[Closed] Not being an academic...

Not entirely sure I understand the question?

Lols, i was thinking the same Northwind.

Try a call centre paddy, or Micky Dees

What is it you want to do?

yes you can but it will probably be harder depending on the field/area

Are you trying to ask whether it's necessary to have academic qualifications to succeed in a job that interests you?

If so, then it depends on the sector that interests you, but if it were possible, it'll be harder, things like apprenticeships if available would be the way to go.

I'll give the call centre route a try, think I've got a good voice.

Nah, just finding university damn hard, pretty much failed an exam today. Having thoughts of departing.

Intellectual snobbery, got to love it.
OP I think that if you have the ability you can go further than those who simply study and have no real world experience. It all depends on the sector, business success doesn't depend on an MBA but medicine might require a medical degree.
What sector are you in?

What year are you in?

I think I understand the question and my answer is similar to that of Junkyards, but I think there are limited fields where you can "excel" outside academia.

If you are in the Arts and Humanities (say English or History) then what opportunities are there so follow your academic vocation outside of academia itself. The list of fields may be limited to Engineering, applied sciences, and computer sciences?

I got out of academia after my Masters and PhD because I realized that in truth I just wasn't good enough to be special in my field. If I had felt I could be been a Prof by the time I reached my mid 30's then I would have stayed, but I wasn't interested in hanging around being medicore.

University has the opportunity to give you skills and exposure to people and attitudes that will shape the rest of your life. For my career a degree was essential, not neccessarily in my particular subject, but it helps. Hope ypu stick with it or seak help to transfer to something that floats your boat. Talk to the uni, dont let it fester. Good luck.

Sorry, yeah I haven't exactly explained it well.

Right, my career interests involve energy efficiency within the commercial buildings sector - so perhaps the idea of retro fitting appliances or the use technology to ultimately lower energy consumption in buildings > cut a businesses C02 footprint > save them money.

Obviously there would need to be a demand, which I guess in the current climate is pretty low.

Meanwhile I'm learning about concrete/etc.

Sorry the sector is Built Environment which is in an Engineering Faculty at a pretty high end university. The specific course is Sustainable Built Environment.

In year 1.

Sorry, yeah I haven't exactly explained it well.

Right, my career interests involve energy efficiency within the commercial buildings sector - so perhaps the idea of retro fitting appliances or the use technology to ultimately lower energy consumption in buildings > cut a businesses C02 footprint > save them money.

Obviously there would need to be a demand, which I guess in the current climate is pretty low.

Meanwhile I'm learning about concrete/etc.

So concrete formulation, strength, thermal conductivity relative to other materials, compatibility with other materials, carbon footprint to manufacture etc etc are nit relevant to efficient design?

(not a materials expert...just a geek so hope I am on right topic area here!)

In short...at 18/19 age I wanted to learn stuff that was directly aplicable to my needs and interests. Now i am a little older I appreciate thatnknowledge in many area links together to make a better person. Knowledge is power!

Left school at 16, learnt a trade, worked up to senior management, own my own business.

Mrs STR left school at 16, owns her own business.

Whether the 'sectors' appealed whilst we were both in education is questionable, but to answer your slightly skewed question, I'd say - no.

Work hard is probably as good an ethic as academic achievement. That's not to say academic achievement doesn't reap rewards, however working hard without academic achievement can work, it's unlikely that academic achievement without working hard will give the same results.

Oh, and some of the most useless imbecils encountered on site are post grads!

*edit* - see youve added some whilst writing this, so probably irrelevant

Argh. I don't think my answer really applies, sounds like you are contemplating leaving? Are you sure it is not Year 1 Term 2 blues?

I dropped out of Uni half way through instead of applying myself properly. So far the biggest thing in my life I look back on and wish I hadn't done.

I can't see having a degree as ever being a negative thing, not having one sure as hell closes a lot of doors 😐

End of semester 1 exam season is the first real for freshers, so i see this every year. If it is year one, don't worry if you haven't figured it out yet. It takes some people the whole first year to get used to uni (some longer). Give it a bit more time, and speak to your tutor/programme leader. They will have had many students in the same position as you and will be able to advise you.

