[Closed] Now the fire service personnel are due to strike

I didn't think they were allowed to strike. I do remember this happening when I was a kid though. We had the 'green goddess' army fire engines filling in in our area.

School teachers I imagine.

Kids will go uneducated, procreate madly and end up on the dole.........hmmmm.

Jeez, is someone planning to stop their second jobs ?

That's nice of them.

Now the British Army, already overstretched and very often paid less than firemen will have to step in to provide cover and put themselves at enhanced risk by using clapped out kit because they're not trained to use the lovely shiny Fire Service gear.

I can't believe striking isn't illegal for the emergency services, it should be.

Yes, because its not like Trumpton have ever been on strike before is it? Just look at the devastation caused last time, and the time before that, oh, and the time before that... oh, maybe not after all eh!

[img] [/img]

we have had the BA crews, the BAA, lot, and many others,and they only caused slight disruptions.

Have BAA gone on strike ? BA crews certainly took limited strike action, but who are the [i]"many others"[/i]

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If it was the local council workers, possibly nobody would notice the difference

Possibly because there aren't many council workers left ?

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Project - does a day ever pass when you don't take a swipe at public sector workers ?

I am?
Really?
hmmm. Why am I the last to know?

BA, BAA, ... ?

can't imagine who it'll be next, Bristol Association of Ardent Anglers must be worth a punt

(or maybe [url= http://www.blacksheepbrewery.com/ ]this lot[/url])

Why am I the last to know?

Because unlike project you don't read the Daily Mail ?

I'm in work, looking at the FBU notice board, there's nothing about us going on strike, where'd you see/hear this Project?

A.

Didn't they strike in 2001 or so?

[b]BelfastAndy - Member
I'm in work, looking at the FBU notice board, there's nothing about us going on strike, where'd you see/hear this Project?

A.

Posted 59 seconds ago # Report-Post[/b]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11043768

London Town to start with and im sure there where other counties as well

They haven't announced strikes then, just a ballot on industrial that [i]could[/i] result in strike action

Also

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-10736478

Apologies for the Daily Mail type headline.

London firefighters to vote on industrial action

So it's just London. And they haven't decided yet.

Still, why let the facts stop you from having a swipe at public sector workers, eh project ?

They haven't announced strikes then, just a ballot on industrial that could result in strike action

Never let the facts get in the way of a half-arsed reactionary right wing rant.

just a ballot on industrial that could result in strike action

That's too long for project to wait.

If only we could privatise the fire service......

It was until the second world war i believe.

from the BBC article...

The union said it will ballot about 6,000 members in the capital on action short of a strike.

****
A.

Believe me after the last successful strike, you'll not find a lot of FF's willing to do it again!

First I heard about it as well.

That's nice of them.

Now the British Army, already overstretched and [s]very often[/s] paid less than firemen will have to step in to provide cover and put themselves at enhanced risk by using clapped out kit because they're not trained to use the lovely shiny Fire Service gear.

I can't believe striking isn't illegal for the emergency services, it should be.

+1 and corrected

What are the proposals ? All I can find are 'longer days and shorter nights' whatever that means!

In fairness, I don't know the fire situation but within the ambulance service we have umpteen reasons to strike. All leave from august to october cancelled? Contractual pay rises not granted? Its all well and good saying the emergency services shouldn't be able to strike, but did you ever stop to wonder why? Yeah the fire service have a pretty good deal, but they wouldn't gamble that on a whim. there was a big kick off in south yorks recently about shift changes and everyone said "its so they can work two jobs". Could also be so they can look after their kids/care for relatives/ have some quality of life? no one joins the emergency services for the benefits, but imagine if all you IT workers lost all your perks over night. Would you stand for it?

So not striking at all then, sounds more of working to rule and only in London.

The Fire Service is going through big changes again mainly from the knock on from the last strike, no not the one in the 70s, the settled but not with out some 'compromise' on short of what the fool leader of the FBU promised them.

