@v8ninety - accept my apologies, wasn't trying to incite anything.
@relapsed_mandalorian that's a mental figure!
Goes without saying you have 100% support from me... Very sad that the NHS are in the position they are in, not just as an entity, but the individual employees who are having to fear how the general public will see them! Honestly... As someone who wouldn't be here without the NHS over the last 2 years because of various reasons, I am close to inviting individuals who take issue with the NHS currently for a one on one "conversation"... I am close to smashing heads open I'll be honest, at least I'd be doing the gene pool a service by taking some of the non-thinkers out of it for good! 🤬
Pay rises for current health care professionals aren’t going to resolve the current problems
@stumpyjon it’s not the only answer but it would help. My friend is a consultant surgeon. He is constantly losing staff to work in supermarkets where they can earn the same wage with regular defined hours and manageable stress levels. According to him and other Drs I know, this is genuinely a huge part of the retention issue for nursing staff.
He often has operating lists cancelled due to lack of staff not lack of patients.
In another Govt own goal, He actually is willing to work more hours himself but there’s a quirk in the pension system that means if he does work more he actually takes home less because he’s taxed more. Funnily enough although he cares for sick people, he’s not keen on working for nothing......
Sunak threatens legislation to provide ‘minimum staffing levels’ during strikes; you know what, minimum staffing levels when there AREN’T strikes would be a good start mate! FFS.
Very well put.
What the hell happened to the £350 million brexit bus. I fear they are trying to get the NHS beyond any possible repair, scuppering the next government
I fear that they’ve succeeded.
Less so if you are actively trying to create a two tier health system; a basic, no frills starved of funding NHS and a pay as you go, top up if you’re wealthy enough aspirational private health care system.
My point that a functioning NHS is something which effects a huge demographic cross-section of society, in a way that not many other issues do, is based on the fact that people cannot simply make alternative arrangements which guarantees that they never require a functioning NHS.
People can opt for private education so that they never need to deal with state provided education, or opt for private housing so never need to rely on affordable social housing, or use only private transport and never rely on public transport.
But it is extremely hard for many people to completely opt out of ever receiving any NHS provided care. Are you not a paramedic? Is that not a part of the NHS which provides a care to a huge demographic cross-section of society?
And are NHS institutions not among the most technically advanced in the country? Globally in the case of the Royal Marsden? Do they not often deal with medical situations which the private sector cannot deal with, or have simply screwed up?
Furthermore the care that even very wealthy people sometimes rely on from the NHS is life saving - your bank account balance matters little when you are lying at the side of the road waiting for life saving emergency assistant, or simply pain relief.
Plus whatever your personal ability to afford private healthcare it doesn't mean that your sister, or parents, or your friend, can also afford it.
For all those reasons a fully functioning NHS, not a demoralised one on its knees struggling to provide what is expected, has huge potential voter appeal.
The Tories might well want a massive expansion of private healthcare provisions, and ever increasing profit motivated involvement in such a huge area of activity when there is so little else left to privatise - healthcare expenditure in the UK in 2020 was £257.6 billion, but they cannot simply destroy the NHS in the 21st century and expect to survive as a political party.
Ernie, your assertions are all true, of course. But they are not common knowledge to the average Joe with a private health care plan; the amount of times that I’ve been told “err, I have private health insurance, don’tcha know” is comical, along with the crestfallen look when it’s explained that there isn’t an ED at the priory, and they are going to have to wait with the plebs like you and I. However, the distasteful truth is that the real value of a fat wallet is you can buy your way to the front of the queue for life changing treatments utilising NHS services, via a private consultation.
I think that the well meaning error of your argument is that you think that the current crop of Tories are even trying to compete in the next election. I think they’ve already privately ceded 2024, and are scheming to be back, stronger, with a mega populist far right mandate in 2028. That’s why I think they are on a wrecking spree this winter.
Private sector, top rate tax payer here. All strikers NHS and beyond have my full support though I fear the scum in charge are deliberately scorching the NHS.