In terms of content, the first year is about learning the basics. I have colleagues who have to teach damp proof coursing to undergrads. The lecturers don't enjoy it, the students don't, but it is the basics they have to know. Next years you'll likely to able to specialise more, and the third even more. The same lecturers also teach the sort of stuff you're interested in.

UG degrees in this sort of subject tend to be fairly general in the early stages so yep, there'll probably be a lot of stuff that isn't directly relevant to what you're interested in now. Speak to your tutors etc, see if that's going to change. Remember it'll be largely set up for school leavers who know ****-all about anything, they need the generalist stuff so that they can decide whether they want to think about lightbulbs, or sewers, or whatever. Built is a pretty wide field.

Paddy - IME you are better getting a degree in something - even if it ends up in a totally / radically different field.

A degree just proves that you can learn new stuff / ideas. That itself opens a world of doors.

If you can think of something else that "will float your boat" then that's a great idea if you can change. Otherwise stick with it.

BTW - For me after a lot of years post grad in computer science I needed a change. The (now irrelevant) degree paved / eased a lot of paths into other areas.

My 2p worth - dont quit in year 1.

I want to stick it out, genuinely. It's a great opportunity but very different to how it was explained and presented before I enrolled.

Getting the required support is also nigh on impossible, so for someone like me without a numerical sciences background, the engineering modules are overwhelming to say the least.

It's a B.A. 😯

or someone like me without a numerical sciences background, the engineering modules are overwhelming to say the least.

In year one - go and talk to your favourite tutor - they have seen lots of their mates back in the day go through the same thing.

Oh- Maths are great if you have an interest. Otherwise they can be a PITA.

Thanks for all the replies people.

Honestly I do not want to leave if I can help it, BUT I also don't want to leave with a mediocre mark.

Currently I'm probably at the bottom of the group in terms of ability, so you can imagine it's pretty off putting when you revise as much as you can, but then you can't pass an exam paper..

paddy0091 - Member
Getting the required support is also nigh on impossible, so for someone like me without a numerical sciences background, the engineering modules are overwhelming to say the least.

Sounds like you either aren't aware of the support possible, or your department is taking the piss. That said, now you're at the uni the emphasis is on you to seek out advice as necessary, and learn what you don't know.

How many hours of teaching do you have? And how many hours of private studying do you do (be honest!)?

there is some talk of 'T' shaped engineers being desirable atm, that is a breadth of knowledge with a depth of specialism. some cultures produce '-' or dash shaped engineers, broad but no specialism, a third culture produce 'I' shaped engineers; specialism without breadth.

this might go some way to explain why you learn lots of stuff that doesn't seem relevant.

stick it out - I use less and less stuff from my degree every day, however there would be no way i'd be in my job without it.

Nowt wrong with concrete,you can create amazing things with concrete. Le Corbusier created some of the worlds most iconic buildings with concrete nearly 100 years ago.
As for qualifications, they're not the be all and end all, I only have a handful of GCSEs and the odd City and Guilds and I'm now a Design/Project Engineer for a company that supplies machinery all over the world.
Try not to worry too much about it, I assume it's just one module out of a load of modules and you'll no doubt do fine in the others.
It'll soon green up!
Bit slow at typing though

Paddy - how long is the course? 1 / 2... years?

My dissertation was in the same field as yours...back in 1995. I bet everyone has copied it by now especially as it's all in vogue now.

Right, my career interests involve energy efficiency within the commercial buildings sector - so perhaps the idea of retro fitting appliances or the use technology to ultimately lower energy consumption in buildings > cut a businesses C02 footprint > save them money.

Anyway, keep going even in the hard times. It will be worth it 🙂

I had some sucky results and felt like quitting... but kept at it 🙂

I bummed out of my degree and ended up getting a job in Stack Testing - lowest rung in environmental but built up experience ended up doing ok then applied for something in the EA and despite meeting all requirements but the degree got no response

The paper cuts through a lot.

Flip side is after that I had a bit of a change now have a decent job (until the end of Feb when I leave to got to Oz) and hold my own at conferences etc. Real world counts for a lot but is a much slower way round. If you can stick it it will be worth it especially if you have real world to put in the mix

there is some talk of 'T' shaped engineers being desirable atm, that is a breadth of knowledge with a depth of specialism. some cultures produce '-' or dash shaped engineers, broad but no specialism, a third culture produce 'I' shaped engineers; specialism without breadth.

this might go some way to explain why you learn lots of stuff that doesn't seem relevant.

stick it out - I use less and less stuff from my degree every day, however there would be no way i'd be in my job without it.