I'd say their members will be cautious this time after that mess.

meehaja

What's the reason for the leave situation and were people forced to cancel holidays?

@ernie_lynch

Possibly because there aren't many council workers left ?

Have you seen this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11034769

If a 12% efficiency increase in local government workers could result in 500,000 fewer jobs being needed, this means that there are approximately 4,000,000 people employed in local government, which is still quite a few I think.

To give this some context, there are approximately 1.5 million employees in the NHS.

backhander - Member

That's nice of them.

Now the [b]Armed Forces[/b], already overstretched and [s]very often[/s] paid less than firemen will have to step in to provide cover and put themselves at enhanced risk by using clapped out kit because they're not trained to use the lovely shiny Fire Service gear.

I can't believe striking isn't illegal for the emergency services, it should be.

Corrected for accuracy. It was a Joint effort - not just the Army - when the idle, change-resistant inefficient firemen last went out, put lives at risk and had to be covered by more capable people who got on with the job in hand with surprisingly effective results.
The police aren't allowed to strike - how the back-sliding firemen get away with it is beyond me.

this means that there are approximately 4,000,000 people employed in local government, which is still quite a few I think.

who do you think writes all the 'out to lunch' and 'closing early' signs?

- management consultancy Knox D'Arcy.

Junior staff in local authorities were, on average, productive only 32% of the time during working hours

To put it in context the private sector only manages 44%, but thats still 37% better.
- Dave Prentis

It is a red herring to compare private and public sector productivity

How can you measure the productivity of a care worker and compare it with a car worker on a production line?

School teachers I imagine.

Kids will go uneducated, procreate madly and end up on the dole.........hmmmm.

cant see teacher striking just yet, we can stomach a pay freeze. Start messing with pensions and the dogs of war would be unleashed though.

I work in the private sector, however my friend is a parmedic in london and she gets screwed hard. She works 6/7-6 and apart from once I've never know her to finish before 7, she gets a minimal wage, around £20k a year for living in london (she is classed as a studnet paramedic) and only gets the minimum holiday they can get away with.

Some of the shift patterns are horrible too. 6-6 nights thursday to monday. Try having a social life outside of that.

Ian your friend is having her course paid for is earning more than £20k that I promise and gets 8 weeks holidays a year. Oh and she's not a Paramedic but that's pedantic.

The shift patterns for 12 hour workers give you a good social life. You get plenty of time off from working so many hours, if they don't like the unsocial hours then your in the wrong job.

As a country lad, I think it reinforces the respect for all the retained firefighters - up and down the country people do it for the benefit of the community rather than 30k per year, whilst working their proper jobs too.

just like the RNLI, just like Special constables too, and all the other emergency services like cave and mountain rescue... sort of makes you wonder if we even need full time firefighters being paid 30k plus to sit watching videos and working out in the on site gym all evening on the off chance they'll get called out...

[i]"Some of the shift patterns are horrible too. 6-6 nights thursday to monday. Try having a social life outside of that."[/i]
Not everyone's social life revolves around going to the pub on Saturday night.

only gets the minimum holiday they can get away with.

This bit is still making me laugh.

The good thing about the NHS is they now have some pretty good websites providing lots of info, like the LAS which gives us this info.

What benefits will I receive?

To give you an idea, here are the current pay levels for a student paramedic working in outer London, and doing the full range of shifts*:

* Year 1 £21,311 inc. (during initial 26-week course) rising to £25,785 inc.
* Year 2 £27,507 inc.
* Year 3 £29,228 inc.
* On qualification as a paramedic £29,884 inc.

*This salary is basic pay plus outer London high cost area supplement and full (25 per cent) unsocial hours enhancement.

You will also receive a number of other benefits.

* A minimum of 27 days' holiday each year, increasing with service.
* New NHS employees from April 2008 will be eligible to join the Amended NHS Pension Scheme which provides membership to a final salary scheme with pension linked to pay near retirement. Other benefits include life assurance, dependent benefits, voluntary early retirement, ill-health retirement benefits and the option to increase retirement benefits.
* Access to a round-the-clock employee assistance programme.
* Personal and professional development and training opportunities.
* Interest-free travel season ticket loan.
* Childcare voucher scheme.
* Access to NHS discounts, offering NHS employees a range of money-saving deals.
* Access to occupational health and counselling services.