I think they’ve already privately ceded 2024, and are scheming to be back, stronger, with a mega populist far right mandate in 2028.
How much they lose by in 2024 is massively important to the Tories. Why do you think they got rid of Liz Truss within 44 days? Only because she was such a huge election liability, not because she was determined to reward the rich for being rich.
If Labour gets a two hundred seat majority in 2024 (very unlikely, one hundred is possible though) then the Tories can forget about winning in 2028, no party gets over a hurdle like that in one go.
Furthermore their ability to mount an effective opposition with vastly reduced number of MPs would be severely hampered.
Size does matter when it comes to defeat, which is why Tory MPs made Sunak PM and Jeremy Hunt's budget was nowhere as bad as had been widely feared - he has deferred balancing the books for a couple of years.
The Tories are undoubtedly on a damage limitation exercise although granted it seems hard to believe sometimes as they keep scoring own goals.
The problem is that Sunak is massively out of touch with ordinary people and he can't help behaving like a Tory. The one gift that Boris Johnson had was that he had the showman ability to tap into what his audience wanted. Plus he had no real idealogical commitment to anything other than his own ego.
A really interesting, comprehensive, and informative, article in the FT. Focusing particularly on the ambulance service:
https://www.ft.com/content/5219bbfb-1637-4999-bc6f-9feffcedb93c
I was able to initially read it all without any problem but then I found it was behind a paywall on the second attempt, so possibly everyone gets one free read of it.
A really interesting, comprehensive, and informative, article in the FT. Focusing particularly on the ambulance service:
https://www.ft.com/content/5219bbfb-1637-4999-bc6f-9feffcedb93c
I was able to initially read it all without any problem but then I found it was behind a paywall on the second attempt, so possibly everyone gets one free read of it.
Edit: if you copy the following headline and do a search in Microsoft Bing there isn't an FT paywall there:
Minister to hold crisis talks with unions on ambulance workers’ strike
There are many things I begrudge paying extra tax for, but the nhs isn’t one of them. You all fully deserve a pay rise and do a great job
We spend £5358 per second on the NHS. That’s about £0.46bn per day or £7 per person - about £265 per month. £300m is a mere 15 hours out of the annual spend. The ANNUAL spend. Healthcare tourism is a rounding error in the budget.
Salaries are not a rounding error. But the laws of supply and demand apply to career choice in healthcare as elsewhere. If you can’t fill positions you need to make the job more attractive. Salary is a motivator, working conditions another. Vocation has been overly relied on at the expense of the first two. Hence my support.
@RustySpanner
I'm afraid you seem to have broken STW! 3 pages in and near universal agreement...
The government shouldn't be involved in healthcare outside emergency provision. If the government allocated us all a state provided bike none of us would be happy. If the only way to get the bike we want was to campaign for the government to change the allocated bike we'd have threads exactly like this one.
The only thing the NHS provides that private healthcare can't is 'equality', well you can achieve that by adopting the French system and the government can give us all £x a year toward health insurance. If that's enough for you you're all set. If that's not enough for you, you pay more in yourself. If that's too much for you, well that's a nice problem to have. If you can't pay extra you want to top up with, at least that's down you you, you don't have the frustration of it being someone else's decision.
Literally nobody in this thread has the healthcare they want and instead of going elsewhere you're forced to complain about it on a cycling forum. It's nuts. You can't have what you want if someone else is making your choices for you.
Can you imagine the frustration of a world in which the Baker stopped selling the bread you like and your only recourse was to try to change the national government?
And that assumes the change of Government will give you what you want? Really? Did 'good' governments like the Scottish government give a 19pc pay rise to Nurses? Will the next Labour Government give a 19pc pay rise to Nurses? Did Welsh nurses get 19pc? No chance. The current system will never makes anyone happy (and in my lifetime never has including when Blair dramatically increased funding, and nurses still threatened to strike in Scotland and still ended up with less that half of what they wanted).
....and the problem with salaries in a massive institution is pay banding. If the last 10pc of staff you need want (say) 20pc more to do do the job, but you have to pay your entire staff that 20pc things get pricey! (and you end up circumventing your own pay banding by the back door with temps.)