Never heard it all described that way but it's not far off the mark!

As Pogo says

As for qualifications, they're not the be all and end all,

But having changed careers - a half relevant degree just shows prospective employers that you can knuckle down and learn / do some stuff that is outside your comfort zone.

Again - dont quit in year 1!

#Edit - mikewsmith - you posted since I started typing - I agree with all that too!

Chin up Paddy - it's only one exam. Go for a decent ride at the w/e and you'll be over it by Monday - you should at least see the year out before making any decision to leave the course.

STW - you lovely people. Thanks, really appreciate it. Had more sense out of you lot than my 'personal tutor'. The course is 3 years.

I have been in lectures for 16 hours a week, that goes up to about 20odd this semester. I probably average out about 15 hours of self study on top of that. I'm doing as much as I can. But prior to revision I've been trying to grasp maths/physics fundamentals which obviously the lecturers bypass as they presume everyone knows it.

The course convenor is aware of my difficulties, both through emails and conversations. I asked for extra tuition in November but nothing came of it.

Much of these issues stem down to us being in with people on accredited engineering courses, whereas ours is not 'engineering', so the level has to be in line with accredited guidelines. Which I can understand, but for those without the prerequisite subjects you think there would be extra sessions.

As for the talk of T shaped engineers being required, I've not heard of it in that sense, but I have heard of a significant industry gaps in the areas of building physics.

Nice to hear the routes that people have taken outside of university, interesting to hear.

My girlfriend is visiting this weekend, so no pedalling..unless I sneak off early!

Then next week I have another exam on building service design. Gulp.

Cheers all!

a 35 hour week sounds about right. In terms of extra tuition, don't expect your lecturers to give you it. You need to do it, but ask their guidance on where to start, what texts to read etc. It might be worth asking if they know of a second or third year who might be willing to help you out, or another first year who knows this stuff.

On the up side, none of your first year marks will count towards your final degree classification!

I would have thought concrete was a fairly critical part of the built environment. Certainly it is a major contributor to CO2 so if you want to save the planet you should be paying attention - the eco-conscious customer is thinking in terms of "whole life" not short term.

I'd say very few people start a degree with an expectation of what they will do when qualified and then actually do it (even in Medicine you might become a doctor but if you had visions of working in A&E you may find you are more suited to (or the jobs are more available in) a totally different subsection). If you are only interested in a very narrow sector you may find getting work at the end extremely difficult. I think you are digging a hole for yourself.

In terms of struggling with the numbers it sounds like something you need to get a grip on; I can't imagine much of the rest of the course is going to be light on maths. If you are not going to manage that then you may be able to swap to a different course?

In theory you don't need a degree in order to "progress" up the career ladder and "excel" BUT bear in mind that people who make decisions about your career will make decisions on the little information and facts they have. Certainly in the early part of your career you will be competing against people who have degrees (or better degrees) which on paper may make them look better.

Maybe I've had overinflated ideas of university support, I just envisaged time tabled tutorials with our lecturers. Like back in the day? ha

We do have a number of suggested texts , most of which I've referred to, most of these are calculus based rather than algebra, which if you've not done calculus before...

aghh I sound like a right whinger now. I'm not your average student, honest 😉

@ Poly, it is. We don't look at concrete from a C02 POV, we look at it in relation to corrosion/carbonation/microstructure/oxides/inter nuclear distances in relation to compound, etc. So civil/structural.

I'm not [i]only[/i] interested in the aforementioned career with regards to efficiency in commercial buildings, but someone asked what I'd like to be doing and it would be along those lines.

Swapping isn't an option either, as anything else would push me further away from the built environment, and I wouldn't fancy the 7 years to be an architect!

Competition concerns me, hence why I've been asking about other routes in, relevant experience in the sector, etc.

cheers

Maybe I've had overinflated ideas of university support, I just envisaged time tabled tutorials with our lecturers. Like back in the day? ha

We do have a number of suggested texts , most of which I've referred to, most of these are calculus based rather than algebra, which if you've not done calculus before...

aghh I sound like a right whinger now. I'm not your average student, honest

Most universities do have timetabled class tutorials for engineering-type subjects, if you don't I think that's a tad odd. As for the old days, I think the old days didn't have tutorials, the lecturer lectured and told you what books to read - probably as you have it now.

