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This thing with party membership electing party leaders is killing democracy.
Democracy is this thing where we can just about drag 2/3 of the electorate out to vote every four or five years, (with local elections for those explicitly concerned with local issues). Before, when elected MP's selected their party leaders, the result reflected the whole of the electorate as reflected in a general election result. Creating a special layer of democracy for only the few who are party members creates elites, the same can be said for the European parliament, where a tiny minority turn out to vote, those who are 'cleverer', 'more informed' and 'special' than the majority. (It also enables wronguns like Farage to have undue influence where they didn't have a hope of getting a seat in a general election)
This minority effect is what has lead us to see swings to the far right and far left with the two major parties. It's the biggest problem facing the Labour party right now. Appointing Ed Miliband, the man who introduced this mechanism to conduct an enquiry into what went wrong is beyond absurd.
What went wrong Ed?.....You did.
The rest of us will just be left with permanent Tory rule
It is what the country wants (via the current voting method) I have been interested in politics since 1979 when I was 11. My whole life has been living in a Tory country, the Blair years were better but he did a whole lot of stuff that could have come from Major or Cameron.
I think we just need to accept that it is a Tory country which was pretty much cemented during Thatcher years where the "I'm alright jack" state of mind ruled and has remained.
The Labour party have to appeal to that person so will need to offer what the Tories do and appear to throw away some of it's dreams and ideals to get into power and then smuggle them in when in power
To do that they need a Leader whose only goal is to win at any cost.
Tom Watson claims he left parliament because of the brutality and hostility he experienced within the labour party
And now he's training to be a fitness instructor. What a career change! He must be heartily sick of politics.
The left is in retreat across the whole world, it's not just UK politics
binners in reactionary rant shocker. I can never decide if it’s amusing or tedious. The Derek Hatton of the blairites.
The rest of us will just be left with permanent Tory rule
It is what the country wants
It isn't. The country wants a workable alternative to the Tories.
From which direction could it come?
It isn’t. The country wants a workable alternative to the Tories.
Why does the alternative have to be workable when the tory governments clearly aren't?
Most of the people in the country haven't got a ****ing clue what they want but the tories/media are good at convincing them
Binners - with passionate people like you rooting for the Labour party I'm honestly amazed* they never did better in the election.
The denial is strong with this one. Labour only became un-electable when they voted the wrong milliband in as leader
Ed wasn't in charge in 2010.
Besides, St David was a Blairite and the press would have used that against him in 2015, why you think otherwise is beyond me.
Interesting that you point that out though, yes, the PLP DID vote for the wrong person as they had plenty of times before and yet two times the membership got a say and it was toys out prams.
*I'm not.
Happy new year comrades!!!! 😂
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1211941180587544581?s=21
How’s it feel to be ‘The Resistance’? It all sounds very exciting and revolutionary, doesn’t it? Life on ‘The Front Line’.
It’ll all look great on T-Shirt slogans too! Maybe a nice red one, paired with some ironic US desert camo combat trousers, like the ones they wore in Iraq?
To the barricades, brothers and sisters! Break out the AK-47’s Internet petitions!
You couldn’t make it up! Though I dearly wish somebody had 🙄
Binners, are you still a party member?
Are you involved with your local branch, trying to make a difference?
I ask because you are a prolific poster on threads involving the labour party - usually offering criticisms with a side order of sneering.
Anyone can pay a few £/month but, if that's the limit of their activism, nothing is going to change.
Your posts increasingly suggest someone standing outside shouting at the moon; lots of noise but pointless.
Joined the party specifically to vote against Corbyn (a lot of us knew how unfit for leadership he was and how this would end up), left in despair (like so many non-corbynites), now re-joined to vote against whichever unelectable, hopeless clown that Magic Grandad, Len and Seamas favour anointing.
As for involvement- I’ve done quite a bit of design work over the years for the local Labour Party, both for my former Labour MP (who just lost his seat by 100 votes - we’ve now got a Tory) election campaigns, Andy Burnhams mayoral campaign and for the local labour councillors in their campaigns
But I don’t sign enough internet petitions, or have enough interest in Venezuelan politics to be truly classed as one of ‘The Resistance’.
Once Corbz has gone you'll be ok though right bins? It was Corbz that was the problem more than his policies right?
I assume you voted against him in the first leadership contest because of him not the policies (which as i remember were good at the time, not the OTT wish list from this election).
In the second leadership contest Owen Smith promised to keep same policies as they were popular.
I have absolutely zero optimism when it comes to the future of the Labour Party. I see Ian Lavery is being mentioned. Seriously... Ian ****ing Lavery! The man who was responsible for a ‘magic money tree wish-list’ election manifesto that delivered a thumping great Tory majority. A 1970’s throwback that makes Len McClusky look like David Beckham
Then I look at the people running the party and making the decisions and thought.... of course that’s what they’ll do. They’ll stitch it up ‘elect’ another dinosaur like Ian Lavery to lead them further out onto the electoral wilderness. In fact I’m now going to stick a tenner on them doing just that!