* A minimum of 27 days' holiday each year, increasing with service.

...right. Which is a day below the statutory minimum for the private sector.

"You are entitled to a minimum of 5.6 weeks' holiday a year. This is called statutory holiday. To work out how many days holiday you can take a year, you need to multiply 5.6 by the number of days you work in a week.

For example:

* if you work a five-day week, you are entitled to 28 days' paid holiday a year (5.6 X 5)."

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/holidays_and_holiday_pay.htm

ZuluEleven...are you so stupid as to think retained don't get paid? Retained firefighters do it purely and simply for the money and are now taking work from full-time firefighters.
MrFC is a firefighter and he does not earn £30.
He does not have another job.
What a load of gobshites on this forum!!!!

Retained firefighters do it purely and simply for the money and are now taking work from full-time firefighters.

Yeah, of course... 🙄

Konabunny.... I think you miss an important point about bank holidays being included in the statutory calculation (hence the increase in 2009) but excluded from the paramedic holiday allowance. So they get 8 more bank holidays on top of their standard allowance.

Yup exactly Yeti roughly something like that. If you work them you get extra hours of holiday for lieu time.

Zulu there is some current upset with this, the work FC refers to is they are using retained staff to cover overtime and the likes as it's cheaper to pay them. The retained staff I know all do it for the money,

yup i get a lot of holiday, problem is holiday on paper and holiday time off is very different. I currently have 290 hours leave outstanding. Can I book any of that off? No. NO family holiday, no chance of getting more than a week in a row off, no chance of christmas, school holidays, or bank holidays off.

Don't get me wrong, I knew the situation when I joined up and after working 7, 12 hour shifts in a row sometimes I get 6 days off but it does balance out as a 40 hour week, the same as everyone else.

Drac, from the retained FF I know, I think saying that they do it for the money is like saying the TA do it for the money, or that the RNLI do it for the money - its a small part of a complex equation, and given that their employers and local communities play ball I don't think you can put it down to the individuals personal greed - given that most rural areas are covered by retained crews, the value for money compared with keeping a full time fire crew on duty 24/7 in every small town doesn't even begin to compare.

I dont think that being selected to cover shortages instead of paying o/t for full time crews is the same thing as "taking work off them" - simple economics, if the full timers were willing to work overtime for time rate instead of xtra bubble then I'm sure they'd choose them instead...

Meehaja how does your service work the holidays? Ours is down the Team Leader and the station to come up with a holiday rota. There's some restrictions of how many staff you can have off per week and the year is split into blocks where you can have a maximum of weeks off each per week.

Just finished our holiday rota the other week and made sure all members of staff had at least 2 weeks of between July and August.

So Zulu if they do it for the community and not the money why do they happily go to other manned stations and work overtime? Of course it's not all services and not all staff but that's one of the problems FC was referring to.

Local communities don't play ball, it's the service they have they have no real choice. The employers are very good in letting them go but the reason some do it is because it could be their business of family who needs the appliance.

Yes the money is a small part but don't think they are doing for the love, if they stopped paying I'd bet they'd stop doing it.

meehaja - that's over a years worth of holiday (inc bank hols)! Legally they have to give you a certain amount of time off per year... 28 days as noted by konabunny.

Personally I'd point this out to them. If nothings done about it contact your union. If many others are in the same situation then you'll just have to str.....

z-11 they dont do it purely for the money but the fact they are paid suggests it is part of the equation. Without the retained firefighter their own houses and the business that employ them would be at greater risk. It is not a selfless act of altruism either.
As you note they are cheaper hence why they are taking the jobs of FT firefighters as it ciosts less. Necessary on rural areas but they have them in [big]cities now as well you know.