People want specific decisions to be made around healthcare but (in the UK) we want someone else to be making those decisions, that will never happen.
The only thing the NHS provides that private healthcare can’t is ‘equality’, well you can achieve that by adopting the French system and the government can give us all £x a year toward health insurance. If that’s enough for you you’re all set. If that’s not enough for you, you pay more in yourself. If that’s too much for you, well that’s a nice problem to have. If you can’t pay extra you want to top up with, at least that’s down you you, you don’t have the frustration of it being someone else’s decision.
So what happens to those who need extra care and can't afford the extra care?
Do we just leave them to suffer once their money runs out?
Utter crap from OoB
If the government allocated us all a state provided bike none of us would be happy.
A new bike, I'd be happy. The rest of your post is bobbins too
@BillMC and @anagallis_arvensis
Any chance of some rational argument as to why its "Utter crap" or "bobbins" ?
Lets have some discussion for a change rather than just reinforcement in the STW echo chamber.
Any chance of some rational argument as to why its “Utter crap” or “bobbins” ?
Don't want to feed the troll.
If you can’t pay extra you want to top up with, at least that’s down you you, you don’t have the frustration of it being someone else’s decision.
If you can't pay you're happy that's it's your decision. Does that need explaining?
RustySpanner - you are so articulate and should try and get this written somewhere for everyone to read. We need to hear these stories from 'the horses mouth'.
My own experience of staying on a trauma ward (nearly 10 yrs ago) was shocking. Only 2 nurses, when there should have been 4 or 5. I was left lying in a full bed pan of urine, because no one was there to help me out or empty it (one needs to drink a lot when on medication). One morning breakfast didn't arrive for ages and I nearly passed out. The blood pressure machine didn't work. The list goes on and on. How on earth are health workers supposed to do their job properly without basic tools?
One of the best GPs I've ever had is taking early retirement tomorrow. It's a crying shame.
Any chance of some rational argument as to why its “Utter crap” or “bobbins” ?
Lets have some discussion for a change rather than just reinforcement in the STW echo chamber.
I would agree only it is difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who is comparing the National Health Service with owning a bike or buying a loaf of bread.
Where would you start, and why would you even bother?
"Don’t want to feed the troll." - I don't think he is actually trolling, rather pointing out that if you are getting poor service from the NHS there is nothing you can do other than complain and we'd not accept that with other services let along one as important as health care.
"If you can’t pay you’re happy that’s it’s your decision. Does that need explaining?" - Yes because you are missing out the important part about the government providing a base level payment into an insurance backed scheme. If this level was set correctly then its not a problem. So yeah it does warrant some level of discussion.
"I would agree only it is difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who is comparing the National Health Service with owning a bike or buying a loaf of bread." - No its not it's a metaphor, the point is you would not put up with it buying bread or bikes, so WHY should you put up with it for something as important as health care.
"Where would you start, and why would you even bother?" - Where to start? discuss insurance backed health care with partial government funding. Why? because the NHS is failing and we need a solution so everyone can get better health care.
No its not it's a metaphor, the point is you would not put up with it buying bread or bikes, so WHY should you put up with it for something as important as health care.
I did smile at that. Earnie didn't really make it clear if he thought food and bikes are more or less important than Healthcare. But assuming he thinks they're less important why would he want to make his own decisions on less important purchases, but let Starmer/Hunt/Sunak/Reeves/Sturgeon make his decisions on more important purchases? And if he thinks food is more important than healthcare why doesn't he want Sunak picking his food? (In fact I could make a *really* good case for state provision of food - the healthiest we've ever been was when the state planned our food intake during WW2!)
As for trolling. Britain does healthcare one way and everyone agrees the result is not fit for purpose but keeps doing it. The rest of the world chooses a different way. Is the entire world suffering inferior healthcare in order to troll the UK?
No its not it’s a metaphor
No it's a ridiculous comparison.
On too many levels to even discuss.