Because listening to Corbyn and those around him since the election, they’ve learnt absolutely nothing other than, apparently they ‘won the argument’
You ‘won the argument’? Really?!
I’d hate to see what losing one looks like 😳
In which case the Labour Party is truly finished as anything other than a fringe protest group. Which I’m sure a lot of them are quite happy with, as that’s their comfort zone and the limit of both their ambition and their capability.
Sixth form placard-wavers and trade-union tinpot emperors
Your posts increasingly suggest someone standing outside shouting at the moon; lots of noise but pointless.
But don't forget the hilarious images, lots of noise and hilarious images.
The rest of us will just be left with permanent Tory rule
It is what the country wants
This times a gazillion.
The public have made it clear that they are happiest to recreate Upstairs Downstairs, tugging thir forelocks when the Eton boys come to town abd burying their children died of consumption. So let 'em have it.
Er... no. Only 43% of 'The Public' (or at least the 2/3 of the electorate who bothered to vote) endorsed the mendacious self-serving narcissist. The big problem we have is our 'democratic' system that is about to be further rigged in the Tory's favour. (I note that some in the Labour party are now pushing PR; shame they didn't do that in 2008.)
The public have made it clear that they are happiest to recreate Upstairs Downstairs, tugging thir forelocks when the Eton boys come to town abd burying their children died of consumption.
Almost nobody was "happy" to vote Tory in the last two elections. Boris's approval ratings were as bad as Mays. People just chose the lesser of two evils:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/23/tory-boris-johnson-labour
Any Labour leadership since and including Kinnock would have won comfortably in 2017 and 2019 against a lame duck Tory party on it's knees.
The Tory's weren't popular, Momentum/Corbyn are un-electable and the Manifesto was economically illiterate nonsense. People reluctantly voted Tory or voted for parties like the Lib Dems and SNP knowing that would likely stop a Labour win.
So let ’em have it.
You're happy with that, momentum are happy with that. A lot of people aren't.
(I note that some in the Labour party are now pushing PR; shame they didn’t do that in 2008.)
If we adopt PR then Momentum-esqe ideological purity will have to be sacrificed in compromises. If Momentum are going to sacrifice ideological purity anyway why not just hand the party back to the centrists right now and let Labour win majorities under FPTP?
Zero chance of PR under any government which has won a decent majority under FPTP. For the last 10 years the main advantage of FPTP (majority governments) had evaporated and nobody said a word about PR, very hard to make the case now FPTP has just produced a majority government. Can't see the SNP buying it either. PR would cost them 20 seats.
I'd have thought another 10 years in the future of no majority or tiny majority would make PR look very tempting but I thought that since 2015 when it became clear majorities had become difficult to achieve and there wasn't a peep about it.
I think it is more that they are happy with what they are told to be happy with, which is sort of the same thing.
The big problem we have is our ‘democratic’ system that is about to be further rigged in the Tory’s favour.
How?
Boundary review? Are the civil servants doing it corrupt?
Voter ID? You need it to vote at your CLP for internal Labour party issues
Any other way?
He’s back, with the same talking points!
Civil servants do what they are briefed to do… if that is to “equalise” the population size of constituencies, and/or to reduce the number of them… all previous attempts to do so have been analysed as to bake in further advantage to the Conservative party under FPTP.
Voter ID isn’t needed for a General Election, as in person voter fraud is not an issue in Scotland, England and Wales, and would introduce an unnecessary extra step to be able to vote for those who don’t drive or travel abroad. Why introduce it? A five minute analysis about how it has been used in the USA, by people with strong links to those now running the Conservative Party, might offer up some ideas. Go do so.
He’s back, with the same talking points!
Yep, same allegations that the system is being rigged
all previous attempts to do so have been analysed as to bake in further advantage to the Conservative party under FPTP.
References? I would suggest that any pre December 2019 analysis might well be overtaken by events.
What are your alternative proposals for evening up constituency sizes?
, as in person voter fraud is not an issue in Scotland, England and Wales,
The implication is that in person voter fraud is an issue in CLPs in England, Scotland, and Wales. Otherwise why the requirement to have voter ID?
As for electoral fraud, there are clearly better techniques https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tower-hamlets-to-tackle-voterigging-with-photographic-entry-system-a4058746.html
I'm sad to see that Richard Burgon has decided to not go for the top job, his announcement as a candidate for deputy leader belies his obvious talent. #BackBurgon
The question is will be declare a preference for the new leader?
https://labourlist.org/2019/12/richard-burgon-announces-deputy-leadership-bid/
big_n_daft
Member
The implication is that in person voter fraud is an issue in CLPs in England, Scotland, and Wales. Otherwise why the requirement to have voter ID?
You know perfectly well what a straw man that is- of course you have to prove membership before voting in a members-only election. It's the same for CAMRA.
You know perfectly well what a straw man that is- of course you have to prove membership before voting in a members-only election. It’s the same for CAMRA.
It goes beyond having a membership card, they require additional photo ID
https://order-order.com/2019/10/25/labour-voter-id-hypocrisy/
Don't think CAMRA go that far....
big_n_daft
Member
It goes beyond having a membership card, they require additional photo ID
And? Carrying a membership card is proof that you have a membership card.
