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They should definitely get rid of those pesky rules for airlines and testing and training pilots every six months. After all the bloody planes fly themselves anyway, nothing ever goes wrong, and they just sit there and drink coffee and are definitely the reason tickets are so expensive.
People with historic entitlements to drive 7.5 tonne vehicles and tow heavy trailers are some of the most dangerous drivers on the road.
People with historic entitlements to drive 7.5 tonne vehicles and tow heavy trailers are some of the most dangerous drivers on the road.
Agreed.
Despite the fact that I benefit from the pre 97 license rules they should probably have a towing test for any trailer over say 500kg. It's not particularly easy to do, and it'd save a lot of stress and probably get more people doing it. A lot of people would use caravans if they didn't feel intimidated by the act of towing.
I wouldn't object to a trailer test for all, perhaps just for trailers over 750kg. I would have to do it - and I passed my test in 1977 and have towed many trailers. The limit on gross train weight push people to smaller cars was badly thought through and good riddance. Government dropping the test just to make more HGV tests available is typical of their illogical decisions resulting from failure to anticipate and plan.
Whilst it has been a massive pain for a lot of us to do a trailer test at work, (especially as we have to hire in a suitable trailer as ours don't meet test requirements) I think of all the staff with pre-1997 towing entitlements there is only one I am comfortable to travel with and know that they will have considered load balance and security.
It certainly helps to have the space to practice first, I spent a lot of time at a previous employer before getting my trailer licence, manouvering trailers off-road, to the extent that I used to do all the tricky moves for our pre-97 drivers. Eventually they got the work insurance to cover me on L plates with an older staff member on board and was doing ~1000 miles/week with a maxed out 18' trailer behind a Discovery.
As others have mentioned, see some shocking ball height/nose weight set ups and piss poor weighting and securing.
Yay, I get to tow the caravan now.
But in a very real and more accurate sense...
Oh crap, I have to tow the caravan now.
Did anyone hear Andrea Jenkyns talking about this on R4 on Saturday lunchtime?
Worth a listen for her reaction to being asked to assure people following a trailer on the roads now. Also just before when she gets the wrong end of the stick about their policy relaxation being a good idea.
From 18m - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000zfg1
I'm in two minds about this. I'm on a post-97 license and we have been discussing getting a caravan in a couple of years time. However, without the additional test we would be severely limited in choice of caravan to get a 5+ berth within gross train weight and even then we would have been so close to the limit (by the time you factor in the weight of people and belongings) that we'd have been frequenting the local weighbridge far too often.
But, with a bigger caravan we'd also need a bigger car (current towing limit 1200kg) and the costs start spiralling. I'd looked locally at B+E training for a 2 day course with test and it was around £700 - £1k. I wasn't against it though as it was effectively safety training. We tow a small camping trailer now but 300kg 3x4ft trailer isn't really comparable to a 1700kg shed being pulled behind me. Even with the new rules I'd definitely be up for a 1 day basic training course to give the safetey and confidence that I was doing it right.
I've towed for 3 years now, would need to change car to tow a bigger van and if that meant a course then fine.
I suppose this is the government getting rid of all that pesky red tape they keep going on about. Being a cyclist is bad enough without a load of half trained HGV and trailer tower's hitting the roads. Looks like they are just throwing more responsibility on employers and the police to deal with the outcomes.
Will be interesting to see if anyone jumps on this with the current crisis in haulage, there’s always someone out to make the money first.
Maybe freight canal (or is that canell) boats will make a comeback
Being a cyclist is bad enough without a load of half trained HGV and trailer tower’s hitting the roads.
This is causing a bit of concern with a few companies already from what I'm hearing. The main issue is the dropping of the reversing manoeuvre from the HGV test*, it's the most dangerous part of driving trucks as their size and weight means you can easily crush a small car without realising let alone a person. With the trailers the issue is that companies have to be able to show that they have assessed someone's ability to drive with a trailer if there is an accident to their insurers and they have hidden behind the test pass for post-97 licenses who have done the B+E test. Now they will have to assess new starters and do regular refresher training just to keep the insurers happy. That's all for the decent companies that care but the issue is with all the companies that don't or fudge things, very soon we will have lots of new commercial drivers who can't load or reverse their truck or trailer correctly.
* this bit particularly annoys me as I failed my first HGV test on reversing! If it hadn't been included I'd have passed 2 months earlier and be £600 better off.
How long before we get class C and minibus again
Never had class c just c1
The current rules are bit screwed up in fact that I can rive a 20t fixed wheelbase lorry but not a van with trailer. Only real difference is reversing. It's not big a deal. How to load and drive a heavy set up is all the same skill so not having to do another test just to show I can reverse round a corner will be welcomed by me.
