[Closed] No new petrol and diesel cars from 2040

Autonomous vehicles bought as a trip / service will reduce the number of vehicles but not the miles / energy requirement.

But I reckon it will also significantly increase viability of mass trasit, and therefore make EV usage much more viable.

Or, you could swap EVs on a long journey like swapping horses on a stagecoach. Or maybe just swap batteries into another car which would then drive itself to get recharged.

Many things are possible.

Swapping EVs on a long journey isn't plausible though if luggage gets involved. Unless you can just swap the boot over too.

Well you'd have to containerise the luggage or the battery. But in any case not that much of a chore to swap three bags out of one boot into another.

I think as the energy source becomes more finite we might become more discerning about what we carry around. An SUV sized object with one person in it will not go as far as a smaller lighter vehicle with similar capacity.

How about a vehicle (no idea how you configure it!) that is actually two vehicles capable of carrying a single person each for their daily commute but can be combined to make a family sized vehicle with greater range for the the occasional weekend trip or to transport bigger crap round? Or a Toyota iQ sized thing for efficient transport and easy parking with the ability to snap half a car of extension to it for family journeys/ weekends away?

How about a facility at motorway services where you can rent a trailer full of batteries? Connect & tow then drop off as you leave the motorway?

It'd work on the péage.

PS keep the ideas coming I have another meeting with the government's advisor on Tuesday - plagiarism is good for me.

How about a facility at motorway services where you can rent a trailer full of batteries? Connect & tow then drop off as you leave the motorway?

Hmmm - I like it. A layer of batteries very low down for CofG reasons and effectively a big box on top for transporting your luggage. That would not work to pick up en route though as you would have to get the luggage there in the first place. You would have to hire it locally to load at home.

edit - ah - bin dun (at least in theory)

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Indeed. Thing is almost anything has been done once. It's rolling out millions of them that's the problem.

As I recall they can't make them too big because of the weight, so on your trip to the Alps you'd need two or three trailers worth in each direction.

But possible. Now is it plausible.

I also think there should be a big market for something like an electric one of these:-

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Don't get me wrong - I like cycling and cycle commuted for years but it's not without it's compromises. British weather, typical British commute distances and the need to change at work if you have got yourself all sweaty will always put a lot of people off. A small nippy at least semi weather proof and easy to park commute vehicle has to be a win for a big proportion of journeys.

People like owning their own cars, camper vans, bikes or whatever. There really is no need to own a camper van that comes out of storage three weeks a years but the storage areas locally are full. The average number of days a boat moored in Arcachon is out of port is ten. And that despite the fact most people know their holiday dates long in advance and could book a rental.

Look at the number of Air X-bust-my-bike threads despite the ease of renting high quality bikes almost anywhere. People are prepared to pay extra for having their bike mishandled when they could drop theri favourite saddle in their bag and rent a bike.

I think the current model of ownership will continue to dominate with slow transition to hybrids and EVs. Most UK households have two cars, on an individual level the first aim of a government should be to make one of those vehicles an EV or a plug-in hybrid with an 8kWh battery.

One immediate infrastructure incentive would be to tax company and commercial car parks that don't have a charging station on one in fifty car places. The proportion could be steadily increased. Exceptions could be made for car parks not on the grid or in areas with insufficient grid capacity.

There are curently four places at my local Leclerc (thanks for 3kWh this morning, M.Leclerc, while we did our shopping), currently adequate but not for much longer I hope. Yes, we do most of our shopping on foot or by bike but now and then we stock up the heavy items.

People are prepared to pay extra for having their bike mishandles when they could drop theri favourite saddle in their bag and rent a bike.

Not quite the same though. Bikes are heavily personalised, and they are also still used for the rest of the year at least weekly, so you still need to own one. The rental cost is therefore additional. If you only rented a campervan for holidays you would not then own one so it would probably be cheaper.

The only people who buy a Twizzy are drunks or road hogs who no longer have a car license, Convert.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

People like owning their own cars, camper vans, bikes or whatever. There really is no need to own a camper van that comes out of storage three weeks a years but the storage areas locally are full. The average number of days a boat moored in Arcachon is out of port is ten. And that despite the fact most people know their holiday dates long in advance and could book a rental.

