[Closed] Nice cold, ice cold....

jon1973 - Member
Would you be prepared to any extra 27p for four pints of milk to give British farmers a better deal?

Yes, I don't drink milk often so that is not a problem.

I prefer goat milk btw.

Buy from the right places* and it's not a problem.

*Sainsburys, Tescos, M&S, Waitrose and the Co-Operative all operate "fair price" schemes with their suppliers, the farmers. Some are better than others, and from what I understand, Waitrose is probably the best of them.

I really feel for those who are inevitably going to go out of business due to this

however to prop up an oversupplied commodity makes no sense - the industry needs to realise this and evolve - other countries produce milk on a much lower cost, less intensive model

I saw a retailer's trade representative claim that there's no connection between the price of milk in the shops, and the price paid to farmers.

I'm not known for my sympathy for farmers, but dairy farmers have been hit by a bit of a perfect storm.
Abolition of quotas;
Week euro; and
Russia's trade embargo on European goods
Something's gonna have to give.

It is a cruel industry though - another reason to be cheerful about being dairy free.

Seems ****ing stupid that this is falling at the consumers feet to pay more when the supermarkets are making such a healthy profit. I'll happily pay more but the retailers seem to be shrugging their shoulders like there's nothing they can do.

I drink loads of milk (8 pints a week probably), happy to pay extra pence, what difference does it make when a shop for two is ~£100 a week.

We probably buy about 9 litres a week. I can't honestly say it would impact massively on us if the price went up a bit but I struggle to understand why farmers should be alone in their right to rig their own market.

As I see it a farm is a business. If that business isn't making money then something is broken so you either fix it or get out. If their product is too cheap, then there are too many people producing it. So they need to produce something else or sell up. This issue keeps coming up periodically, and it seems it will continue to come up because farmers, being farmers, won't sell up. I know this having grown up with them, and having one for a father in law.

Over the years, and indeed generations they have changed and adapted to suit markets at a given time, from pigs, to poultry to dairy, to beef and currently sheep, never making any huge amount of money but soldiering on nonetheless. His family implored him years ago to sell up, or to sell some land for development at the start of the housing boom....they could have been very comfortable. But no.

My wife says her dad's biggest regret is selling one field, which he had to do to renovate their house. Now his son is hell bent on buying it back if it takes him all his life. Weird people.

I am not known for my sympathy to farmers either, but they are being repeatedly smashed over the head with sledgehammers by gigantic corporations. The alternative to consumers paying a bit extra seems to be more farmers going out of business. Is that going to be a good thing for consumers/citizens? I think probably not.

The fact that a couple of farming friends prefer to deal with McDonald's rather than supermarkets tells you all you need to know.

I pay what I have to for milk. If it went up 27p or 100p we wouldn't use any less.

Obviously, if the market isn't there, farmers need to look at other options. Two farms near us have set up successful ice cream businesses the last time the price fell.

However, in the uncertain world we live in, letting dairy farmers go to the wall and then being unable to feed ourselves seems shortsighted for an island nation.

See also lamb, beef, Pork, vegetables, fruit, oil, gas.....

[quoteBuy from the right places* and it's not a problem.

*Sainsburys, Tescos, M&S, Waitrose and the Co-Operative all operate "fair price" schemes with their suppliers, the farmers. Some are better than others, and from what I understand, Waitrose is probably the best of them.
The number of farmers that Tesco has on that contract is tiny. It's just a smokescreen.
Buy direct from a good old fashioned milkman who is supplied direct from the farmer where you can.
I'm a dairy herd manager so reading that people are willing to pay more is encouraging, thank you

Surely this should be the reason we need to look at our whole system of food production? Namely that the vast majority of our food is supplied to us by a woefully small number of retailers, who repeatedly demonstrate that in dealing with suppliers they effectively operate as a cartel.

If theres a will to do something, through consumer demand, and pressure then it can be done. They did it with battery farmed eggs. Why can't the same principles be used to alter the way the supermarkets operate in other areas, so you don't end up with ridiculous anomalies like this

Seems **** stupid that this is falling at the consumers feet to pay more when the supermarkets are making such a healthy profit.

Interesting issue this, one that threatens to shine a light on some uncomfortable issues - how the corporations we've entrusted to supply our food behave, modern farming practices, how the government clearly don't want to get tackle corporations, land ownership and what we think of when we hear the word 'farmer' and what all of this means for the food chain in the future. Tip of an iceberg.

If I thought that additional cost would benefit what I'd like to imagine farmers to be (rather than industrial scale rural factories and offshore conglomerates) then I'd happily pay more, as milk does seem disproportionally cheap and I really like milk. But I don't think that's at all clear at the moment.

No I wouldnt pay more....