Calculus is something you do with algebra, not an alternative? Really if you're having this much trouble with the maths behind it go find a lecturer, even if it's not from the subject, that will help you. You're paying for this service these days, you have a right to ask for it (assuming you're not already getting your fair share!). You should also have a pastoral tutor within your department, someone who keeps track of your progress and helps with any problems you have. I think you're either in a really crap uni, or you're not aware of the help that is there for you - hard to know which.

Currently I'm probably at the bottom of the group in terms of ability, so you can imagine it's pretty off putting when you revise as much as you can, but then you can't pass an exam paper..

I've never met a person I couldn't teach a complex maths problem to, given enough feedback from them and trying enough tacks. I really think that the number of people who CANT do things is fairly small, it's generally a poor teacher/lecturer or one without enough time to help. FWIW I know someone who struggled to pass every maths-intensive course in a degree in civils, but managed to find someone to teach him in way he understood so he could get a decent pass, who has worked through from the bottom to an associate director of a multinational engineering firm. Don't feel it's the end of the world, everyone finds these things tough and sometimes it's just finding the right teacher. Go fight to find someone who can help.

Also, put up a note on the noticeboards near the postgrads hangout or fire out an email to them (secretaries will have the mailing list) - more often than not they'll gladly accept a few quid an hour to help you out and they've often done the courses you're struggling with.

Have you spoken to your student union? They're not just there to provide cheap drinks, they should have an advice service for people who feel they aren't being supported by their departments.

Paddy, when I read you first post it sounded that there was a lot more behind what you were saying and a bit more of a (quite common) first cry for help when the first work crisis hits. CaptJon is v well placed and his advice is great. Don't panic and don't rush things. Lots of students can mess an exam up and/or find it hard to adjust to things but they do get through it and I hope that you can too. Well done for talking through it. Have fun with your girlfriend and relax a little.

Uni can be hard and modern exams schooling is sometimes inadequate prep for what you are facing now. But you will not be the first or last to feel this or have these questions.

I am not placed to give specific advice but two very general comments. Sounds like a typical first wobble so don't be afraid or put off by a bad exam etc. You can get over this. Second, of course there are alternative approaches to a career but don't ignore how helpful a uni experience can be inso many ways.

Good luck, have a relax and dont worry too much.

my girlfriend works for a company doing similar things to what you described OP. And her sister. One studied electrical and lighting engineering, the other studied HVAC systems at the same university. The work they do now has little to do with their studies.

They are applying some tests according to criteria laid down by http://www.breeam.org/ and another american rating agency. They run some models with easy to use dedicated software and communicate with clients.

Yes, having a degree does help. But once you have passed, you may not be using that knowledge specifically. Rather, you're learning how to use data to fit different building standards/ regulations and how to save big building conglomerates some cash.

When i was at uni (graduated last year), some people did fail in the first year. It doesn't matter particularly as long as you work harder in the next 2-3 years. If you aren't motivated by a subject, talk to a friendly tutor or tech in your department and see if you can get a placement within the dept or at a local company to get some perspective. One of my friends did a similar thing, and he's now at Rolls Royce.

mail in profile if you wanna send me a line,
HR

I barely scraped through some of my mid session exams on my degree. I had always done really well in exams previously to that. I initially thought to my self the I had reached me level and was not clever enough. But luckily I thought I am not giving up. I worked my ass off through the Easter holiday to get my self upto speed on some of the areas I was lacking.

I was fine after that and walked away with a 1st in engineering. So don't give up it will be worth it. Its still one of the things I am proudest of in my life.

Bazzer

CaptJon is offering sensible advice. If your personal tutor really is a numpty then make contact with students a year or two above. Do you have a course Facebook group or similar? If so make contact and buy someone a coffee and half-hour of their time. If there is content that you do not "get" also use your lecturer's office hours and try your personal tutor again explaining in friendly terms why your last conversation was not much help. If all of this comes to no avail, go see your Head of School and make a complaint. While there is an onus on students to be self-motivated, there should be a support mechanism to catch students who are having real trouble and seriously considering leaving. Finally, if you think you are on a bum course then you might consider transferring university?

