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There were once good reasons to introduce ID checks for NI voting (which many over there are arguing could be lifted now). The same is not true for the mainland… there is a very real suspicion that putting extra steps in to the voting process for some (those who don’t drive or travel abroad) is being proposed for party political reasons.
there is a very real suspicion that putting extra steps in to the voting process for some (those who don’t drive or travel abroad) is being proposed for party political reasons.
There may be some who think it is a big opportunity to gain advantage. I can't see it, it's hard enough to get people to the polling station. and if political parties need it for internal votes then the arguments against are essentially broken. The trials were inconclusive and there will be some people turned away as we adapt in any changes.
Most people don't understand that all you need is to say a name and address, on the the electoral roll at the right polling station to vote.
Something to read for the cynics. Merry xmas. 🙂
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/24/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-first-year-congress
Why for the cynics. She has been great from day one but so what, she is not in the UK Labour party is she. Can you see anyone who is even 25% of what she is?
but so what
Disappointed. I was something like this from OOB or someone like that. The point is that something else beyond the cynical business as usual defeatism is possible. If someone like AOC can make a difference in the US, then it can happen here too.
Pretty spot on analysis of Corbynism by Andrew Rawnsley
Labour has no hope of rebuilding unless it breaks the cold grip of the hard left
Corbynism unleashed a factional zealotry that preferred to hunt down internal heretics who deviated from the true faith and brand them as “Tories” rather than try to win converts amongst the electorate. Corbynism preferred to be a glorified protest movement complacently luxuriating in a narcissistic conceit of its own moral superiority rather than do the hard and honest thinking required to secure office. Corbynism produced a fantasy programme that voters found literally incredible.
Pretty spot on analysis of Corbynism by Andrew Rawnsley
Rawnsley is as much one of the establishment dinosaurs as Hattersley, McCluskey, Hutton, Blair and the rest of them. They talk about late 20th century politics whilst everyone who is under 40 (and many of us under 50) have already moved on to worrying about climate change, sustainable growth economics and new models of democracy. If they think Corbyn/McDonnel were unacceptably radical then they're going to get a shock when the teenagers of today start making their mark.
Disappointed. I was something like this from OOB or someone like that. The point is that something else beyond the cynical business as usual defeatism is possible. If someone like AOC can make a difference in the US, then it can happen here too.
I didn't say it couldn't happen here, what I am saying is that she is exceptional. I have never seen anyone who I would call exceptional in the current Labour party. Yes there could be a new MP as good as she is but that is a bit of a stretch isn't it.
If they think Corbyn/McDonnel were unacceptably radical then they’re going to get a shock when the teenagers of today start making their mark.
So will I. From what I have seen so far the teenagers of today are not even trying. What did the 18-30 group do in the last election?
From what I have seen so far the teenagers of today are not even trying.
Well then you're not looking. The Greta Thunberg effect is real. My 15 year old daughter is much more politically aware than I was at that age, and she's way more radical than I am now. Same goes for most of her mates. They practice what they preach too (mostly, but no one's perfect), they're all vegan, anti-consumerist, and do not like it when they're dragged on a plane by their parents to go on holiday. If they hold on to all that, and I really think they will, then politics in the not too distant future is going to look very different to what it is today.
If they think Corbyn/McDonnel were unacceptably radical then they’re going to get a shock when the teenagers of today start making their mark.
Isn't the problem / fallacy here that as people age they tend to become less radical / more conservative, so simply expecting radicalised teenagers to become equally radical as adults in, say, their 30s and 40s isn't necessarily valid. I'm not saying they're wrong, just that the history of youthful idealism suggests that it doesn't always translate going forward.
ps: I hope this isn't the case or the world is screwed 🙁
Isn’t the problem / fallacy here that as people age they tend to become less radical / more conservative
Some of us went the other way 😉
Seriously though, I wouldn't describe it as people becoming less radical, but more cynical the longer they see no positive change. You have to be, because otherwise you'd go a bit crazy (which I've seen a number of times in activist circles). What I'm seeing among the young though is not just youthful idealism, but huge anger at the failure of the older generation to solve problems that we can all see. It's the anger, and the realisation that the older generation do not necessarily know best that will change things, not the airy-fairy idealism.
Daz... seriously mate, you need to see this country for what it is. My 15 year old is totally politically switched on, well up on climate change and environmental issues.
Is she representative of the vast majority of young people? Of course she’s bloody not! That’s just delusional middle class wishful thinking
Look at the voting record of the under 30’s. It’s dire! So if you think a new generation of Greta Thunbergs are going to usher in some socialist revolution then you need your bumps feeling!
Just ask any of the people who actually do go out and vote and who just delivered Boris a whacking great majority to pursue a far right agenda, and in the process hoofed the socialist revolutionaries firmly in the slats.
But I’m sure that sort of ‘we need to be more radical’ cobblers is presently occupying the discussion by the clueless bunch of clowns presently ‘running’ the Labour Party as they set themselves up to lose the next election even more catastrophically
That’s just delusional middle class wishful thinking
+1
A basic appraisal of the litter from fast food outlets is the guide, if there was a "Thunberg" effect it would have declined markedly.