As you note they are cheaper hence why they are taking the jobs of FT firefighters as it ciosts less. Necessary on rural areas but they have them in [big]cities now as well you know.

Why should this be a problem? as long as the cover is there and can meet the necessary response times, then why shouldn't we, as a society choose the most cost effective solution?

z-11 they dont do it purely for the money but the fact they are paid suggests it is part of the equation. Without the retained firefighter their own houses and the business that employ them would be at greater risk. It is not a selfless act of altruism either.

Surely the same argument applies to full time firecrews? I dont think that they do it "purely for the money" either!

IanMmmm - Member

@ernie_lynch

Have you seen this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11034769

No I hadn't. Thank you - I am always fascinated by the opinions of management consultants.

I am also fascinated by your claim that there are [i]"4,000,000 people employed in local government"[/i].

There are not 4 million people employed in local government. The figure is less than 3 million ...... which includes, teachers, social services, police, firefighters and manual council workers.

So there you are ........ I've slashed over a million jobs without even trying 8)

.

stumpyjon - Member

Dave Prentis

How can you measure the productivity of a care worker and compare it with a car worker on a production line?

[b]"Quite easily really, that care worker will have set tasks to do during the working shift which hopefully will include quality contact time with the residents. Time not spent doing these duties is ineffieicency."[/b]

Who says [i]"quality contact time with the residents"[/i] represents productivity ...........you ?

The reality is, is it is often neigh on impossible to measure productivity in the public sector. Just because someone writes a letter or makes a phone call does not mean they have been productive. And in the public sector productivity remains at a constant level because outputs are given the same price as inputs.

Add to that the effect of Baumol's cost disease :

[i]Baumol's cost disease is often used to describe the lack of growth in productivity in public services such as hospitals and colleges. Since many public administration activities are heavily labour-intensive there is little growth in productivity over time because productivity gains come essentially from a better capital technology. As a result growth in the GDP will generate little more resources to be spent in public sector. Thus public sector production is more dependent on taxation level than growth in the GDP.[/i]

http://notendur.hi.is/joner/eaps/wh_meprr.htm

as long as the cover is there and can meet the necessary response times

Why should this be a problem? as long as the cover is there and can meet the necessary response times, then why shouldn't we, as a society choose the most cost effective solution?

Because its not always the most "effective" solution and not everybody agrees that cost should come before the value of the service it provides.

Why should this be a problem? as long as the cover is there [b]and can meet the necessary response times[/b], then why shouldn't we, as a society choose the most cost effective solution?

Honestly how are you guys actually managing to argue?

which is faster the response of retained firefighter sat in the station doing f all in your view or that of a community spirited retained fire fighter who needs to drive there first?
I suspect this increased response time will inevitably cost lives
Is this cost acceptable to you?
EDIT: need to get to station within 5 mins

Well, clearly the [u]fastest[/u] response would be provided by having a 24/7 fully manned fire station at the end of each and every street, with roaming fire patrol helicopters , sprinklers in every house and unplugging all our electrical implements overnight - but we draw a balance somewhere between risk, cost and practicality...

but we draw a balance somewhere between risk, cost and practicality...

Define "we"............does we = you ? 💡

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
"Some of the shift patterns are horrible too. 6-6 nights thursday to monday. Try having a social life outside of that."
Not everyone's social life revolves around going to the pub on Saturday night.

So narrow minded, going out and getting pissed on a friday and sat night is not what i was reffering too.

And drac, i'm just taking my info from her experience and £21k is basically £20k in london, that's jack all

Honestly how are you guys actually managing to argue?

I refer to Junkyards reply above.

Well, clearly the fastest response would be provided by having a 24/7 fully manned fire station at the end of each and every street, with roaming fire patrol helicopters , sprinklers in every house and unplugging all our electrical implements overnight - but we draw a balance somewhere between risk, cost and practicality...

But we have chosen the next best thing. your balance is clearly based on cost and hatred of unions.

