Opinion polls consistently show that the overwhelming majority of voters fully support tax increases to fund the NHS and social care.
Problem is, they usually mean they support tax increases on someone else, like 'corporations' or 'the rich' or something else nicely amorphous. When they're actually asked to personally pay more tax, suddenly they're not so keen.
You have my full support - I have seen the difference in care provided over the past few years.
In Cornwall there is an 8 year wait for NHS dentists. 8 years. How has that been allowed to happen?!
NHS has put up with these awful conditions for far too long. I just hope there's a decent result for all you amazing people after this strike action.
Problem is, they usually mean they support tax increases on someone else,
That is not how the question is usually framed. The question usually asked is whether they are willing to pay more tax to fund the NHS. And for years opinion polls have shown that voters are, eg :
You would struggle to find an opinion showing otherwise.
Public opinion on taxation has shifted dramatically in recent years anyway, generally people are now far more prepared to accept that decent public services and provisions should be funded by taxation.
Which is why austerity is now such a vote loser and also why even right-wingers who once used the term with ease will no longer use it.
And why the Kwarteng-Truss tax-slashing mini budget was such a catastrophic electoral liability for the Tories.
Just seen someone on twitter whining about TikTok locums being evil, and leaving the NHS (£13 an hour) to go and work as a locum (£35 an hour).
No idea how anyone can consider £13 an hour for what Doctors (or any NHS medical staff) do to be reasonable, esoecially when you consider the shifts, unpaid overtime, 70-80-90 hour weeks and so on.
I’d be starting with double that, and going from there. (Might not need to be spending all that NHS cash on Locums if you had a properly staffed and paid NHS in the first place!)
Posted 49 minutes ago
I'm one of those evil locums.
I do also have an NHS job.
Nurse. 14 years qualified. Climbed the ladder and came back down to ward level as a band 5 as the demands became intrusive in our home life and I've lost any passion I had for the job (I said it).
When I started we were great. Wasn't perfect but it was a 1000% better in terms of meeting patient's needs, staff morale was better and we actually had colleagues.
For the 39 people in my cohort there was 1 job available in our large NHS trust for a newly qualified nurse. 1. What happened???
I loved looking after people. Seeing people get better, making difference to people's lives. Now it's mostly damage limitation and firefighting. It's so very sad to see.
I don't think the nurses wage is a bad wage compared to what some people take home. I'm not destitute or choosing between heating and eating. I have an expensive hobby that is mountain biking which says enough.
I just don't think the wage reflects the job, especially in its current state.
Back to locum:
I work 24 hours NHS and 12-24 hours a week in various other god awful trusts for double the money. Why?
It doesn't however pay to work full time in my NHS job. I need to provide for my family.
Money goes nowhere these days and I'd like my kids to have more opportunities and life experiences than I did, nothing extravagant but paying for swimming lessons and karate has to come from somewhere.
I could work even more hours in my NHS job but the "profession" drains me both mentally and physically. I don't want to work 50-60 hour weeks with a crippled back at 39 and poor mental health.
Unfortunately self preservation now comes first and I have to do what is best to meet our household needs whilst still being present as a father.
The thing is, in my opinion the money is there for a reasonable pay rise.
As agency nurses we DO drain the system. If you are paying me £35 an hour to pick up a shift then you are also paying my agency another £30 an hour on top for profit. £75 an hour for for a band 5 nurse who doesn't have to fit in, doesn't have to get involved in the running of the place and who you may not see ever again.
It's endemic in the system. I'd say 1/3 of my NHS nurse colleagues on my unit are now part time NHS and part time agency elsewhere.
You go to wards/hospitals where there is NO NHS staff on shift and are expected to work together cohesively when nobody knows who is who and what is going on. Leads to poor patient outcomes. The whole system is broken.
I will say that most of us (there is good. And bad everywhere) give 100% effort on shift but it's still not right. Though as I said above, self preservation for the family and my own wellbeing means you do what you have to do.
I sit typing this feeling guilty for admitting that I'm part of the problem but hey.
