[Closed] No new petrol and diesel cars from 2040

So convert - we are all aware of the problems. What should the solutions be?

Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs

Nissan claim "up to" 155 miles for the Leaf.

Others say 90 miles real world range in winter.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/leaf/tekna-5dr-auto/first-drive-0

So with a 40 mile commute I'd be dangerously close to empty without finding somewhere to charge it every day. Certainly every second day would need a charge.

irc

Nissan claim "up to" 155 miles for the Leaf.

Others say 90 miles real world range in winter.

Does that include driving enthusiastically? I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

Does that include driving enthusiastically?

Well if a 9mph average counts then yes.

Another way to look at the refueling situation is I do 10k miles per year. Charging a Leaf after (a generous) 100 miles would mean a charge 100 times per year. or once every 3.6 days.

I can run my Octavia to 400 miles before getting fuel so 25 fuel ups a year.

I'm guessing a charge up might take much longer than a fuel up. A lot of inconvenience for buying a more expensive car which is only cheaper to run because the fuel (for now) has minimal tax on it.

As I've said before the only way battery cars will work is with swappable batteries, and that means all manufacturers agreeing on what the power cell should look like and where it should fit in the car.

I'm not convinced electric is the future

That might be the only way they'll fit into our current usage patterns. But if we can think just slightly differently we might start to get somewhere.

FunkyDunc - Member

As I've said before the only way battery cars will work is with swappable batteries,

Or if the real world range meets or exceeds what you can safely/reasonably drive in a day.

aracer - Member

igm » Convert - that will be sorted.

How?

Good question.

That was why I spent Wednesday in the BEIS conference centre, that's why I will be with the Energy Systems Catapult and Nissan on Tuesday.

Charge at work, charge in every car park, filling stations, battery swaps, street lights with charge sockets - all been talked about, not all practical.

Part of it depends on where you put the meter and the intelligent bit of the charger control - I favour in car, some others favour on street.

In short, it's not a short answer, but it will keep me employed for a few years yet.

Moly has an interesting point.

I think I already pointed out how current EVs (see what I did there) look like ICE cars with the tank and engine swapped for batteries and motor. Bit like early mobiles looked like landlines without a wire.

Now look at mobiles. Cars will change to a similar degree.

irc - you're thinking about fuelling your EV like you do your ICE. Provided we go with slow charging for the vast majority of charges it won't be a problem the vast majority of the time. Strangely fast charging will be more of an inconvenience.

It's been a while since I've been to Canada but back then there were charge ports lining all the side streets and at every car park so your car wouldn't freeze in the winter. i know it's not exactly the same but obviously it can be done.

So convert - we are all aware of the problems. What should the solutions be?

Are we? I was responding to maxtorque who was using himself and his current use of an EV as an example of non problems. I was merely pointing out that his was a niche solution.

I don't think I have a solution, I suspect there will not be a single one. Which in a way might be a problem. An employer with parking but no charging that effectively can only be used by employees with their own driveways. A lot of slope shoulders thinking it's someone else's problem. My thoughts on previous pages have been a change of mindset about what we travel around in ultimately to reduce the energy needed to move them around in but also at the same time to reduce the footprint of the vehicles we are using when not really needed. Also probably we need to be realistic about how far/much we need to move.

[quote=igm ]Good question.

Good answer - not necessarily a complete solution, but better than bland assurances!

Have we done this article yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40715793

Aracer - agreed, no complete solutions yet, but there are some good people working on it. And me as well.

On the linked article, I shall be speaking (panel session as I recall) at the IMechE on the topic of electric buses in September - I know nothing about electric buses, but I do know about the connection implications. Buses appear to be the major culprits in UK urban air quality.

All the talk above about charging at home and range for general got me looking at my situation and what would be needed to make an EV viable for me. 2 issues come to mind:

I live in a rented block of flats on a private estate, We are not allowed to have EV charging points installed as the owner of a Tesla found out. As I commute to work and into town by bicycle I would need to use a charging point in a car park somewhere.

I regularly (2-3 times a month) do over 100 miles in a day, whether that's going to a biking spot or visiting friends/family. As I cannot guarantee being able to charge at my destination or at home - see above - then again I would have to charge en route.

Unless I move house, preferably into my own with offroad parking outside, and the range of EV's gets above 250 miles for a small car then they are not an option for me. I would love to get one as they are definitely the future but when my current car dies I'll most likely have to look at a hybrid, preferably a plug-in to give me maximum flexibility. That should see me to the 2040 deadline (10 years out of this car plus 10-15 out of the next) and the time to sort out the charging and range issues.

I live in a rented block of flats on a private estate, We are not allowed to have EV charging points installed as the owner of a Tesla found out

That's interesting. I may raise that with someone. It's quite possible that something could be done to make it impossible to refuse the installation if it's technically feasible. Possibly.

That should see me to the 2040 deadline (10 years out of this car plus 10-15 out of the next) and the time to sort out the charging and range issues.

You are correct. We don't need to sort all the issues tomorrow. We have a few years to address the difficult ones.

