afterwards anyway?
I think it was Einstein who said " I don't know what weapons the 3rd World War will be fought with, but the 4th World War will be fought with stick and stones".
For interesting insights, the podcast series Cold War Conversations gives some fascinating inside views on what was really going on at the time. Ideal windy dog-walking listening and a good chance to reflect that the 16-year old you maybe never thought you, or mankind, would still be around now.

I remember having similar conversations with my mates in the 80's as creakingdoor above, and while those scenarios seamed an almost inevitable reality, they were at the same time an abstract fiction.

I guess like now, we had no real control of the morons in charge so couldn't change anything, but whether because general attitude of the times were different or it was just the exuberance of youth, we feared it less and just lived with more positivity in our daily lives.

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

Conspiracy theorist crap is not new it's just more people knew when to ignore it.

CND still exists and for as long as there are nuclear weapons it is important that peace advocates highlight the madness, expense and danger of nuclear weapons. Peace is not maintained by holding guns to each others heads.

Threads scared the living shit out of me. Insane times but MAD did seem to work and i don't think russia is a global nuclear threat or China, it's just what do we do know that the genie's out of the bottle and india, ****stan, nk, israel and others have these weapons and objectives of their own? It'll go tits up at some point but I don't think it will be washington and Moscow shooting at each other

We’ve really got to figure out a way to remove them from the menu.

What we really need to remove from the menu is war full stop. We really should have learned this after WW2, but unfortunately humans are just a bit too arrogant. If the 'buzzer' goes I'm going to the nearest high priority target...

I'm genuinely afraid of the future we are leaving for all of our children. Shameful.

Growing up in the 80s, it seemed to me an absolute certainty that I wouldn’t make adulthood. Me and my mates used to discuss where nearest to us the first nukes would strike (Strike Command (Naphill) a few miles down the road) and Upper Heyford not far the other way. We used to genuinely & candidly discuss whether we’d die in the initial blast or in the fallout that followed, and what your last actions would be when you heard the 4-minute warning.
I’m aware typing this that it sounds very morose and nihilistic, but it really wasn’t those types of conversations; they were more like nuclear weapons Top-Trumps and a response to the pervasive background noise of nuclear armageddon. I remember thinking Reagan was very dangerous and had an itchy trigger finger, and almost certainly something big would happen that nobody really would want to survive anyway. What was the point of spending many thousands on nuclear bunkers (and some people did) when there’d be nothing left when you popped your head up afterwards anyway?

This, was pretty much exactly my childhood also.

Exercise Square Leg was a GB government civil defence preparedness test/simulation in the event of a nuclear attack. (One of a number of "cricket" themed ones, IIRC).

It was a bit odd as the government didn't think central London would be targeted.

Also, people who “knew” about these things, reckoned the target list was “unlikely” and also the amount of bang! was underestimated (suggested 250 megabangs! Vs expected 1000 megabangs!)

I dont think the exercise considered the radioactive fallout from a devastated US drifting over the UK, the effect of a nuclear winter, or the use of cobalt salted weapons (everything stays radioactive for ages).

Even so I recall reading (but cant find it now) that 80% of the country would be dead by 12 months. Wiki says 35% of the population are “short term survivors”.

Anyway, to lighten the mood, why not hit Todmorden with a Topol SS25 warhead: Insanity simulator.

This is a bit dated now but still a captivating and terrifying read...

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuclearwar1.html

Growing up in the 80s, it seemed to me an absolute certainty that I wouldn’t make adulthood. Me and my mates used to discuss where nearest to us the first nukes would strike

This. As a 70s kid and 80s teenager, I used to experience what psychologists called 'nuclear nightmares'. I didn't know they were a thing until I was reading Douglas Coupland's 1993 book 'Life After God' (a series of short stories), in which one story is just a series of recollected nuclear nightmares. I remember feeling like someone had hit me in the gut when I read it, because I couldn't believe that someone else had the same experience.

I remember hearing an academic banging on about the Cold War affecting kids' psychological wellbeing in the states, creating neurosis, reducing aspirations and even learning potential. A bit bloody much if all they're doing is willy waving.

This is a bit dated now but still a captivating and terrifying read…

Yeeeesh. Stuff of nightmares, no?