Thanks all, really appreciate it. Will give a bigger response when I get back in - I'm going in for a revision session (with the course writer), so will have a talk with him after the session.

FWIW this is a Russell Group University.

I dropped out of Uni 3/4's of the year through doing Information Systems, but that was a load of shit. Not geared towards anything specific, and I weren't going to do 3 years of that just to then go to another uni to do a specific degree.

Having just basic A-levels at the moment in hindsight I wish I'd finished it just so I could have something to fall back onto while I plan my future, so at the moment I'm working deadbeat jobs waiting for September to come where I'll be studying a vocational qualification in accounting (AAT and then onto CIMA).

It's more expensive than university in a way that I won't get a loan or grant, I have to pay the fees myself but it's part time so I can work, it suits me to the T, I was never ever any good at academic study as I didn't know what I wanted to do. I tried out Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Civil Engineering, then onto ICT but I'm glad for that as it's lead me to accounting and something I enjoy and I'm ambitious about, there just wasn't enough in the ICT I was doing to be useful in getting a job.

Just posting my current experience from when I've dropped out, might be helpful, might not.

Sorry, yeah I haven't exactly explained it well.

Right, my career interests involve energy efficiency within the commercial buildings sector - so perhaps the idea of retro fitting appliances or the use technology to ultimately lower energy consumption in buildings > cut a businesses C02 footprint > save them money.

Obviously there would need to be a demand, which I guess in the current climate is pretty low.

Meanwhile I'm learning about concrete/etc.

That's pretty much exactly what I do (well part of it). I also did the building services engineers degree and had to learn about concrete, bitumen etc. The detail it went into made it completely irrelevant for the course. It's only one module so just try and endure it. The course gets better, although I must say that I didn't learn much practically useful stuff. 10+ years in the industry has taught me a LOT more.

Maybe I've had overinflated ideas of university support, I just envisaged time tabled tutorials with our lecturers. Like back in the day?

Sometimes I think there is a general lack of explanation by schools, colleges and universities how life changes as you attend each of the institutions.

you also have to remember that almost none of your lecturers are primarily there to teach (unlike school teachers or FE lecturers who are only there to teach). The vast majority of lecturers are driven by their areas of research - teaching is just something they also do*.

So, as a consequence, they aren't there to hold your hand. HOWEVER, they do know lots and very few are averse to providing guidance and direction.

Make appointments to see them (don't just expect to turn up in their office) to discuss what you're finding tough and to seek out some guidance as to how you might overcome it.

Also, don't be afraid to approach some fellow students who you get on with to ask some questions. Sharing knowledge is always a good thing.

*This is slightly simplified.

Hey Paddy.
If you're struggling with maths, I'd get a copy of K.A Stroud's Engineering Maths book at the level you want. There's a foundation, his standard 'Engineering Mathematics' and an advanced.
The three of them will take you from pre-calculus up to the maths level required for final-year accredeted engineering courses (well, nearly).
I've found no text book that is easier to follow, worth its weight in gold. Got me through my degree.

scuzz + 1
If it is the building services engineering course, also get a copy of chaddertons "building services engineering".

Just to add to ourmaninthenorth: teaching, in terms of hours, is small part of what we do. It's certainly something many of us a kick out of as it is a very welcome break from research, which can be lonesome and headache inducing but in terms of hours it is a small portion of our week. Beyond teaching and research there is lots of administration, meetings, industry engagement, special events, marketing, blah blah, and other roles that takes up a lot of our time. There's no complaint from me (I see what I do as a vocation), but the idea of lecturers swanning around in their research bubbles deigning to teach a few hours isn't quite the way it works.

Hey all.

Thanks, lot's of interesting things being said by you all. Good to hear.

Thanks for the book suggestions as well, I've found the titles on Amazon and will be purchasing them soon - hopefully.

I understand and appreciate that the main interests of our lecturers is their research, but it'd be fair to say that a student should be entitled to support, even if it isn't with them, perhaps a post-grad - I had made this suggestion to staff for myself (on advice from others), and I brought it up again today - but that still doesn't appear to be an option.

I'm getting a good amount of support from people (those on BEng/MEng) who are in with us for materials who believe that we (as in my group) should be doing a maths module as it is benefiting them. (this module goes from A-Level onwards.)

Will keep my chin up 😉

thanks again all!