Hopefully fully autonomous cars will be sorted by 2040, so there won't be bellend driving which should reduce some of the consumption need. 🙂

5-10 years my contacts tell me. They may or met not be right.

these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years.. whats the rest of the world going to use..

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

You'd have to do a continuous donnut to do that and the tyres would wear out before the battery went flat. About the worst thing you can do in an EV is drive continuously at max speed which in a Zoé is 135kmh. I don't think I could get Zoé below 160km range however hard I tried.

EVs learn about how you drive and calculate range according to how you've been driving recently. After a trip up to the mountains for a walk Zoé is currently showing 346km at 99% charge. The energy recovery downhill is impressive with a charge of 36kW under braking before the discs start to bite. About 3kWh recovered in a 1200m descent.

[url= https://gearjunkie.com/bollinger-b1-electric-truck ]They have even invented a Land Rover...[/url]

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totalshell - Member
these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years.. whats the rest of the world going to use..

I've wondered much the same.

Will capacitor technology improve by then? I was thinking it would help with a quick charge, although malfunctions could be quite "electrifying"...

In the 1930s they thought the same about oil, Epicyclo. If it's needed enough to make it expensive geologists will find it.

theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years

If Wikipedia is to be believed, it's the 25th most common element on earth. There's lots of it, it's just a matter of whether it's commercially viable to extract it.

The total lithium content of seawater is very large and is estimated as 230 billion tonnes, where the element exists at a relatively constant concentration of 0.14 to 0.25 parts per million (ppm)

Edukator - Reformed Troll

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

You'd have to do a continuous donnut to do that and the tyres would wear out before the battery went flat.

No that's obviously not true. Although it appears they will overheat and go into limp mode under hard acceleration which would probably make it difficult to completely drain the battery (unless you were deliberately trying) there seems to be plenty of evidence out there supporting what I've said.

Well do some calculations then to demonstrate it's possible to run a battery flat on a car with energy recuperation in 25miles/40km, Jimjam. Go ahead, my math say you can't.

Taking the Zoé as an example: 41kWh battery, motor 65kW. So with the motor flat out you get a run time of 40min. So the question is how do you average only 1km a minute and draw all 65kW?

A motorway, No. The Zoé draws 23KW at 130kmh so you're looking at 200km rather than 40.

If you accelerate and brake you'll be recovering energy all the time you're braking and there will be less aero drag as you are going slower, so it'll go further.

The only way to seriously waste energy is to use the handbrake. That'll soon overheat and fail unless the wheels are locked so you'll have to drive along with the rear wheels locked. Alternatively you can drive in such a tight circle you're scrubbing off energy with the tyres (hense my donnut suggestion).

Pikes Peak? A 1440m climb in 20km. Driving up wasting as much energy as possible you'd get through about 15kW (we're getting close to your objective at a 60km range). But then you have to turn around and it's all down hill and energy recovery.

Borrow one and try, but please don't try on the public road because even in the boring little Zoé using more than 25kW/100km will quickly lose you your license.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Well do some calculations then to demonstrate it's possible to run a battery flat on a car with energy recuperation in 25miles/40km, Jimjam. Go ahead, my math say you can't.

Never mind your calculations, here's a video.

The Tesla goes from 88% to 59% in 8 minutes 50. Or to put it roughly, it loses about 10% every 3 minutes. Now of course, that's on track but it still shows that if you're absolutely caning it, you can flatten a Tesla battery in about 30 mintues.

Can we have an equivalent video of an equivalently fast petrol car please?

So?

What you're saying is that creating power to push a car along takes energy from the battery? Wow, you don't say.

Do the sums for something of similar performance, lets say a BMW M5. Those make around 600bhp, and around the ring will empty the tank in 3 laps, or, about 30min......

Difference of course is that without a bi-directional powertrain, the M5 wastes it's KE every time it needs to slow down, and so uses an enourmous amount more energy than the Tesla. How much?

Tesla with biggest available battery pack = 100 kWh
M5 - 70 litre fuel tank = 665 kWh (70L x 32.4 MJ/L)/3.6

So, you the Tesla is roughly, 6 times lower energy consumer than the M5!

totalshell - Member

these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years..

The batteries are 100% recyclable, it's just that it's more expensive than digging it up so right now we're not doing it- they're being stored instead awaiting Peak Lithium, or just reused into other applications (if you buy a cheap lipo or bike light on the internet there's a decent chance it's reconditioned and downrated- essentially like a retread)

(incidentally, Tesla's battery warranty is 8 years so presumably they don't think the lifespan is 5. There's quite a bit of degradation allowed before they consider it a warranty job though.)

maxtorque - Member

So?

My initial post was in resposne to someone stating the real world range of a Nissan Leaf (155 vs 90) and my query as to whether the difference in stated range and real world range was down to driving enthusiastically or not, using the Tesla as a known reference point. Edukator's post that one could only drain the battery on a Tesla by doing donuts for 30 minutes is clearly wrong, hence the video.