As a kid in the late 70s I remember the local warning siren going off. Suburban east London. Absolutely shat myself and was genuinely upsetting being about 10 at the time. Think they were testing it for flood warnings. Gits

I grew up in the 80s and don’t think the serious thought of nuclear war crossed my mind once !

You guys must have led a dark childhood!!

It's was rough being an 80s kid tbf.
I remember a test of the air raid siren I was about 11 ran into my mum and dads bedroom and we all just looked out of the window waiting. My sister did not wake up so my dad just left her in her room.
We lived 1 mile ish from a mod site so it would have been quick I suppose.

It has stayed with me and that film z for Zachariah? We watched at school my god it was grim we did get pac man though.

I spent most of my childhood growing up on military bases, and being aware from quite an early age that if it did come, at least there was one directed at us – at whatever air base we were stationed at, and we’d be spared survival

I was a RAF brat, Dad went to Germany every year to role play what would happen if it kicked off.

Which did mean an American National Guard squadron came into Wittering for the same exercises. Over equipped, overly generous and over here. I was the best equipped Scout in our troop though 👍

I think that the Soviet threat was exaggerated during the cold war, certainly post Cuban Missile Crisis. It suited both sides politically.

If you look at the mapping exercise that the Russians did it was for only one reason. You don't need detailed maps of Grimsby for defensive reasons.

Despite being a cartoon, I don’t think it was for kids is it?

I was a kid when I watched it.

I'm now an adult.

It influenced my view on the things, for life.

It might have been aimed at kids, at the time, but kids grow up.

Anyway, to lighten the mood, why not hit Todmorden with a Topol SS25

The stone mines at Lee Quarry were once a prospective command centre, I think they were put off by the fact no-one in senior ranks would move there

Yeeeesh. Stuff of nightmares, no?

Yup. Mad Max stuff. Essentally the US and Western Europe turning into lawless zombielands. You really don't want to survive a nuclear war! Although I think I would want to just out a macabre curiosity as to what would happen after.

Also can't believe no one's posted this yet.. 😄

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Britain's CGWH had accommodation for 4000 and 60 miles of underground roads, and a BBC radio studio

As a kid in the late 70s I remember the local warning siren going off. Suburban east London. Absolutely shat myself and was genuinely upsetting being about 10 at the time. Think they were testing it for flood warnings. Gits

I grew up in Malvern late 70's early 80, the air raid sirens used to be tested every couple of weeks. RRE as it was then was one of the prime likely targets for a bombing.
I remember talking to mates when I went to uni and was surprised that they'd never heard a siren before, though it was commonplace, which kinda made it sink in a bit more. that and chinooks flying over my school with big swinging payloads.

I was born in 71 and my dad was in the RAF, including 6 years at Gutersloh in the late 70s. Going to read up on what they actually did there later tonight as I’ve never given it any thought until it was mentioned above.

As a few in this thread, I was never really bothered or thought about nuclear was as I grew up.

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

Conspiracy theorist crap is not new it’s just more people knew when to ignore it.

Given how widespread the Soviet infiltration of the UK was, I'd be astonished if CND had escaped their attention.

That's not to say it was some sort of KGB run puppet organisation though

Given how widespread the Soviet infiltration of the UK was, I’d be astonished if CND had escaped their attention.

That’s not to say it was some sort of KGB run puppet organisation though

Uk/US/etc have probably done the same for years

I remember a woodwork teacher who had a "break glass" 3 minute warning kit, it comprised a tea bag, a match and a cigarette

CND was funded indirectly by the KGB.

CND’s loss is the Tory party’s gain

All this, and it's a Monday. I'd absolutely just kill myself if it came to complete nuclear war.

If you want to be be aboard a B52 as the human race snubs itself out its also with watching By Dawns Early Light. Not a doc, a very good fictional account of WW3 kicking off from the view point of a crew aboard a B52 on a bombing run to Russia. Compulsive viewing.

Full film here. Well worth a watch. If you've not seen it I suspect you'll always remember watching it too. Just as I have.

All this, and it’s a Monday.

It's a fascinating subject though. The science and technology behind it all are mind-boggling..

https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nukergv.html

fascinating

It's definitely that, but I wouldn't put it at the top of the list. Frightening, is my first thought.

I thought the hierarchy would at least give us 6 months of respite after covid before starting another world war.