Comparing how you operate a small closed membership organisation to a national election with a regulated electoral roll is ridiculous. and you know that.
Comparing how you operate a small closed membership organisation to a national election with a regulated electoral roll is ridiculous.
If it's important to make sure the voting within a party is kosher it must be equally or more important to ensure voting in an election is.
Most countries require ID, seems to be best practice worldwide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws
Outofbteath nothing is perfect so in these cases we have to pick the route of greater fairness.
In the case of ID for GEs - there is no evidence of any voter fraud of any significance whatsoever at polling stations, but there is a real issue for people turning out to vote. Putting another barrier to voting which will disproportionately affect particular demographics in response to a virtual non-problem would seem to fail the route of most fairness test.
Also this is a bit of a deviation for this thread
Comparing how you operate a small closed membership organisation to a national election with a regulated electoral roll is ridiculous. and you know that.
Small? I thought there were 500,000 members?
There will be good reasons for the requirements, I imagine the conservatives will have to do the same soon if they don't already.
Bearing in mind that to vote you just need the name address and the nearest polling station to be able to vote. Labour CLP require a membership card and photo ID/utility bill with matching address.
Which is why people are questioning the hyperbole.
I agree in person fraud is probably very low, postal votes are easier for that, and obviously there are shenanigans at the count etc.
Edit - off topic post -
There is no opportunity for shenanigans at a GE or LE count.
Tower Hamlets appear to disagree
Anyway back on topic.
Anyone think a Starmer leader, Burgon deputy leader has a Father Ted/Dougal or Blackadder/ Baldrick vibe to it?
More detail on the polling...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/01/poll-of-labour-members-suggests-keir-starmer-is-first-choice
K. Starmer: 31%
R. Long Bailey: 20%
J. Phillips: 11%
Y. Cooper: 7%
C. Lewis: 7%
E. Thornberry: 6%
L. Nandy: 5%
Encouraging. On the face of it the Labour party could sort itself out as quickly as it broke itself.
As I understand it the unions like to nominatate the candidate they think will win so topping the polls makes nomination much easier.
Amusing that the conclusion of the membership is "Binners was right all along.". 🙂 (On the basis of that poll.)
Mind you, reversing Momentum's rule changes might be tricky or impossible.
Whoever they pick as leader they need to have a claus to reassess within 12 months to see if that leader is actually popular with the masses. If they are not they pick another leader and give them a go for 12 months.
Don't repeat the mistake that was made with Corbyn. While he was doing okay for the first year or so it was clear he was not doing okay after losing the May election. Most people knew that (including himself I would imagine) but he stayed in post anyway.
If for example Starmer hasn't appealed to people within 12 months then no point going on for another 3 or 4 years and losing another election for Labour.
My view is that Starmer is not the right person.
If for example Starmer hasn’t appealed to people within 12 months then no point going on for another 3 or 4 years and losing another election for Labour.
The only electoral test will be the local elections, So he gets one chance?
My view is that Starmer is not the right person.
None of the candidates are without their issues, it's arguably a "least worst" choice based on your preferred direction for labour, i.e. continuity Corbyn or not
While he was doing okay for the first year or so
😀
He was a total disaster from the first fortnight - especially in the first fortnight! It was obvious he'd be a disaster from before he even took over, that's why people who wanted to sabotage Labour were joining to vote for him.
Don't agree. He brought the party back to the direction it should be taking and was actually popular for a while. That clearly waned and at that point he should have pass it over to another leader.
The only electoral test will be the local elections, So he gets one chance?
No. Use polling, focus groups, media success or failure etc,. continually over the 12 months. Treat it like something you actually want to win rather than just seeing what happens in a few years time.
None of the candidates are without their issues, it’s arguably a “least worst” choice based on your preferred direction for labour, i.e. continuity Corbyn or not
It is not about issues, it is about who would be popular with the idiots who get to vote. I personally would choose Starmer but I realise to most of the voters he is another faceless politician.
Mind you, reversing Momentum’s rule changes might be tricky or impossible.
Momentum don't have rule.
No. Use polling, focus groups, media success or failure etc,. continually over the 12 months. Treat it like something you actually want to win rather than just seeing what happens in a few years time.
Who makes the decision he has done enough?
Do conference, the NEC or other policy making bodies take any responsibility?
He brought the party back to the direction it should be taking and was actually popular for a while.
Continuity Corbyn then
I personally would choose Starmer but I realise to most of the voters he is another faceless politician.
I don't agree. He's a 'Sir' and his past employment plays right in to what the public seem to want. I need to see a bit more of him to be convinced but his past plays right in to what the public subconsciously want in a way Corbyn never could. In the same way I don't think a black or female candidate would stand a chance unless they were so central they may as well be Tory.
It is not about issues, it is about who would be popular with the idiots who get to vote.
You are Emily Thornberry and I claim my £5
Sorry that was allegedly "stupid", subject to the resolution of the court proceedings