Yes I would share the extra if production / supermarkets lowered their margin which it looks like there may be some room to do.

See also lamb, beef, Pork, vegetables, fruit, oil, gas, coal.....

fify

Happily pay. We use a milkman not sure where he gets it from.
Chicken farmers get screwed as well.
I recall a farmer saying if tesco paid 2p for a chicken he'd be over the moon.

Well, all i can say is when the farmers are no longer able to afford to buy their range rover sport every year and new tractors every couple of years then we can add some more on to the price.

It sums up the broken system we seem to want to cling to in so many industries.

We have all sorts of government/EU interventions and grants that mess with the volume of production.
We have a business system based on bigger and more is better (particularly when it comes to shareholder profit and procurement of globally recognised products), not local and sustainable.
We all expect ever more for ever less, and that the shelf will always be full of something so 'simple' as milk, in 10 different flavours.

The farmers (not just dairy) are in the middle of this system, and loosing out. Equally, paying them more now is only a sticking plaster. What is needed is a few [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33833958 ]decisions[/url] about what type of food industry we need and want.

I admire the way farmers stick up for themselves, I think us non-farming folk can learn much from them on that.
But I have limited sympathy given that all the farmers round here drive top-of-the-range 4x4s and are multi-millionaires just from the land values alone.

Yup gladly pay more but as already said the system needs fixed.

But I have limited sympathy given that all the farmers round here drive top-of-the-range 4x4s and are multi-millionaires just from the land values alone.

🙄

Well, all i can say is when the farmers are no longer able to afford to buy their range rover sport every year and new tractors every couple of years then we can add some more on to the price.

You, sir, are a class one prize winning city-dwelling ignorant knobend.

I grew up on farms both in Lancashire and Devon and not once did I see a farmer with a brand new car. Farmer next door has a W-reg Suzuki Plimsoll and we had a W-reg (old D!) Zetor tractor until it caught fire. And then we still ran it without electrics until the cab fell off.

A farmer may buy a new tractor for any number of reasons; not least of which is that if you have to spend your working day in it you want something vaguely comfortable and air conditioned. A modern tractor is also infinity easier to drive than an old one, with electronic shuttles, better PTO speed control and lighter steering.

Until you've seen a farmer sobbing over the loss of a single lamb which he did his utmost to save, you'll have no idea what actually goes on.

No doubt you get all arsey when someone stereotypes cyclists. Well, don't ******* do it to other people.

I blame Adam Henson tbh.

Funny one this, I know lots of dairy farmers, and lots of retired/ex dairy farmers, there used to be 22 tenant dairy farms as part of an old estate near me (which the council bought post war), now 2 are left milking.

Clearly the tenants don't own their farms, so at times like this are asset and cash poor. There has been no investment from their landlord into their farms, very little from themselves as they've barely been scraping a living, and they've been unable to modernise/streamline their operations to reduce costs and make them more viable. It's a bit of a catch 22, and while I do sympathise with them, as it is their way of life, I also think tough luck, why should you be propped up/supported just to carry on living a lifestyle you want to, you might not see it as a choice, but ultimately it is.

On the flip side, and this applies to nearly all types of farming, what other industry has to gamble on the open market at both ends of their operation, buying livestock, land, bedding etc at auction. Feed, fuel, machinery, material costs dictated to you, then the same with your end product. Other industries just wouldn't stick it. Farmers do on the whole run their homes, and personal lives to a nice standard, out of the farm, without showing much drawings, and whilst claiming not to got paid a wage. Hmmmmm......

I also know farmers with robotic dairies, fully automated milking and feeding systems, yield measurement etc, they can interrogate the data and find out anything about their herd they need to know to optimise efficiency and income. BUT the cost is huge, and they have only got there on the whole by inheriting farms, and therefore having no mortgage to service, and/or borrowing LOTS of money against their farm.

What's going on with milk prices isn't right, the same goes for lots of other farm produce and the prices paid, but farmers do need to look inwardly instead of/as well as going after the supermarkets all the time.

core - Member

I also think tough luck, why should you be propped up/supported just to carry on living a lifestyle you want to

Depends if we want to keep the production or not tbh. Apparently dairy is 16% of our agricultural industry, and we import a ton of milk products. We're not talking about supporting a total lossmaker here- it's just some parts of the process that make a loss, others make a profit while they lose out. If we start losing serious dairy production, we lose facility all the way up the chain. And then what, imports? Losing food selfsufficiency isn't good.

(I don't have a handle on the bigger picture tbh... How good a use of land is dairy, how much could we switch to other agriculture, what's the environmental, social, economic impact of imports and switches and all that)

Flaperon - Member
Well, all i can say is when the farmers are no longer able to afford to buy their range rover sport every year and new tractors every couple of years then we can add some more on to the price.
You, sir, are a class one prize winning city-dwelling ignorant knobend.

