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Too many contradications He doesn’t like titles but accepted a peerage. He was director of public prosections and yet wants to represent the unions politically
I think he dislikes people calling him ‘Sir’ or ‘Director’ when he was in that role as it was at odds with him doing the best job he could.
I don’t know why being a former Director of Public Prosecutions means he unsuitable to represent union members?
They’re going to elect Ian Lavery, aren’t they?
And the nation will ring to the sound of champagne corks popping in every Tory constituency office in the country as they cheer in their new one-party state and permanent unopposed future in government with majorities that would make Robert Mugabe or Vladimir Putin blush
I don’t know why being a former Director of Public Prosecutions means he unsuitable to represent union members?
In that role he was at the heart of the authoritarian institution, the status quo. A system of injustice which favours the rich and powerful and holds the poor in contempt. In his period in office the rich tax evaders went unchallenged as he applied the corrupt laws that rich and powerful had devised to allow the morally unacceptable to be somehow legal. No true socialist can accept being a part of a system so at odds with socialist values. He shouldn't have been DPP he should have been campaigning for radical change of the legal system.
Being even vaguely left wing or socialist means wanting change at the very heart of the system of justice and government to make the system fair. Under Starmer petty crime was severly punished (rahter than a system based on rehabilitation) whist the rich and powerful rode roughshod the legal loopholes to ever greater wealth and power.
He was the figure head of a system used to dismantle union power, to impose injustice on humble citizens and minorities in his own country. having had the cheek to mess in other countires affairs whithout first having a long hard look at what is happening in his own back yard. He was and is part of the problem, not the solution.
As for opposing Brexit and then accepting the job of shadow Brexit bod, he was pathetic in the role, so pathetic that no-one voting Labour really had a clue whether they were voting for a Lexit/red Brexit or the "promise" of a second referendum, maybe.
He's an expert with his lawyer speak fence sitting impotence going through the motions of doing the right thing whilst propping up the evil types really running a rotten to the core system of governance.
Ineffectual institutionalised lawyer ***** IMHO.
Give me some passion not a besuited lawyer.
Edit: besuited mawyers can be passionate, it's just that whenever I see Starmer he isn't. He's not an Obama.
In that role he was at the heart of the authoritarian institution, the status quo. A system of injustice which favours the rich and powerful and holds the poor in contempt.
Should have run for the Tory leadership really. Either way, the kind of person we’ll vote in.
Never underestimate the desire for idealogical purity above all else (particularly pragmatism or economic credibility) of the Momentum/PFJ/common room lot
90% of the membership is not Momentum. Corbyn was not elected because of Momentum.
So who's your favoured Progressbot this time? And will you actually bother to join so you can cast your vote?
outofbreath
Member
So, just to be clear, you’re claiming you have never argued against PR on STW forums?
Absolutely. I've been arguing for PR since before this forum existed.
Rone - brother/comrade - you’ll be pleased to hear I’ve rejoined the flock already so that I can vote against whichever sock-puppet the beardy messia anoints aa his successor to wander off in to the political desert
I’d love Jess Phillips personally (that’s your cue for a Jess Phillips/Blairite/Red Tory tirade) but I’ll vote for anyone who isn’t some Corbynite muppet. Because if we get another one of those useless placard-wavers then the Labour Party is over. Finished!
Surely even the true believers in the common room can see that by now. Actually.... maybe not. Ideological is all important after all. No matter how badly if continues to fail
And then it’s permanent Tory rule
I don’t fancy that much. Do you?
Saw lots of abuse on Twitter yesterday from the die hard Corbyn fans blaming Kier Starmer for the election loss. It was all down to him being a leaver that caused everyone to vote for BJ instead of JC and of course anyone who supports him for the leadership is a Blairite. At some stage these people have to realise that the leader has to appeal to a slightly wider audience than just some of the Labour Party members, or are they content to be the opposition for ever? I'm a member of the party and I think having Rebecca Long Bailey or Ian Lavery would probably be the final nail in the coffin for me.
I don't really care what Starmer got up to as long as the policies stay Land he is popular with the masses. Guessing the policies will stay roughly the same (as they are democratic to a point) so just the question over popularity which we will have to find out if he is the appointed leader.
Rone – brother/comrade – you’ll be pleased to hear I’ve rejoined the flock already so that I can vote against whichever sock-puppet the beardy messia anoints aa his successor to wander off in to the political desert
Ah, so entryism is ok now. Gotcha.
He’s the wrong man for the job unless you want two Tory parties to choose between.
So what you're saying is he might get Labour elected in the current climate?
Entryism? I thought I was joining ‘The Resistance’?
Is that not right then? Have I got the wrong end of the stick, comrade?
And then it’s permanent Tory rule
It's been Tory dominated in this country since 1945, I count 29 years of Labour and 74 years of Tory. With the merest sniff of a LibDem minister or two during the coalition. Popular voter opinion is broadly centre-right, apparently.
The country doesn't GAS about fixing the electoral system, 2011 ref said so. I can't see, much as I'd like, a third and fourth viable parties emerging any time soon. Which is a shame. I would vastly prefer coalitions to the current shower of right wing turds.