I am not against a trailer test if you have no other heavy good license but seems just like a money grab for those already with heavy goods fixed license (n.b I am only reffing to towing with light good vehicles <3.5t)
I agree with the sentiment of quite a few others above, it seems a retrograde step. I did the B+E test three years ago so we could switch from campervan to caravan. I found the training very worthwhile and this is the loss really, the test was just a necessary evil. Introducing some sort of formal training akin to a CBT would be good.
From a personal perspective this is good as I could now share the driving with my wife. But on a wider level it makes me very nervous, caravans get bigger and heavier every year and modern cars get lighter and lighter (though this will be slowly negated by the switch to battery/hybrid vehicles). A look on sites has me thinking that a lot tow heaver than vehicle kerb weight already (I know 85% rule is only guidance). It doesn't take much to get unstable, caravan accidents are mostly very nasty.
I am a pre-97 license holder. I tow a 750kg (max) trailer behind my van when going on holiday. I am probably not typical as I do stick to the correct speed limits, and I know the rules about what I am not allowed to do (3rd + lane etc.). I also have nose-weight gauge and pay close attention when loading. It is geek paradise.
Occasionally I see some outstandingly poor loading and driver behaviour.
Have they actually removed the reversing procedure for C+E?
Or, is it simply that you can book a C+E without doing C first?...as the C+E repeats the road element of the C category.
When I did mine I was thankful my employer hired an artic, they could have sent me in a wagon and drag which would have resulted in a condition on my license preventing me from driving an artic.
even then we would have been so close to the limit (by the time you factor in the weight of people and belongings) that we’d have been frequenting the local weighbridge far too often.
It's not how much your train actually weighs, it's the max permissible weight. So the MTLPM of your caravan plus the gross vehicle weight of your car. Those are fixed and you don't have to weigh it all.
a 1700kg shed
That's a very heavy van, and there are loads around lighter than that. They seem to come in three weight classes - they're either around 1300kg, 1500kg or 1800kg. This corresponds (or used to) with the typical classes of car (e.g. Golf, Passat or Tiguan).
caravans get bigger and heavier every year
Actually I don't think this is the case now, although it was for a while - more lightweight options are appearing now for the exact reasons you say. Caravan manufacturers want you to buy a caravan and they don't want you put off by making you replace your car.
Bailey Phoenix 650+ 6 berth is 1410kg MTPLM, and their Discovery range is much lighter still but there's no 5 berth option. Similar story for Elddis too.
Have they actually removed the reversing procedure for C+E?
Yes. And coupling/uncoupling.
As the tanker driver I was talking to today put it, any idiot can drive a wagon. On the motorway. Put them on a Welsh road the width of the vehicle and its a different story.
If I understand it right, yes they've removed those elements from the main test, but you still have to complete them separately under the same conditions, just with a third party. Kind of like with the combined test, in principle that could give the same overall test standard, while making the actual process more streamlined.
Like, if every test needs access to a safe reversing, coupling/uncoupling area then that puts logistic stress on both the test and the reversing area and ties up the testers more. Separate them, and tests and testers have a bit more freedom of movement and timing. And the reversing/coupling tester doesn't need to be as highly qualified because he's only testing a smaller part, under controlled conditions.
Obviously I don't trust this government not to **** with it. I'm sure the Serco Reversing Test Station will be efficiently and correctly run and will deliver exactly what it's supposed to do on time and on budget.
Like, if every test needs access to a safe reversing, coupling/uncoupling area then that puts logistic stress on both the test and the reversing area and ties up the testers more. Separate them, and tests and testers have a bit more freedom of movement and timing.
In my recent experience of the testing timings it'll make sod-all difference. At Llantrissant testing station they do 3 tests at a time, whether that's a B+E, C1, Class 2 or 1 depends on what is booked. That's their capacity due to the number of testers. 2 will do the reversing manoeuvre first whilst the third heads out on the road first and does the reverse when they get back. The driving part lasts roughly 35-40 mins and the whole test is 1hr long. Removing the reverse element will save roughly 5-10 mins at most. This won't allow another test to be done that day per examiner, it'll just give a bit of leeway to allow for traffic etc as tests around 3pm take longer due to the school run. They run at 5 slots per day as there is a lot of forms to fill out between tests. There's also the issue of vehicles to use from the training schools, these need to be available and aren't earning money if they're not in use.
Put them on a Welsh road the width of the vehicle and its a different story.
Cotswold and Wiltshire lanes are just as scary, strangely the Magic Roundabout in Swindon is a doddle once you've figured it out.
The thing is, unless you already have a towbar on the car you're driving, there is a barrier to entry that will discourage quite a lot of casual idiots.
I passed pre-96 and spent quite a bit of my youth towing dinghies around. They often weigh a lot less than their trailers and present a few challenges of their own, but you definitely have to learn fast. I was lucky enough to have space to practice, a light right foot and good teachers, but formal lessons and a test probably would have been a good thing.