Looking at the spend on agency staff in the NHS it must be cheaper to entice people back or even into the role as an NHS employee by paying a few more £ an hour, no not £35-£44 an hour, but not £13-£16 either?
Invest in people so they can invest their time in you no?
Thanks for all you do, keep the faith, there has to be light at the end of this tunnel?
Unfortunately not at the moment. We are now getting to the point where it is imploding as described above. Those that are left in the NHS have been working very hard for the last few years and not been listened to. Many people have left for easier better paid work, or there simply isnt the new staff coming through. Every doctor / nurse I know is actively encouraging their siblings, friends not to go in to the NHS.
That means those staff that are left are having to fill more shifts, work harder in the shifts they are doing and all the time safety is slipping and patients are suffering despite everyone trying their best. Some overseas staff are coming through, but they require time to get up to UK standards, and no one has the time to train and coach them properly. Once they get fully trained they then disappear.
Its not just unique to clinical areas. Management are getting grief from government, but they simply just dont have the staff to provide patient care and improve things. I had a fellow manager ring me in tears last week the pressure she was under. She was talking about packing it in because its not worth the constant stress.
Everyone who is left now is working very hard and very inefficiently due to the circumstances. Its not good.
WHen politicians come on TV and say the strikers are harming patient care, someone clearly needs to tell them to their face that it is successive politicians over the last few years that are causing patient harm
Full support here and would support more tax to fund the NHS if I could believe the gov would actually use the money for that and not greasing the pockets of their mates.
Thank you to all the NHS staff
Full support from me.
Unfortunately not at the moment. We are now getting to the point where it is imploding as described above. Those that are left in the NHS have been working very hard for the last few years and not been listened to. Many people have left for easier better paid work, or there simply isnt the new staff coming through. Every doctor / nurse I know is actively encouraging their siblings, friends not to go in to the NHS.
That's what I hear too. We're no longer encouraging our kids or friend's kids into a career in healthcare. Mrs a11y's an A&E consultant and sister-in-law's an ITU nurse. Utmost respect for what both do in their line of work - I couldn't do it, I know that for sure. Mrs a11y's departement in particular is chronically understaffed and mismanaged - affected her mental and physical health over the past 3 years especially.
In Cornwall there is an 8 year wait for NHS dentists. 8 years. How has that been allowed to happen?!
I didn't have one for several years, the nearest one to me accepting new patients was 14 miles away. And i had no car.
That’s what I don’t get, see it in social work as well. Can’t be beyond the wit of (wo)man to square that circle, surely?
It's the "somebody else's budget" syndrome. Happens everywhere.
"For a measly 50 pence per item was can fix this incredibly annoying warranty fault"
"we don't have 50 pence in the budget"
"Use the warranty budget, we spend £5 per item overall to fix this issue over lifetime"
"It's not our budget, we aren't allowed to use it"
*idiots*
I just don’t think the wage reflects the job, especially in its current state.
Exactly.
Another here giving my full support to all NHS workers , on strike or not.
THANK YOU ALL for the work you do.
This year once again on Christmas day I will be popping into my local hospital to deliver a tub or 2 of Heroes as my own small thank you to those at work in a difficult job on that day.
I have been doing this for several years now and try to spread my small thank yous around ... this year it will be A & E but in the past it has been all over
I would also encourage others to do the the same or similar,
I fully sort the action taken by the staff - you are all stars.
Would happily pay an increase in TAX & NI to fund.
All that cash wasted on HS2 could have done so much more good by being diverted to the NHS.
Genuine question (and not wishing to start an argument) but how much does 'Health Tourism' cost the NHS each year?
(When my late Mom was in Hospital there were an awful lot of 'tourists' arriving and departing after surgery and treatment).
How much does it cost to treat (legal and illegal) migrants?
Perhaps we need to start making those who haven't paid TAX & NI to have insurance for there health care?
Again not trying to cause an argument but there are fundament issues that need sorting to free up cash and services - like removing the layers of management that seem to exist for no apparent reason.
My riding buddy's wife is ex-peads critical care and had to leave do to stress/MH issues due to conditions etc.