It’s been Tory dominated in this country since 1945, I count 29 years of Labour and 74 years of Tory.
Yep, and the last 40 years have been Tory or moderate Tory (Blair) so it is a measure of what the country wants (or what they have been convinced into thinking what they want). Can't really see that changing any time soon. If you want to live in a country with more of a leaning towards socialism then Scotland (post independence) would be the answer I guess.
Is that not right then? Have I got the wrong end of the stick, comrade?
You're nothing if not consistent.
There's been plenty of complaint on this esteemed forum about people joining the Labour party only so they could vote for a specific candidate as leader. One or two posters may even have speculated about their maturity and intelligence.
I'm sure that's not something you'd do.
It’s pretty sad to think that Socialists see Social Democrats as “Tory-Lite” but I guess it’s all you can expect from ‘them and us’ thinkers, I think they’re going to have to get used to the idea again, Shirley even the Unions have worked out what’s electable and what’s not.
Sometimes I wonder if some of the hardcore as just that type who likes to piss and moan about the evils of the world without doing anything about it.
Do we get to dress up?
I think the country is left of center, debate any individual issue and you will get a progressive left wing consensus on most. It is only in election time when the propaganda machines crank up to full steam and pedal fear, lies and division that attitudes are driven rightwards.
Shirley even the Unions have worked out what’s electable and what’s not.
Have a listen to Len McClusky and see if you hear a man whos worked much out in the last 40 years*
* other than how to get one of his minions to book his usual table at the Ivy
Rone – brother/comrade – you’ll be pleased to hear I’ve rejoined the flock already so that I can vote against whichever sock-puppet the beardy messia anoints aa his successor to wander off in to the political desert
I’d love Jess Phillips personally (that’s your cue for a Jess Phillips/Blairite/Red Tory tirade) but I’ll vote for anyone who isn’t some Corbynite muppet. Because if we get another one of those useless placard-wavers then the Labour Party is over. Finished!
Surely even the true believers in the common room can see that by now. Actually…. maybe not. Ideological is all important after all. No matter how badly if continues to fail
And then it’s permanent Tory rule
I don’t fancy that much. Do you?
Good for you.
But it isn't going to come down to who we favour - it will come down to who can defend themselves against the press, and convince the electorate that they are a battle hardened leader with the looks of it (amongst other things.)
No I don't see an ideological fail - I see a strong establishment/media/brexit contortion of right wing bullshit peddled day after day against the interests of a large portion of folk that voted for it. Conundrum.
To correct this we need the swing strongly in the other direction. IMHO.
18 years of Tory rule and fatigue it took Tone to get in. We're only just at the half-way mark.
Calling Corbyn out with those sorts of insults doesn't do you argument any favours.
I genuinely don't think Jess P (without insults) is the correct person to push Labour forward. I think she's too self-centered and doesn't really offer anything in the face of Neolibralism that would make for a better country. The only thing she's got going is a good mouth.
I don't have any answers these days just a strong push against a stagnating and faltering market economy that clearly works for the few and is surviving on vapour. (See the FTSE being bouyant on a pretty poor year for growth - doesn't add up does it?)
You will not fix that with centrism - even if the electorate vote for it.
Yep, and the last 40 years have been Tory or moderate Tory (Blair) so it is a measure of what the country wants (or what they have been convinced into thinking what they want). Can’t really see that changing any time soon. If you want to live in a country with more of a leaning towards socialism then Scotland (post independence) would be the answer I guess.
I agree with that.
The establishment is just too entrenched.
Don't rule out a collapse of something or other though. Plenty of catalysts for change - however the right is better poised to take advantage of things unfortunately.
And then it’s permanent Tory rule
Permanent Tory rule or permanent right-wing rule?
"moderate Tory?"
Blair delivered some of the most significant social reforms of the past 50 years. A left of centre, but still centre Labour government can deliver seismic shifts in policy and life in this country.
But with this kind of stupid language and all your "comrade" this and nonsense Labour in-fighting, you're never going to get into power anyway so it's moot. Comrade.
What you want is some form of middle ground. There must be a third way. A mix of entrepreneurialism versus social conscience. A different Labour that will entice the more community minded Tory voters over. A different Labour, a better Labour. A new Labour.
Things, quite truly, can only get better.
*sits and awaits cries of BUT, BUT....IRAQ!!!!!!!
You're not allowed to give Tony Blair any credit for anything. The pinaccle of any true Labour politicians achievements is how many times they voted against Blair, from the comfort of the back-benches during a career who's highlights amounted to the square root of **** all
What the labour party needs is someone like this...
I doubt any of the expected candidates have either the open-mindedness, ideological zeal and recklessness/bravery to have someone beside them challenging them to think differently. It's pretty ironic that when the tories are looking at ripping up the hymn sheet, the response of labour centrists is to dust off 20 year old prayer books. It's pretty pathetic.
*sits and awaits cries of BUT, BUT….IRAQ!!!!!!!
Seen the news this morning?
You’re not allowed to give Tony Blair any credit for anything.