I am both a retained and wholetime firefighter and whilst i agree that retained firefighters offer good value it is not possible for them to be trained in all the extra responsibilities that have been dumped on the fire service in the last few years in one 3hr drill night a week.
Also i cant speak for the rest of the service but the age old view of wholetime firefighters spending all their time watching TV and playing snooker just isnt true any more.

Sorry Ernie and El-Bent - I forgot that in your soviet socialist peoples commune of England, we'll have fully manned casualty units in every small village, fire stations on every street, roaming bear patrols, the grass will be greener, harvests bigger and tractor production will be higher than ever, and there will be no need for taxes as there will be no need for wages, we will be allotted everything we need from central stocks....

I started as a retained FF 15 years ago, then went wholetime a couple of years later and am now wholetime/retained.
I do it for the money! As do all the guys in the station. In days gone by we did it because it was a good thing to do, was enjoyable and you got a bit of pocket money from it.
It is now 100% a job! what's more the expectations management have from retained FFs now is far greater than you'd imagine. There is now however pay parity with the wholetime wage so many of the guys would not leave as it's now worth too much to them. My retained station is relatively quiet and I took £7.5 k from it last year and I wasn't the top earner, one guy scooped more than £10k.
As for the cover being there, the RAPPEL system stats show the realtime retained availability and it often makes scary reading! I am in a very small brigade and it's not unusual for 10+ pumps to be 'off the run' in the county especially during the weekends.
as for whether the service provided is to the same/similar standard... There's only so much you can do training for 2 hours a week however this is by no means their fault nor a slight on their commitment.

your balance is clearly based on cost and hatred of unions.

And don't forget Dan Hannan ..........ratty's views are heavily influenced by his guru Dan Hannan.

The man who goes around the world slagging off the NHS and calling it a "60 year old failed experiment" which should be scrapped.

And drac, i'm just taking my info from her experience and £21k is basically £20k in london, that's jack all

I'm taking it from agenda for change terms and conditions as well as LAS website. She's on more than 20k which in itself is way more a student nurse gets.

Define "we"............

Wider society? All those that voted callmedave and cutting public spending regardless of consequence; all those that voted sycophantic cowardly yellow and forgetting what you're manifesto was?

I forgot that in your soviet socialist peoples commune of England

[img] [/img]

And don't forget Dan Hannan ..........ratty's views are heavily influenced by his guru Dan Hannan.

little bit too left wing for him Ernie. The following is probably what ratty would say to Hannan given the chance.

I forgot that in your soviet socialist peoples commune of England, we'll have fully manned casualty units in every small village, fire stations on every street, roaming bear patrols, the grass will be greener, harvests bigger and tractor production will be higher than ever, and there will be no need for taxes as there will be no need for wages, we will be allotted everything we need from central stocks....

Well put Barney.

i too went from retained to wholetime. and believe me theres no sitting round playing snooker, watching tv any more.
we check equipment first thing, then a bit of gym, then drill til dinner. thats if we dont get any shouts. then after dinner its CFS (fitting smoke alarms and giving advice to homeowners, school visits etc.)
at present we are forced to cover at night along with the retained, so we have to attend every shout for a 4, sometimes 5 day period non-stop. thats 96 hrs constant with an early morning drive 60 odd miles away to another station for the 5th day to cover shortfalls in manning. so over 106 hrs non-stop cover.
and im not complaining about it. i knew what it involved when i signed 🙂

but it does annoy me when people think its just like the old days now. if we have a busy night, we can be out most of the night, then still have to be at the station for 7.30 for the next day.

at present our brigade is even trialling sending crews of 3 to certain jobs. seems to be a slippery slope in cost cutting :-/

Quirrel - Member
School teachers I imagine.

Kids will go uneducated, procreate madly and end up on the dole.........hmmmm

LOL nice one Quirrel 😆

Well that stired the porrige then, the point i was trying to make was that fire personnel where balloting for strrikle action, when theres thousands whoi could take there jobs, with relevant training.

So what you are saying is that firefighters should be grateful to have their jobs? Employers would love that.