Oh and why make staff pay for parking???
Health Tourism costs around £300m annually, around 0.3% of the total NHS budget according to the BMJ.
Not the toughest Google if I'm honest.
How much does health tourism cost the NHS annually?
How much does it cost to treat (legal and illegal) migrants?
We’re back to those 2016 campaign videos showing the NHS suddenly being wait free and all the faces being white. It’s fantasy land. Migrants are not the problem the NHS is facing… an aging population, sky high inflation for equipment and drugs in the medical sector, refusal to allow and fund the training of enough staff, and deliberate downward pressure on real wages for a decade are what we should be looking at.
@kelvin nah mate it's those foreigners and middle managers to blame.
To the Op, you have my full support. Do what you must to hold these ****ers to the fire to keep staff and patients safe.
Genuine question (and not wishing to start an argument) but how much does ‘Health Tourism’ cost the NHS each year?
Virtually ****ing nothing, it is an excuse and a distraction designed to divide and conquer. Tax avoidance of the other hand costs the country at least 35 billion a year, don't look to blame the poor, sick and desperate, blame the rich and powerful.
Honestly have a listen to this it really expresses how I feel about it. Never loved Sleaford Mods but this is bang on.
But on the good headphones.
We would be marching on Parliament to this in the nineties, why can so many not see what’s going on.
Tax avoidance of the other hand costs the country at least 35 billion a year
vs £300 million, I know where I'd rather HMRC and the Govt focus their attention to generate revenue.
@kelvin - not saying it would solve the problem overnight. I was just curious as to how much time, resource and money it costs.
The same with the 'many layers of management'.
Perhaps we should start charging for certain services? In Jersey you have to pay £35 (might have gone up in the 10 years since) to see the Doctor. Surely that would stop Mrs Miggs from just booking an appointment everyday just so she has someone to talk too?
One of my friends is a nurse who left the NHS to work in Jersey. Sensible hours, full staffing, better pay. Nothing to do with charging in primary care though. Charges for dentistry hasn’t sorted out dental care, has it. Dissuading the poor from getting things checked out as early as possible won’t drive down costs in healthcare. Your little joke about how social care bleeds into primary care is important though. Mrs Miggs needs to be helped. Cuts in areas outside the NHS does impact on the NHS… heavily. The same is also happening in education/schools.
What about a STW ride to one of the big pickets, take cake and shit or do a big barbecue for them.
I’ve had a few bits sewn back on, but they basically saved my life on Friday.
Edit I can’t be there for a whilecos I’m still a bit ****ed.
The same with the ‘many layers of management’.
This mostly doesn't exist. The NHS is probably one of the largest "under managed" organisations there is. When MPs say things like "The money must go to front line services" the end point of what that means is all the normal management functions will now be some-ones "Other Job" that they do for no extra pay in between doing the job they do actually get paid to do. They mostly don't want to do it, they're not interested or very good at it and they can **** things up to a high standard very quickly.
Nurses and other clinical staff have my full support,
As an ex prison officer with a wife who was a staff nurse for 30 years, you all have our full support OP!
Full support as a firefighter with wife in the NHS working in MH.
All I’d add is prepare yourself for the government media slur machine. It’s unfortunately very effective and turns groups from the most celebrated to vilified in weeks. But the reality is the majority will continue to support your fight.
Additionally, whatever the end result try to not treat people who didn’t participate in the industrial action differently afterwards. This has unfortunately been a poison running through the veins of ours and many organisations that takes a long time to fade.
Also Fireservice very likely to take industrial action in the new year. Yay (sarcasm)
I know where I’d rather HMRC and the Govt focus their attention to generate revenue.
We would except we are in the same downward spiral of lack of staff, lack of training, lack of 21st century IT and increasingly unnecessarily complicated regulations.*
Every £ spent on an extra HMRC bod raises £10 for the exchequer, apparently.
*I'm not saying tax inspectors work is on a par with health care, to be clear.