Edit : It is also off topic. This thread isn't about whether the NHS should exist or not, thankfully there is only a tiny minority of people who think it shouldn't, the issue being discussed is fair wages for healthcare professionals working within the NHS.
I’m afraid you seem to have broken STW! 3 pages in and near universal agreement…
One suspects this is because those with differing views are not participating in the thread due to posts like…
Utter crap from OoB
…and they can’t be bothered to have an argument. STW is a left-wing echo chamber.
"No it’s a ridiculous comparison, On too many levels to even discuss." - I can only infer from that you have no argument against his position. That's OK Just easier to say that though.
The nurses and ambulance drivers are striking for more pay, not better care for patients lets be clear on this. They could go on strike until something was done on providing social care, so that beds could be freed. They are not, so lets get that straight. I am not saying that they don't deserve a pay rise, I am saying the narrative that it's for patient care is disingenuous. Again this is not saying that they don't have sympathy and care for patients in general, just that its not why they are on the picket line.
can only infer from that you have no argument against his position.
You can infer what you like. I consider buying a loaf of bread from the bakers and accessing healthcare to be a ridiculous comparison.
If I don't offer an argument explaining why it's because I don't feel there is a need to, and I simply can't be arsed.
Thankfully justification for the existence of the NHS is not an issue for the overwhelming majority of people, so why discuss something that isn't an issue on a thread which is about another issue?
The nurses and ambulance drivers are striking for more pay, not better care for patients lets be clear on this
Don’t you see the linkage between pay + conditions and better patient outcomes?
From TiRed up there 👆
the laws of supply and demand apply to career choice in healthcare as elsewhere. If you can’t fill positions you need to make the job more attractive. Salary is a motivator, working conditions another. Vocation has been overly relied on at the expense of the first two.
This thread isn’t about whether the NHS should exist or not, thankfully there is only a tiny minority of people who think it shouldn’t, the issue being discussed is fair wages for healthcare professionals working within the NHS
The two go hand in hand.
People will never be happy as long as pay is banded nationally, because a Nurse in a wealthy area are with full employment is going to get the same money as a nurse in a poor area with massive unemployment. (Or on a bloody remote island FFS.)
...and if you make healthcare a national monopoly you end up with national pay banding and you can never get rid of it with the inevitable resulting misery and staff shortages.
Also it's not a tiny minority. 70 million people have our system - just us. The other 7 billion choose different systems.
If you want French healthcare, then you will need to pay for it. We spend 9.8% of GDP (it was lower before Blair’s famous off the cuff desire to exceed EU median) and France spends 11.8%. The US spends 16.9%. French and British GDPs are the same to within £500 per person (1%). The usual argument for maintaining the NHS is that we do well for what we spend, not that we spend enough or do well enough. Ignore the political hyperbole.
The total tax take in the UK is 1/3 of GDP. So to match France we would need to increase this to 35%. France is 45%. Income tax and NI are about half the total tax take, so a rise in total income tax and NI take of 4% is needed. We didn’t raise NI by 1% for social care. People want to pay more, but they aren’t told just how much more.
The nurses and ambulance drivers are striking for more pay, not better care for patients lets be clear on this.
Those I know understand that understaffing leads directly to worse care for patients. Continually lowering real wage levels for a decade does nothing to help with recruitment and retention of staff.
"Those I know understand that understaffing leads directly to worse care for patients. Continual lowering real wage levels does nothing to help with recruitment and retention of staff."
Then strike for incentives for subsidising training and increased pay for newly qualified personnel.
Edited to add
Or just be honest and say that they feel that their skill levels are worth more than they are currently paid and the fact the NHS is a monopoly employer prevents their wages from being driven by the the shortage of highly skilled people in their profession.
And retention?
The government shouldn’t be involved in healthcare outside emergency provision. If the government allocated us all a state provided bike none of us would be happy. If the only way to get the bike we want was to campaign for the government to change the allocated bike we’d have threads exactly like this one.