One thing: all that practice made me really conscious of the tip weight effect of a fully loaded four bike towbar rack on the back of our estate - it's a really uncomfortable feeling if you're used to towing. It makes a noticable difference to me as someone who's towed a few heavy things, but I'm not sure everyone would, and there's no licensing requirement for those IIRC.
People with historic entitlements to drive 7.5 tonne vehicles and tow heavy trailers are some of the most dangerous drivers on the road.
As a first time caravan tower yesterday I must confess to feeling like that guy... Still at least I knew I was the guy who was probably terrible at towing a caravan rather than thinking I wasn't.
New rules come into force on the 15th of November.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-towing-a-trailer-or-caravan-with-a-car-from-autumn-2021
So much for email alerts.
Just a heads upon this, the rules did not actually change on the 15th as it was rejected by parliament. It looks like the DVSA have been told to come back with revised proposals.
This hasn't been widely reported so there's a chance folk will be caught out by this. Shambolic.
As a first time caravan tower yesterday I must confess to feeling like that guy… Still at least I knew I was the guy who was probably terrible at towing a caravan rather than thinking I wasn’t.
I've been towing a caravan for 10 years + and I still feel like that every time I do. I find towing a caravan quite stressful as I'm aware of all the things that could go wrong, often-times not of my own doing.
Def worth noting. I had a guy booked for training and a test that fell in this period. I changed it to just training at the same cost sans the test fee, but I'm now letf with someone that cant tow and no way of getting them to the point where they can as I cant book a test. It's a joke!
Have to say I'm glad. People do not make rational choices unless mandated and you still see folk hopelsss at towing on their pre 97 licenses trying to manuver and tow loads that have no business on their car.
At least with some training they would have an incline of how dangerous what they are doing is.
Plus the number to trailers I've seen dancing down the road has dwindled in recent years in the 90s it's was fairly common to see the tail wagging the dog on at least once on a long journey
Whatever your view on whether the changes were a good idea, the implementation has been farcical. I have heard accounts of instructors winding up their businesses and selling trailers due to this change. The .GOV website has been reporting these changes as happening without any allusion to parliamentary approval.
the implementation has been farcical.
You expected anything less from the dvsa ?
Just a heads upon this, the rules did not actually change on the 15th as it was rejected by parliament. It looks like the DVSA have been told to come back with revised proposals.
Yep. The training school I used for my HGV are spitting feathers about it as they had gone as far as getting rid of their approved trailers due to storage costs and let their dedicated B+E trainer go. Add on the now lost tests from income and they're down a lot of money.
nd let their dedicated B+E trainer go.
Kind of sounds like they deserve it.
That is an ouch of a u-turn. And it will catch some folk out.
The system is pretty confusing anyway - and this made it much, much worse.
As an example - my D1+E (Minibus + Trailer) test was postponed as the examiner said that with grandfather rights I was ineligible to take a test for it. I pointed out that I *had* to take the test to be able to sit next to someone and supervise from here on on, and that a Tested D1/D1+E (and I think every other licence category) appears as a different code on your driving license, indicating this. Police know this as my fellow test taker was retired traffic officer and someone my company employed once a year alongside me to train our new drivers in minibus and minibus+trailer. The examiner spent the whole hour on phone to DVLA - and refused to test me.
I had to return the next week after much pleading on phone, for the examiner to state it was a learning for him that this could happen, and he had even sent the correct DVLA documents/information through to DVLA to say I was correct and DVLA were wrong!
Another embarassing U-Turn from this bunch of clueless, self serving roasters.
@dickydutch Agreed it is embarrassing. But sadly this bunch of Cons seem incapable of being embarrassed. Boris has broken Britain.
But how can they reverse the rules now, surely this is just* going to be a delay whilst parliament does a bit of posturing and arguing. The trainers have wrapped up businesses/sold trailers/let people go/changed business models delete as appropriate.
There would, in a lot of cases, be nothing to u-turn back to.
*I say ‘just’ nothing would surprise me.
The mess we’ve got now is a shit show. People can’t tow sizeable stuff legally, but as of now there’s no trainers/businesses and the actual test has been scraped. But no frigging plan. The way the rules where done was crap*, but this is a disaster.
*I can tow my trailer that’s old and unplated behind my car loaded up, but the same trailer empty behind my van and I’m towing unlicensed. Go figure.
I’ve been towing a caravan for 10 years + and I still feel like that every time I do. I find towing a caravan quite stressful as I’m aware of all the things that could go wrong, often-times not of my own doing.
I've always thought if you had to have a Las Vegas Drive-Thru wedding annulled then a Drive-Thru divorce parlours would only let you in if you in if you were towing a caravan. The line between fun'n'freedom and stress-rage seems to be gossamer thin.