Incorrect- i live in rural Cheshire! Maybe that is the case in Lancashire, but here in Cheshire it's all Range Rovers etc - but hey ho!

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the production costs that are quoted.
The farmer's wage is part of the production cost - it could be £15k or it could be £150k

to prop up an oversupplied commodity makes no sense

THIS ^

Milk price has fallen and Farmers will go out of business. The milk price will rise (due to falling production), everyone will be happy.

Seems **** stupid that this is falling at the consumers feet to pay more when the supermarkets are making such a healthy profit. I'll happily pay more but the retailers seem to be shrugging their shoulders like there's nothing they can do.

Only that isn't quite true: they all operate on a 3-5% margin (I don;t know specifically what margin they get for milk).

As I see it a farm is a business. If that business isn't making money then something is broken so you either fix it or get out.

Only, they're more than just businesses. Leaving aside that there isn't any consumer choice to buy/not buy food, let's not forget food security - I suspect we could measure our national stockpiles of food in days. We already import 40% of our food.

Buy direct from a good old fashioned milkman who is supplied direct from the farmer where you can

The milkman (lady, actually) is the sister of the dairy farmer. Their farm is in the next village. And it tastes infinitely better than the dreadful stuff sold in supermarkets. 8 pints and a dozen eggs a week delivered to the door for £6 - what's not to like?

Only that isn't quite true: they all operate on a 3-5% margin (I don;t know specifically what margin they get for milk).

The asset rich land owning farmer is mainly due to weathly bankers buying land and pushing up the price, making it harder for people to start farming.

Farmign is a unique area of business in that it has to be more than job / investment. The rates of return as an investment are usless, but you do ahve an investment you can use for your life as well as business.

I think when people look at Dairy farming and say just let market forces take full effect or let the farmers diversify e.t.c. Diversification take a lot of money, on top of that not everyoen can become a "friendly farm with shop selling direct", and once a farm closes it either becomes a buiness mans play ground or bought out by a large corperation. This looses indipendance within the market as it become controlled by fewer and fewer players.

Food prices are already artifically low to help give people enough free money for other parts of the economy.

According to everything I've seen regarding milk pricing, it seems the farmers income is less than their costs.
Is this correct? If so, are they just absorbing the loss? Any other business would just stop losing money and change to something that generates profit.

Northwind - the thing is the people likely to go out of business are on the whole smaller producers, using grass based systems, grazing cows outdoors.

The bigger farmers, who are more efficient, and who are making money are a lot more intensive, putting their grass down to silage and supplementing with milled feeds, in a lot of cases the cows never go outside.

Rightly or wrongly, they're margins are better, and part of that is about economies of scale, this type of dairy herd can be colossal. So, we may lose some dairy farmers, but if demand, well demands it, they're is sufficient scope to increase production on these bigger dairy farms quite quickly and easily.

Incorrect- i live in rural Cheshire! Maybe that is the case in Lancashire, but here in Cheshire it's all Range Rovers etc - but hey ho!

Are you Eric in the Kronenburg ad?

"The farmers of Cheshire are treated like the footballers of..........errr....Cheshire?"

Also, that bbc graphic is very confusing. Where's the breakdown for retailers markup, processors cost and their mark up? Bundled together nicely there is gives the impression that the sellers make 46p a litre whereas they clearly don't. It's comparing apples with pears and tells you nothing.

I've mentioned this before, but always worth repeating;

If you drink milk, you really should eat veal.

Here in Vienna, veal is available everywhere. It's bloody tasty too.

You, sir, are a class one prize winning city-dwelling ignorant knobend.

I grew up on farms both in Lancashire and Devon and not once did I see a farmer with a brand new car. Farmer next door has a W-reg Suzuki Plimsoll and we had a W-reg (old D!) Zetor tractor until it caught fire. And then we still ran it without electrics until the cab fell off.

If you drink milk, you really should eat veal.

We pay 69 pence per pint. Milk is delivered every other weekday and comes from a local dairy.
Yogurts, cottage cheese and cream cheese I buy from our local greengrocers, supplied by longley farm in Holmfirth.
I dislike the fact that dairy farmers are not earning a living wage.
I'll be interested to see how the Morrison's supermarket experiment goes. Where they will put on an extra 10p onto certain milk, giving customers a choice.

If you drink milk, you really should eat veal.

why, is it a taste combination to die for?

The milk price will rise (due to falling production), everyone will be happy.

Where are the cows, and the land, going to come from to turn this magic milk tap back on again?

I'm all for farmers facing a bit of reality and diversifying, but food production is something you can't easily chop and change.