Now why do you think Unions came about?

EL bent

A few years ago drove a van for the Nhs, got back one day and our very nice lady boss said she was privatising the van deliveries, when i questioned why, she came out with the imortal words, "when you stop at traffic lights,or are stuck in traffic, just think how eternally grateful you should be to me for keeping you in that job"

Sadly thats how things are nowadays, jobs are what you make of them, do your best, take the money and spend it, if you dont like it get another job, or the dole.

Sadly thats how things are nowadays, jobs are what you make of them, do your best, take the money and spend it, if you dont like it get another job, or the dole.

Well I've said before that the UK population are generally spineless when it comes to this sort of thing, you're being told to accept it and now you know believe its the only way...to the advantage of those who impressed it upon you in the first place.

Strange how the French don't stand for this kind of nonsense.

Golden rule:

Do not mess with the emergency services unless you are rewarding them for hardwork.

Maybe those critisizing Londons fire fighters should familirise themselves with the facts. Firstly the industrial action being balloted for is for action SHORT of a strike, secondly the dispute is about shift changes, the managment have told us we have to increase productivity and accept a 2 year (minimum) pay freeze and they want the increase in productivity to be in a new shift pattern, our response as a work force has been "okay to the pay freeze (reluctantly seeing as the councilors who run the service awarded themselves a 28% increase in allowances) but we'll deliver the increase in productivity within the existing shift system", seems fair to us.
"No can do" says the management, it then came to light, because a senior manager with a consience leaked it, that the authority planned to use the shift change to close some stations at night, which in itself doesn't seem that bad as we are less busy at night but more deaths and serious injuries occur at night.
So then our union and the managment entered into negotiations and then without any real reason, as both sides said progress was being made, the managment announced that they had started legal proceedings to terminate all contracts and that anyone who wanted a job would have to sign up to a new contract.
So there you have it, politicans want to increase the risk to Londoners by shutting stations to save money whilst paying themselves more, and if they don't get their own way then they are going to bully the entire workforce by threatening to sack them all.
Striking or indeed any form of industrial action is the last thing any of us want, mostly we want to go to work get on with our job and deliver a good service to the public and be treated fairly by our employer, the same as most people. And we are not resistant to change, the service has changed beyond recognition in the last eight years, and just so you know the army no longer provides back up fire cover each fire brigade has to have it's own contigency plans, in Londons case a private company that will supply 27 appliances compared to the 150ish usualy available for the bargain price of £12 million, back handers are suspected! And for those who make a comparison to what the army get paid, as an ex-soldier i'd always say that the for risks they take they should be paid more, but the wage we get paid as firefighters is fair, just because the army is under paid doesn't mean that every other public sector worker should live in poverty, it's a completley difernt argument.

bazz, the london 'strike-busters' are being trained just up the road to me. one of my mates is involved in the training. and believe me, after what ive heard, the city of london has to hope they never get called upon!!

I'm not getting involved in this argument but when and why did a 'full-time' job become 'whole-time'! WTF is that all about?

Yet more management or union bolloxspeak 🙄

Usual miss informed bollix, before you post read up on the facts, not what your mate down the pub thinks/ said.

I'm checking out of this thread, but for what it's worth Bazz is right on the money

Who will be next.

I reckon it'll be the students
When they walk out they always bring the country to it's knees 🙄

.... before you post read up on the facts, not what your mate down the pub thinks/ said.

Why?

Thanks for clarifying that Bazz

Couple of points - firstly the councillors increase in allowances is irrelevant, pigs with snouts in trough without a doubt but not relevant to your case.
Secondly, although you say that more deaths etc. occur at night, will the closure of some stations affect this? Will 27 private appliances actually be able to provide the necessary cover? Presumably the powers that be have some sort of model which says they can and if so do you have figures to disprove it?

Not being negative or 'anti' fire brigade but TBH I don't have much faith in the unions ability in cases like this and I think the threat of contract termination is a disgrace. I suspect something along the same lines is about to happen in the ambulance service.