I give him credit for a lot of things and would pay money to have him in power now over any Tory government. However, that does not mean he is my ideal choice and it does not mean a lot of what he did wouldn't have also been done by a moderate Tory. The problem with moderate Tories is that they still do a lot of shit too (tuition fees, PFI).
See I didn't even mention the war.
You’re not allowed to give Tony Blair any credit for anything.
I voted for him twice. Better than the Tories certainly.
But we don't need someone like him now. Things have moved on.
Maybe equally you could recognise following his template now in different more complex times (post 2008) would not be the answer?
Maybe you could recognise the complexity of the situation doesn't just come down to a beard?
I really don't know why Iraq is held up by the centrists' supporters club as something that should be papered over.
It changed the world forever and certainly destabilised everything.
We can't really ignore it so easily.
I voted for him twice. Better than the Tories certainty.
But we don’t need someone like him now. Things have moved on.
This is what I don't understand about the Blairites: why they assume that reverting to a 23 year-old strategy will bring success. You might as well argue that Labour should follow the strategies of Wilson or Attlee.
You might as well argue that Labour should follow the strategies of Wilson or Attlee.
They just did that. None of the current candidates have a clue to be honest. Clive Lewis is the only one who seems to have understood the real problem. RLB seems to be tacking towards blue labour racism, Starmer trying to pretend he's a radical despite his previous job of being an establishment stooge, Thonberry the representative of the outraged suburban chattering classes, and Phillips with her faux 'I'm a bit of a chav' content free ranting (remind you of anyone?). I hope Nandy comes up with something a bit more original.
Some of you make me wish I hadn’t voted Labour at both of the last two general elections… perhaps Labour need to complete their transformation into a protest movement, rather than being a potential government, and we should just accept that England is now Tory… with a few crumbs from the Labour ideas factory moving Conservative policy a smidge… you know, winning the occasional argument but never being in power.
They just did that.
They really didn't. In some fundamental ways, their 2019 manifesto was well to the right of 1950s/60s conservative policy.
This isn't an argument for reverting to the policies of those leaders - simply that they and Blair should be viewed in the same way, as leaders who were successful in bygone eras.
It's a very complex situation isn't it?
So many layers. I'm happy to sit back for the time being and see how it pans out and be open to what happens.
The enemy aren't the Labour MPs (maybe apart from ex-s Ian Austin / John Mann) - it's the establishment.
Labour just need to package up the ideology and personality and go for it.
They're going to get torn apart whatever. They just need the courage of their convictions.
and we should just accept that England is now Tory… with a few crumbs from the Labour ideas factory.
I think that's just looking at things from a small time-frame.
So much could happen which changes everything in the next 10 years or so.
Remember 18 years of Tory rule is what it took before, unfortunately.
The boundary thing is of real concern though.
and we should just accept that England is now Tory
The centrist's solution of watering down labour principles and policy and putting a nice smiley (preferably white upper-middle class) face in a shiny suit does exactly that.
It will be very interesting to see how Bernie Sanders pans out.
He's not had the tabloid hammering the same as Corbyn.
And trust me his economic model is likely to be even more radical than Corbyn's.
It’s a very complex situation isn’t it?
So many layers. I’m happy to sit back for the time being and see how it pans out and be open to what happens.
The enemy aren’t the Labour MPs (maybe apart from ex-s Ian Austin / John Mann) – it’s the establishment.
Then you are an ideologue who is happy to see people suffer for your political religion.
People like you and Corbyn should never come close to power.
And trust me his economic model is likely to be even more radical than Corbyn’s.
Sanders is about as left wing as Boris Johnson. The American left is in no way comparable to our own.
People like you and Corbyn should never come close to power.
Glad you can form that opinion from a few bitesize chunks on a forum.
Bless you.
I see that as an endorsement of a wonky moral compass in your satchel.
Sanders is about as left wing as Boris Johnson. The American left is in no way comparable to our own.
Flesh out please?
Bernie is on Twitter this morning pushing hard against an escalation with Iran.
That's a start isn't it?
In other ‘you can’t win elections from the centre ground’ news, I see the Tory’s are setting about nationalising Northern Rail
Expect Boris to do a bit of pushing and shoving for the next 6 months.
The man knows at least you've got to spend into the economy from the government purse to make it grow.
How long he keeps it up for... Or what his end-game is who knows...
Need to remember who is in charge...
From Doms blog
c) a new government with a significant majority and little need to worry about short-term unpopularity while trying to make rapid progress with long-term problems.
Depends what your view of what the long term problems is, not kikely to align with most folks expectations? Dom has talked before about sacrificing a generation....
The centrist’s solution of watering down labour principles and policy and putting a nice smiley (preferably white upper-middle class) face in a shiny suit does exactly that.
I have significant concerns about Starmer's ability to reach beyond his natural constituency (which seems to dominate on STW) but let's at least hear what he has to say...
Dom has talked before about sacrificing a generation….
Well, then he has a surprisingly amount in common with many of those* he won the battle of wits with last year, doesn’t he.
[*Milne&Murray&Co]