Milk price has fallen and Farmers will go out of business. The milk price will rise (due to falling production), everyone will be happy.

A friend is a tenant-farmer and is absolutely raking it in.

One anecdote is not data.

If you drink milk, you really should [s]eat veal[/s] get weaned

cheese, of course, is the only acceptable form of milk for anyone over the age of a few years to consume 😡

One anecdote is not data.

Of course it is. Just a very tiny piece of data and worthless in isolation.

I may be wrong but isn't "data" a plural?

[Pedant's hat etc.]

it's nothing short of obscene that farmer's make a loss while supermarkets make a profit.

The milkman brings mine but I don't know if farmers do any better out of that supply chain. Oh and I do like a spot of rose veal every so often.

I struggle with the over simplification of all these arguments. Supermarket milk is a mere bit player in the milk market but everyone likes a good moan about the big nasty supermarkets. The fact is liquid milk prices are largely irrelevant as so little of the milk that leaves the farmer's gate is consumed like that. It's the price paid by the food manufacturers that is the significant factor in the sustainability of the average dairy farmer.

Only that isn't quite true: they all operate on a 3-5% margin (I don;t know specifically what margin they get for milk).

So the BBC's infographic is wrong?

Maybe not wrong, but is misleading. That 'markup' be retailers/processors isn't just profit to them, within there is the costs of processing, transporting, stacking shelves, refrigerating, wastage for product not sold, checkout operators, free carriers, the shop, the business rates etc. The profit will only be a few % if at all.

If we want farmers to get more, we should expect to have to pay more.

I may be wrong but isn't "data" a plural?

[Pedant's hat etc.]

Absolutely correct, "data" is the plural of "data".

cheese, of course, is the only acceptable form of milk for anyone over the age of a few years to consume

So for breakfast you enjoy nothing more than a bowl of cheesy flakes?

😐

squirrelking - Member

So for breakfast you enjoy nothing more than a bowl of cheesy flakes?

No cereal flakes in my diet either - breakfast is fruit, protein and veg 😀
Breakfast cereal is pretty much just baby food with crunchy bits, you need to quit those kiddy comfort foods and start eating stuff from a farm not a factory.
😛

I could never live without coco pops

[img] [/img]

yeah, I reallllly miss all that sugar and salt in my diet 🙄

Thats a shame. Go out and buy a pack, you'll love them.

Go out and buy a pack...

buy them!!!
I wouldn't even steal them 😉

The fact is liquid milk prices are largely irrelevant as so little of the milk that leaves the farmer's gate is consumed like that. It's the price paid by the food manufacturers that is the significant factor in the sustainability of the average dairy farmer.

are supermarkets price setters or price takers in the UK milk market?

Absolutely correct, "data" is the plural of "data".

Not that it has any bearing on anything but, it's the plural of "datum" isn't it?

breakfast is fruit, protein and veg
Breakfast cereal is pretty much just baby food with crunchy bits, you need to quit those kiddy comfort foods and start eating stuff from a farm not a factory.

Milk is food.

So is cereal.

Both of which are produced at farms IIRC, not that it has anything to do with milk & cereal and their suitability as human nourishment.

If we want farmers to get more, we should expect to have to pay more.

Ermmm! That's the debate and made on the first post.

Flaperon - Member

A friend is a tenant-farmer and is absolutely raking it in.

One anecdote is not data.

In your desire to be chippy, you seem to have missed that I was asking a question.

hilldodger - Member

cheese, of course, is the only acceptable form of milk for anyone over the age of a few years to consume

I enjoy few things more than a cheddar latte.

Chocolate cheese-shake for me please!

(datum is a single piece of information, data is a collection of them.

The anecdote above is data in my view - three bits of information - 1. farmer, 2. cheshire, 3. raking it in)

I enjoy few things more than a cheddar latte

latte drinkers 🙄 you know where the sea is, get in it.....

hilldodger, are you running for the STW sanctimony award of the day? 😉

are you running for the STW sanctimony award of the day?

Happy to podium for that 😉

Good point, there's a lot of tough competition 😉

what percentage of milk consumed in the UK is sold retail via supermarkets?

Going from what was on Radio 4's farming today a couple of weeks ago less than 30% of milk produced in the UK is consumed as liquid milk (bought from supermarkets, doorstep deliveries, wherever). The rest is used is the production of dairy products and other food stuffs. We don't export hardly any liquid milk but a hell of a solid milk derived food stuffs.

30% is still a hell of a lot but the bod on the radio talking for the farmers said the supermarkets were not the problem, especially as so many do the 'living wage' contract thing. He said every farmer wanted a supermarket contract; the ones having it tough were those selling to the food producers.

Your anger is better served by demanding to spend more on cheese, yoghurt and all the processed foods with powdered milk in them.