Additionally, whatever the end result try to not treat people who didn’t participate in the industrial action differently afterwards. This has unfortunately been a poison running through the veins of ours and many organisations that takes a long time to fade.
Good point - many people can't afford to lose a day's pay. They need support from those who can, not vilifying as scabs.
Surely that would stop Mrs Miggs from just booking an appointment everyday just so she has someone to talk too?
And when Mrs Miggs doesn't go to the doctor's because she can't afford it and later it turns out she has, say, some form of cancer which now much more advanced, expensive to treat and more likely to kill her?
This mostly doesn’t exist. The NHS is probably one of the largest “under managed” organisations there is. When MPs say things like “The money must go to front line services” the end point of what that means is all the normal management functions will now be some-ones “Other Job” that they do for no extra pay in between doing the job they do actually get paid to do. They mostly don’t want to do it, they’re not interested or very good at it and they can **** things up to a high standard very quickly.
I work with the NHS every day, as my company provides SaaS to NHS organisations and departments.
Management and administrative support is vital, as (as quoted above), if they're not there the actual clinicians have to spend more of their time doing it and in general (obviously it's important that the clinicians spend some time doing admin as they have the knowledge and training necessary for some off it) I think it would probably be better if they instead could spend that time doing direct clinical care or not being at work.
Surely that would stop Mrs Miggs from just booking an appointment everyday just so she has someone to talk too?
Is that really a significant reason why there are currently unacceptably long waits for GP appointments?
If so surely the way to stop that would be for the surgery receptionist not to give Mrs Miggs an appointment everyday, rather than assume she is of limited financial means?
And for years opinion polls have shown that voters are
Sadly what they say and what they vote for (lower taxation) is not the same thing. Recall that 40% of UK households do not pay income tax. It's easy to say that "people" should pay more to fund the NHS, and I agree. But often it's "other" people, "the rich", etc. However on a purely economic argument, 1/10 nursing positions are empty. Supply and Demand rules apply to the labour market and clearly there is an issue with recruitment into the healthcare profession that would change with higher wages.
We are spending £100 per person (£6.6bn) more according to the government. This week my FIL spent a night in an ambulance with a life-threatening condition as there was no bed in acute admissions. He was only let into the hospital when the fuel (that ran the heating) ran out in the ambulance!
Health Tourism costs around £300m annually, around 0.3% of the total NHS budget according to the BMJ.
Much like benefit fraud, the papers whip everyone up into a frothing pile of rage and sputum about all the benefit scroungers, Turns out that it's a miniscule fraction of the recipients of benefits are actually claiming benefits they aren't entitled to, and the vast majority of those are actually claiming the wrong benefits rather than scrounging. An admin error. There is a good chunk of benefit fraud investigations that eventually result in more benefits being paid...
Recall that 40% of UK households do not pay income tax.
The point is that increasing taxes to provide extra funding for the NHS has been popular with voters for a considerable time. Even if 4O% of households don't pay income tax it doesn't make the policy less popular.
There is plenty of evidence that a ring-fenced tax (rise or application) to provide extra NHS funding is a vote winner, whether or not as a single issue it can decide a general election result.
It is a fact very much recognised by the populist-seeking Shadow Chancellor :
Even if 4O% of households don’t pay income tax it doesn’t make the policy less popular.
It makes it MORE popular 😉 . The increase in NI for social care (which would be paid by a much larger proportion of workers) didn't survive the first encounter with the enemy https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-for-the-health-and-social-care-levy
100% support from me. You would think that a Tory government would understand supply and demand, and that so many people leaving the NHS was proof of the problems - but they are determined not to budge. Paying nurses enough to keep the NHS staffed won't even add to inflation, as it would be paid for through tax not consumers.
What worries me is that Jeremy Hunt holds the Government's purse strings, and one of his proudest achievements was settling the junior doctors dispute by forcing them to accept something they weren't happy with.
I'd quite happily pay more for the NHS, but on the caveat it is the NHS not private.