OK but what these things all have in common is that they're luxuries. People who just want a bike or car to get to the shops mostly aren't very possessive of them and where they are it's generally only because they have them (lots of people love their runaround but as something they have, not something they'd necessarily miss). Petrolheads, boat owners, flashy bike owners are all a minority already even without other things pushing back against it.

Also I think it's pretty displacable- people who're currently into cars in a lot of cases will end up being into something similar. I thought of myself as a Motorbike Guy but eventually I discovered I was just a Tinkerer Guy, I love my car and I love working on it but I could apply that easily to other things, in fact I do. The actual Petrolhead Who Is Only Into Cars is possibly quite small.

(and even then there'll be things for the Petrolhead Who Is Only Into Cars to do with cars- restos, track or rally, that sort of thing. Bit of a shift to a US model. (isn't it weird that a country so in love with cars has relatively little simple competition? 7 quarter mile strips, hardly any paved autocross...)

If all else fails there's always the Endless Project. Dude down my road is going to die before he finishes his Se7en. I'll be the same if I ever get a garage and the rustbox vauxhall firenza I want, I'll spent 20 years welding bits into it and trying to squeeze in an LS, driving it'll be beside the point.

The only people who buy a Twizzy are drunks or road hogs who no longer have a car license, Convert.

Maybe n France, still need a licence here regardless.

One immediate infrastructure incentive would be to tax company and commercial car parks that don't have a charging station on one in fifty car places. The proportion could be steadily increased. Exceptions could be made for car parks not on the grid or in areas with insufficient grid capacity.

There are already planning laws that can be used to address this. You can make sustainable transport a stipulation but it rarely gets used or if it does services quickly get cut (see QE hospital in Glasgow)

I was thinking a bit smaller than a twizy. A twizy is like a tiny car rather than a covered moped. I'm not sure where I'd park a twizy around here - would it park with the motorbikes or in a car park spot? I suspect the latter.

We had the answer many years ago. Hardly anyone bought one...

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A modern version would be ace - a small capacity 4 cylinder motorbike engine would make them go faster than you'd want to drive them and acceleration would be stunning.

[quote=Edukator ]There are curently four places at my local Leclerc (thanks for 3kWh this morning, M.Leclerc, while we did our shopping), currently adequate but not for much longer I hope. Yes, we do most of our shopping on foot or by bike but now and then we stock up the heavy items.

Conveniently located? Could be an interesting bit of incentivising for the lazy there (assuming you don't just get the entitled parking normal cars in them as I'd imagine happening in the UK).

[quote=convert ]I like cycling and cycle commuted for years but it's not without it's compromises. British weather, typical British commute distances and the need to change at work if you have got yourself all sweaty will always put a lot of people off. A small nippy at least semi weather proof and easy to park commute vehicle has to be a win for a big proportion of journeys.

e-bikes cover a lot of that ground (including lack of requirement for a licence!) I reckon the weather issue is a bigger one than most people make out, so presumably you want something faster (and requiring a licence)?

Had my first go on an e-bike a few days ago, from what I've read about them on here I suspect the power delivery wasn't typical for what most people are discussing - it was a belt drive single speed, relatively high geared so your legs wouldn't be spinning madly at 15mph. Pedalling seemed to just be a means of turning the motor on, with very little effort required to whizz off, it was quite strange! Exactly the sort of thing I can imagine being ideal for commuting without having to put much effort in.

Cycling would be great if you could roll onto a long distance or local train, stick your bike in a slot and then enjoy the trip, and hop off the other end for a few minutes of easy cycling to get to the door.

A huge number of current car journeys are not long distance and could potentially be replaced by cycling. If Copenhagen can achieve 36%, I bet UK cities have scope to get a lot more people cycling.

e-bikes cover a lot of that ground (including lack of requirement for a licence!) I reckon the weather issue is a bigger one than most people make out, so presumably you want something faster (and requiring a licence)?