What you're saying is that creating power to push a car along takes energy from the battery? Wow, you don't say.

Are you making a conscious effort to appear condescending / confrontational or do you genuinely need help understanding the progression of the debate from one post to the other. I've helped you out here, if you need help understanding any other conversations or interactions between forum members just ask and I'll be only to happy to explain things for you.

Do the sums for something of similar performance, lets say a BMW M5. Those make around 600bhp, and around the ring will empty the tank in 3 laps, or, about 30min......

Costs aside, you can fill up the M5 completely in a minute or two and drive home though. I'm not against EVs at all but if we're to have a proper debate we all have to be honest about the current technologies and their limitations otherwise we're just picking sides and digging our trenches.

I suspect oil or leccy would acceptable if they where just transport and not willy waving?

For what it's worth I think EV manufacturers regard the life of a battery as being when it only holds 70-80% of the energy it did when new.
So an old car only doing 90 miles when a new one does 115 would be entirely to be expected.
What I don't know is whether age is measured in cycles or years. I do know that gentle cycling of the battery is better for it than leaving it to stand.

On the linked article, I shall be speaking (panel session as I recall) at the IMechE on the topic of electric buses in September - I know nothing about electric buses, but I do know about the connection implications. Buses appear to be the major culprits in UK urban air quality.

I was talking to someone from a DNO the other day who is working with one of the major cities looking at changing over all buses to electric, the network upgrades being discussed were staggering

you can flatten a Tesla battery in about 30 mintues.

Which is a lot more than 40km at those speeds. The speed is indicated. Your video proves my point, Jimjam. To halve that distance whilst still driving flat out he'd have to start doing donnuts. 40kms range as you claimed (which started this debate) is nonsense on your own evidence.

My claim of a 40mins minimum run time was for a Zoé not a Tesla.

I didnt say anything about range. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

I didnt say anything about range. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

So you're admitting your point is entirely irrelevant unless your normal car usage involves several laps of the Nurburgring followed by an immediate need to drive 200+ miles home?

. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

No you didn't, you said:

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

Everyone one can read back and I copy-pasted when I quoed you.

This is another copy-paste from you:

I'm not against EVs at all but if we're to have a proper debate we all have to be honest

Which I absolutely agree with, now follow your own suggestion.

One potential solution to the charging time/lack of charging points problem and the limited battery life problem could involve a modular swappable battery pack system.

You would simply stop at a 'filling station' (existing ones could be converted) where your battery would be swapped in minutes then off you would go. Your 'old' battery would then go on charge. The only problem I can see would be the need for all manufacturers to agree a single standard which would place significant limitations on car design.

My point was initially a query . Car makers quote ideal condition mpg figures which can't be replicated in the real world.

I wonder if the 60 mile disparity in manufacturer stated range and real world range quoted by Nissan 're the Leaf is down to hyped up or made lab conditions or caused by lead footed drivers.

Tesla and their 350 mile range is obviously at the forefront of Ev technology but there's little or no point mentioning them if a real driver can't achieve anything like that range during normal driving.

Everyone one can read back and I copy-pasted when I quoed you.

[quote=Edukator ]Which is a lot more than 40km at those speeds. The speed is indicated.

It's easier than that. Nordschliefe Bridge to Gantry is 19.1km, Tesla uses 31% of capacity on that. Assuming everything is linear, that's 61.6km range. More than 48km, but not actually a huge difference (only 28% further).

40kms range as you claimed (which started this debate) is nonsense on your own evidence.

His original claim was 25/30 miles (40/48km), base on the Nordschleife video that's clearly not particularly nonsensical.

My claim of a 40mins minimum run time was for a Zoé not a Tesla.

I'm not sure what a Zoe has to do with it.

edit: ah - I see the minutes rather than miles update - clearly range could be less than 30 mins, but actually not much more than 30 miles either.

Jimjam, it's clear you hate EVs and are posting factually incorrect material with no source to argue against them. The Nurburgring vid shows that you have to drive in a manner totally inappropriate to public roads to get down to a range that would still get most people to work and back including shopping on the way home.

As for claimed range, I can get the range Renault claim really easily. I can even get the range claimed in the Euro test but that involves driving as per the test which is unrealistic unless you waant to annoy other road users (my aim is to drive sensibly within the law without being a mobile road block).

Anyhow, drive a Tesla, Zoé and i3 then get back to us... .

Jimjam is deliberately trying to mislead and you fell for it, Aracer - read back, and work out the distance covered by the Tesla in the vid while you're at it.

[quote=Edukator ]Jimjam is deliberately trying to mislead and you fell for it, Aracer - read back

I'm just posting factual information - somebody had to do the maths, I thought it might as well be me. I didn't fall for anything. I actually started doing the calcs expecting to prove you right...

Not even him deliberately changing miles to minutes between the last page and this page?

[quote=Edukator ]Not even him deliberately changing miles to minutes between the last page and this page?

That's pretty much irrelevant to my post, I'm just presenting facts (I know that's discouraged here), you can make of them what you will.