From the medical staff I know there's a lot of variance in pay and conditions. My OH is a band 6 district nurse, £40k pa with 8 weeks holiday and good pension so to be honest that's a bloody good deal for a 37.5hr week. She's a lucky one, but they are understaffed, do extra hours for TOIL which let's face it doesn't help anyone really.
I working conditions seem poor across the board with never enough staff to do the job to the legal standard or safely, this really has to change, quite why none of the political parties are nailing this is beyond me.
What happened for it to get to this stage? I'm lucky, NHS dentist and 6 monthly appointments, however seeing my GP is near on impossible. It's been much harder to see a GP over the last 5 years ago is a pre COVID issue.
I'm involved in hospital condition especially operating theatres, there's a significant amount of investment, but the project planning and management is always appalling, quite how these firms make profit I'll never know. Current project is a year behind, coordination of services a joke, most jobs are completed multiple times, it's infuriating all this wasted money.
@rustyspanner you and everyone else who work in the nhs have my full support (and the newspapers/tory guff etc i take no notice of at all).
they definitely do not speak for me
Full support from here and I shout loudly for the NHS and the great staff.
If only we chould all get the Boris to fund the false advert £350 million a week to the NHS, it takes the piss that that he can earn a million for 5 after dinner speeches, there is no justice.
Keep up the good work.
The increase in NI for social care (which would be paid by a much larger proportion of workers) didn’t survive the first encounter with the enemy
Precisely because it was seen as unfair, not because it was a tax increase to provide extra funding for social care.
Despite claiming to be huge fans of Adam Smith the Tories initially chose to ignore, as they often do, one of Adam Smith's four canons of taxation - equity.
The National Health Service, and social care, is very much based on the principal of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need", when it comes to access.
Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems, all ostensibly to the left of the Tories, strongly opposed the proposed increase in NI. Not because they didn't approve of extra NHS funding through taxation, as my above link to Labour's vote winning taxation proposal suggests, but because extra funding has to be provided in a fair manner.
If I didn't make that caveat obvious in my original comment it's only because I thought it was self-evident!
Tax the banks and energy producers, close the tax loopholes, and fund the NHS - it's a certain vote winning policy! But not very Tory.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/02/big-oil-profits-energy-bills-windfall-tax
https://www.ft.com/content/2f643032-5ec0-40c7-bf60-8ac3a6c846ce
I had the same idea and forwarded it to Labour who thought it was shit.
Give tax payers the opportunity to overpay taxes, but they can specify where it goes- NHS, Policing, socia care, give a few nice options.
Say you do your Self Assessment, you’ve had a massive year so you stick £5k extra in for NHS.
The terms and conditions may be, it goes directly into the account, must not then lead to less cash from GOVT, and within 5 years if you have a bad year you can pull half back.
If companies overpay- they could be shout about it.
Thinking about it, who would overpay while the super rich pay **** all. It’s not going to work.
Ambo bod here. I find this thread heartening, thank you. But it’s too late, I fear. We are seeing system collapse in my area as I type. There are many cases outstanding in my area for over 24hrs right now. It’s invariably old people on the floor because our stupid system prioritises young people who have a variety of relatively minor ailments, for reasons no one seems to be able to fathom, or solve, much to our unending frustration. We have multiple resources unable to offload at hospitals all over our region. As I type, a close friend is still waiting to offload a poorly patient since 1000 this morning. Their shift ended at 1845. My colleagues are broken. They no longer feel valued. Motivation and morale are lower than I’ve ever known. We are losing staff to multiple more lucrative, less stressful vocations both in and outside the NHS, and who can blame them? Paramedics who self fund their qualifications end up in £30k+ of debt for the privilege of earning (relative to the graduate market rate) shit money, on relief shifts, working nights and weekends, treated like an expendable bum on a seat rather than a human being and not finishing on time. Ever.
This is just the Ambo story. Poor nurses, doctors and associates in hospitals are broken. There’s no longer any motivation to work fast or smart. Sickness levels are through the roof.
Sunak threatens legislation to provide ‘minimum staffing levels’ during strikes; you know what, minimum staffing levels when there AREN’T strikes would be a good start mate! FFS.