My wife would be a good example of needing what I'm proposing. She actually has an Ebike at the moment she has been using to go to a new job. It's about 2.5 miles away but about 100m difference in height at a location where parking is a nightmare. She is no cyclist and has no wish to be a cyclist but an E bike has ticked all the boxes. She goes to work in a nice dress and hair straightened ready to walk straight into a meeting. It's currently a perfect situation. But......just thinking ahead to the winter parking will still be a nightmare and on a rank winters day with rain teeming down I just don't think she would be prepared to get suited and booted at work and full waterproofs still don't really cut it. An electric covered moped might just keep her out of a car.

Get her some studded tyres for the snow and ice days.

In other news Porsche has to recall their diesel Cayennes on the orders of the German trnasport ministry. More significantly he's withdrawn type approval for the vehicles as they've found a cheat programme in the software.

Crush'em I say. 8)

a [url= https://investir.lesechos.fr/actions/actualites/emissions-berlin-demande-le-rappel-de-porsche-cayenne-1695517.php ]link[/url] in a foreign language so don't click if you don't read French.

And here's Zoé earlier doing her best to crash the French grid and failing:

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I just don't think she would be prepared to get suited and booted at work and full waterproofs still don't really cut it.

Serious suggestion - cape?

Serious suggestion - cape?

I'm up for all suggestions! Cape's not a bad shout actually. Bike is a sit up and beg dutch bike style thing with guards and skirt guards, alfine and chain guard. I reckon a cape, maybe over trousers and short wellies (with her work shoes at work) should make her pretty weather proof in full office clobber.

I'd be prepared to look skanky but she has standards! It would be interesting to see what the lovely ladies of Copenhagen and Amsterdam wear in the winter but they don't have to cope with the splash for passing cars in quite the same way.

[url= https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/so-the-dutch-do-have-cycle-gear/ ]edit - the dutch do do rain gear[/url]

I'd just say on the wet days wear normal trousers and some wellies. Doesn't sound like she'd be out that long so wellies would probably work. Capes are good and not sweaty.

I used to commute 33km by bike and had to be in a management meeting at 8:00. The only strategy that worked on rainy days was a complete set of dry clothes and a towel in an Ortlieb pannier. And arriving in time for a sponge off and change.

At that distance I'd agree. But for 2.5km on an ebike it'd be different.

Me too. The 30km and a shower variant.

I think in addition to just the change to electricity, there needs to be an equally seismic shift in the physical device used to move around in ( as already discussed here ) that is away from the heavy box car at the moment.

I cant help but think that some super-light transport is going to have to be the future too. Over the years we have bundled 100's of Kgs onto cars ... perhaps its time to strip them right back to be super thin skin framework efforts. Lower weight, less power required.

Worth noting that because EVs have bi-directional powertrains (able to recapture KE) vehicle mass is actually not that important if you are considering minimising energy consumption! In fact, minimising DRAG (aerodynamic and rolling friction) is far, far more important.

In conjunction to that, as current chemical energy storage (batteries) have a low energy density, by the time you've added enough to them to get a sensible range, you automatically have a high power capability (so you can easily accelerate and deccelerate a heavy car). This really is why a Tesla is so fast, ie, it by the time they've stuffed in a massive battery to get long range, the huge power bit comes almost for free! (ok, a small amount of extra cost in power silicon and conductors/cables, but certainly no biggy at low manufacturing volumes)

molgrips - Member
Cycling would be great if you could roll onto a long distance or local train, stick your bike in a slot and then enjoy the trip, and hop off the other end for a few minutes of easy cycling to get to the door.

It's not quite that good though yet is it?

The irony was it was the same for a bicycle as for a motorbike if I remember right.