The only thing the NHS provides that private healthcare can’t is ‘equality’, well you can achieve that by adopting the French system and the government can give us all £x a year toward health insurance. If that’s enough for you you’re all set. If that’s not enough for you, you pay more in yourself. If that’s too much for you, well that’s a nice problem to have. If you can’t pay extra you want to top up with, at least that’s down you you, you don’t have the frustration of it being someone else’s decision.
Literally nobody in this thread has the healthcare they want and instead of going elsewhere you’re forced to complain about it on a cycling forum. It’s nuts. You can’t have what you want if someone else is making your choices for you.
Can you imagine the frustration of a world in which the Baker stopped selling the bread you like and your only recourse was to try to change the national government?
+1
You can’t have what you want if
someone elseyour budget is making your choices for you.
If you want French healthcare, then you will need to pay for it. We spend 9.8% of GDP (it was lower before Blair’s famous off the cuff desire to exceed EU median) and France spends 11.8%
Great!
Clearly the government isn't going chip in the extra 2pc so under a better system the govt gives me the 9.8pc and I chip the rest in myself. That's whe whole point. If, in the future, the government increase spending by 2pc I drop it back down. Result bliss.
The whole problem is that I'm told our healthcare is a disaster and nurses are grossly underpaid for the sake of 2pc. But I can't top up that 2pc, I'd have to completely buy duplicate provision (but keep paying for the state provision!) or campaign for the government to increase it for and everyone else. Both of which suck.
At the moment we can't directly choose add that 2pc. It could be simple and elsewhere it is!
Other than OP I haven't read the rest, so apologies if this has been said already.
There is plenty of money in the UK, the standard tory tactic is to heave as much of it off to their mates as possible, see PPE scandal, Track and Trace, privatisation etc etc. when i say tory, I also include the Blair years as he embraced a lot of this so that he could get elected.
The point of this exercise is to get us to argue amongst ourselves over the crumbs whilst they rinse us.
So it is time we started pushing together, and the strikes are the first step.
"And retention?"
I would argue getting rid of pay banding and allowing people to negotiate what they are worth would go a long way to fix that.
You can’t have what you want if someone else is making your choices for you.
When I walk into a baker's I know exactly what the problem is and I know exactly what the solution is.
The problem is that I need a loaf of bread and the solution is a crusty loaf.
When I walk into a GP surgery suffering from, say severe hip pain, I don't necessarily know what the problem is nor do I necessarily know the solution.
Choices that might exist in bread buying exercises do not necessarily exist in healthcare accessing exercises.
Furthermore whilst I am fairly relaxed about the baker being primarily profit motivated when solving my bread buying issues I am somewhat less relaxed about a healthcare provider being primarily profit motivated when solving my medical issues.
I’d have to completely buy duplicate provision (but keep paying for the state provision!)
You can't buy duplicate provision in the UK. There is no private healthcare that will keep you away from state healthcare in all events. Without the state provision, if you fall ill in the wrong way, you are screwed. And all this "choice" nonsense ignores that any insurance system also takes choices away from the patient. Or if you're talking about funding the actual costs direct, rather than through insurance, then then for 99% of the population that's just a gamble that you're not going to fall ill within anything ruinous.
All power to the people!
The thing is, those missing out on care are also those who for years have voted for governments that are running the system into the ground, so sod em.
"Furthermore whilst I am fairly relaxed about the baker being primarily profit motivated when solving my bread buying issues I am somewhat less relaxed about a healthcare provider being primarily profit motivated when solving my medical issues."
Yay thats a bit better.
You do know what you want though, you want the best medical outcome for yourself.
"I am somewhat less relaxed about a healthcare provider being primarily profit motivated when solving my medical issues." - So you prefer it to be motivated by your GP not being able to offer the best possible treatment because its not available due to lack of resources?
I am not saying that OOB has all the answers, I am just saying that the almost religious defence of the NHS in its current form is not helping fixing it.
I am saying I don't want a system where people on benefits and limited income get a crap service.
At the moment you can't even get a GP appointment in a reasonable time. It's broken and I think its beyond just pouring more money in.