It’s ****ed. The Tories have won.
The Tories have won.
The Tories have been continuously shooting themselves in foot for over a year now.
I don't think the healthcare workers dispute they are currently engaged with is something which they are relishing. Believe me this is not going according to Rishi Sunak's preferred script.
As the Tories stagger from one disaster to the next one thing is certain - the current Parliament will be automatically dissolved in two years minus two days if it isn't dissolved before then.
To hang on to the very end will quite rightly be seen as an act of desperation, which will reflect very badly on the Tories. For that reason it is more likely that a general election will be called in 18 months time.
It is highly likely, to say the least, that there will be no Tory majority government after the general election, much more likely they will suffer catastrophic loses.
As a consequence the Tories's priority for the next 18 months will be to limit the inevitable damage which they will face. The last 'mini budget' had this in mind. The Tories are, despite their huge majority, actually in a significantly weak position.
Another 18 months of Tory government is clearly a grim prospect for anyone working in the NHS, or relying on care from the NHS, but I wouldn't describe it as a victory for the Tories, more digging their own graves.
A functioning NHS is something which effects a huge demographic cross-section of society in a way that not many other issues do.
Ernie, I largely agree with your analysis, except in the assertion that this isn’t going Sunak’s way. I can’t help but think that Sunak et al, knowing full that they are outta here in 18-24months, are hell bent on the ideological destruction of everything that Tories hate. Socialised health care, unions, the spirit and rights of the working (including the working middle) classes. All whilst lining their own pockets and lining up their positions of influence and power in various directorships. They have NO political incentive whatsoever to bring the current widespread industrial unrest to a mutually satisfactory solution, as evidenced by their constant union baiting behaviour. In fact I believe that they think that the worse condition that they leave the country in the better, because the incoming Labour government can then be sniped and attacked and blamed constantly by the puppet media, and most of the population will suck it up, and return a rejuvenated Tory majority in six years time. It’s all so ****ing depressing. Money always wins over humanity.
A functioning NHS is something which effects a huge demographic cross-section of society in a way that not many other issues do.
Less so if you are actively trying to create a two tier health system; a basic, no frills starved of funding NHS and a pay as you go, top up if you’re wealthy enough aspirational private health care system.
It’s the ‘aspire to own your own home’ strategy of this generation.
Tax avoidance of the other hand costs the country at least 35 billion a year
Yes a staggering amount that someone really should try harder to obtain.
vs £300 million, I know where I’d rather HMRC and the Govt focus their attention to generate revenue.
£300m isn't too insignificant is it though?
How many extra nurses, paramedics etc would that fund per year?
Not to mention the additional patients that could be treated due to freer beds & resources.
£300mil is actually fairly insignificant, when spread across the service IF it’s even an accurate number. It would cost a significant amount in admin and enforcement to try to collect, it’s likely that many either can’t or won’t pay, hence why they are willing to travel across the globe for frankly, average care (if they could afford to pay there’s much better options) and refusing to treat people would be inhumane. So there are much better uses of resources. Stop trying to incite jingoistic hatred, please; it’s a distasteful, divisive and transparent dog whistle tactic.
As an NHS clinician I’m happy to treat humans in need wherever they hail from originally, it’s the humane thing to do.
Best place to put any additional funding is into social care and free up beds and skilled health care professionals to concentrate on people who need medical care. The problem is those requiring social care is rising exponentially due to increased age, terrible lifestyles, increasing expectations of support, growing population etc. so that may be a temporary solution. Pay rises for current health care professionals aren't going to resolve the current problems and isn't going to relieve the stress on individuals and families (might make life a bit easier in the short term though).
Don't know what the answer is, ever increasing demand needs to addressed somehow.
@v8ninety it's a rough estimate, fluctuates from what I read on the BMJ website. But as you can imagine there's a lot of people who twist the data to suit their agenda.
@dirkpitt74
£300m when you look at the issues around recruitment and retention it wouldn't go far at all. Our trust just spent £40m in the last year on infrastructure issues which were having an impact on staff, patients & service delivery.