It would be interesting to see what the lovely ladies of Copenhagen and Amsterdam wear in the winter

Here you go:
http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/2010/11/cycle-chic-guide-10-cycling-in-winter.html?m=1

Much has been made of the idea of having 'filling stations' for EV's, like we have for IC vehicles, but the problem on busy routes like the M4/M5/A30, which I use a lot, is that with so many vehicles probably travelling a fair distance and needing charging, it's not unlikely that with even fast charging taking thirty minutes or so the entire car park would need charging facilities installed to cope with the demand at busy periods.
It been mentioned the possibility of having quick-swap battery packs, but most EV's have the batteries spread right across the floor pan of the car, they're basically a shit-load of 18650 batteries as used in bigger flashlights all connected together, to spread the weight evenly along the car.
Data that Tesla accidentally leaked seems to indicate that the Tesla 3 that's being released today will be able to do 316 miles on a full charge, which is pretty good for a car smaller than the P and X series cars, but still a lot less than the 500+ miles I can get from a full tank in my Octavia.
However, this popped up on Flipboard yesterday: https://thenextweb.com/tech/2017/07/28/scientists-are-creating-a-cell-phone-battery-that-charges-instantly/#.tnw_c05LRa0c
This could be the game-changer in the next five-ten years.

Charging an 85kWh battery from flat in 10ms would need a 30GW charger I think. Did I get my orders of magnitude right?
I see a problem with that.

Even assuming it's half full and you want to do it in 10 minutes is 250kW. That's the peak power of a 100-200 property housing estate (more like 200 on a modern estate with gas heat and no EVs).

Charging an 85kWh battery from flat in 10ms would need a 30GW charger I think. Did I get my orders of magnitude right?

No, it would need one point twenty one jiggawatts.

No, it would need one point twenty one jiggawatts.

😀

Though to be fair you would make a hell of a saving on roads.

Teslas clearly need more power than DeLoreans

igm - Member

Teslas clearly need more power than DeLoreans

Pretty much [i]everything[/i] needs more power than a delorean, they made 130bhp at the crank. You know how it took basically forever in the film to reach 88mph, and it felt a bit daft? The manual Delorean, even without the weight of the time travel kit, ran a quarter mile in 16.5 seconds at 85mph.

The reason you need lots of petrol stations is because:

1) You CAN'T fill up at home

and

2) Because of 1, you wait till it's pretty much empty before you fill it up

With an EV, neither of those is true. Every time i unlock my car in the morning it's "full", so for most people who drive a small number of miles per day, no need to fill up away from home.
I've done nearly 10kmiles in my i3 since last September, and so far i've never used a charger that wasn't bolted to the side of my garage!

Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs (300 if you can afford a Tesla).

So, i ask you, count the number of days you have driven more than 200 miles in the last year? of course, some people will do this, but i bet for the vast majority of you, it'll be less than 5 days a year or similar tiny number.......

maxtorque

So, i ask you,

Well, you asked for it.......

Maxtorque is about right. For the same reason fast chargers are rarely needed.
The motorway journeys, holiday trip, etc is an issue but we need not to come up with a 365 day solution for a 5 day issue.
Travelling salesmen will of course need a 365 day solution.

and so far i've never used a charger that wasn't bolted to the side of my garage!

Count the number of garages in the following photo:-

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The solution needs to have a broader appeal that Mr&Mrs Jones of Surbiton in their middle class detached Barratt home with off street parking and garage.

Convert - that will be sorted. Not a worry long term.

[quote=maxtorque ]Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs (300 if you can afford a Tesla).
So, i ask you, count the number of days you have driven more than 200 miles in the last year? of course, some people will do this, but i bet for the vast majority of you, it'll be less than 5 days a year or similar tiny number.......

I'm doing a lot less driving than I used to, but have driven to somewhere over 100 miles away 10 times this year so far that I can remember. Because it's not 200 miles in a day, it's anywhere over 100 miles away which will require you to need an external charger (only a couple of those trips were there and back in a day). I suspect there are plenty of trips being taken to places over 100 miles away.

Nor does the relatively limited proportion of journeys of that length reduce the need for external recharging stations. My two most recent trips were to North Wales and the Lakes and in both cases encountered car parks which were completely full. I'm betting that the vast majority of people parking there had travelled over 100 miles to get there.

[quote=igm ]Convert - that will be sorted.

How?