A basic appraisal of the litter from fast food outlets is the guide
And here we go with the cynicism of 'if they cared that much they wouldn't do x or y'. The point is that compared to 20 or 30 years ago, more kids are politicised now than they were then. A lot more. And when they start climbing the ladder into positions of power, the outcomes of that will be very different to what they are now.
But I’m sure that sort of ‘we need to be more radical’ cobblers
What's 'radical' or 'cobblers' about tackling climate change, consuming less, and moving to an economic system which accounts for finite natural resources? This is my point, many kids today, and many adults, don't see that as radical at all, just plain common sense.
Who are the realists here? Those who hark back to the 80s and 90s in the hope of a messiah who can speak to the selfish older generation who will soon be dead, or those who recognise that the threats from climate change and resource depletion requires urgent and unprecedented action?
In relation to the labour leadership, it's not about being more radical for radicalism's sake, it's about finding someone who can harness the anger and idealism of the new generation. In a nutshell, the older generation can go **** themselves. They'll be dead soon, and those following behind will hopefully not make the same horrendous mistakes.
“* off you old *s, you'll all be dead soon anyway” sounds like a perfect strap line for the next election campaign.
A sure-fire winner
Unfortunately, you’re brand of ‘common sense’ is quite popular in the Cobynite labour HQ.
And you’re slagging Andrew Rawnsley off for branding it ‘protest group politics’?
You, and the rest of the Corbynites, should familiarise yourself with the concept of convincing people of the validity of your argument rather than just shouting at them that they’re a bunch of ****s because they don’t share your opinions.
You know that you have have to get into power to change anything, right?
It’s a little known but true fact that being pious, sanctimonious and self-righteous doesn’t in itself save the world
Give him another 10 years on the allotment and even Jezza will maybe even realise that
You know that you have have to get into power to change anything, right?
Similarly you have to actually join a party to vote for the leader. Just saying.
Already have.
My mum and dad have re-joined too, as have quite a few other ex-members I know, all of whom left in disgust at Corbyn and his sixth form, placard-waving fellow travellers
But I believe the beardy messiah, while famously championing democracy and ‘empowering the membership’, is trying to change the rules so that anyone who joined the party (or re-joined) after the date of the general election won’t be able to vote in the upcoming leadership election
Yay communism Socialism!
Taken you all this time?
I voted for him twice whilst you were doing your little tantrums but not actually bothering to get off your arse and effect the change you wanted. You just seem hurt because the Corbyn supporters stole the march and know you did sod all to stop it.
I am glad you have finally joined now, at least it will lend some legitimacy to your arguments.
“* off you old *s, you’ll all be dead soon anyway”
Not what I said. You really need to calm down. The point is that the older generation will not be around for long, and the outdated politics they represent, things like climate change denial, narrow self interest, racism and nationalism will go with them.
You, and the rest of the Corbynites,
Weird cos the only person I see still going on about Corbyn is you. Let go of the obsession, everyone else has moved on already.
Keir Starmer favourite amongst the bookies. Is he your choice Binners?
I joined first time around to vote against Corbyn as I was pretty sure where it would lead*
Since then I know a lot of lifelong labour members who have left in despair at the state of the party and nobody who has joined.
But then I don’t know many sixth formers. My eldest daughter will be next year, studying politics, but she’s centre/left and thinks Corbyns a complete idiot too
I still hold out no hope. The common room PFJ will elect Rebecca Long Bailey, and as the favoured Corbynista sock-puppet she will continue the headlong march into the 1983 re-run of the political wilderness.
Irrelevance beckons
Cummings can’t believe his luck
* see the last two election results for confirmation of that
I think Jess Phillips would be brilliant. Exactly what the Labour Party needs.
Kier Starmer would be good too. As would Yvette Cooper
None of them have a cat in hells chance, obviously
Jeremy has spoken...
RLB Corbyn-approved sock-puppet it is
The next thumping Tory majority is already a done deal. All gift-wrapped
Cheers Momentum! You’ve played a blinder...
For the Tory’s
I voted for him twice
To be leader? That second time, you should have had the knowledge to understand the most likely consequences of your vote, and knew that the vast majority of MPs were saying he was useless in the role. Don’t expect the country to thank you for saddling them with the choices they had in front of them at 2019 elections.
Let go of the obsession, everyone else has moved on already.
Moved on? The Labour Party?! It might do. Here’s hoping for it… cheers!
Daz, Gen Z’ers are considered to be more right wing and conservative on balance than millennials, so if you are banking on them you are shit out of luck.
Lisa Nandy states the bleeding obvious
The left wing of the Labour Party has already decided to have a conversation with itself and to draw the conclusion that they were right all along and that they’d ‘won the argument’ (despite the worst loss since the 1930’s). They probably weren’t radical enough, right?
The ****ing electorate are all idiots anyway, and we just need to shout at them louder that they’re wrong.
Let’s nationalise veganism!
I got in a taxi today in Sheffield Binners, and for the first time - beside my Asian missus - had to put up with a racist tirade from a taxi driver on the way back from Meadowhall...who formerly voted labour but voted conservative this time because the Muslims were turning all the old pubs into Mosques. I had to resist garrotting the **** whilst he was driving.
Do you really reckon a bit more hardcore socialism is going to get those people back?
The battle lines have changed.
That’s kind of been my point all along.
This country will never vote for a socialist government. Never. Wouldn’t do in 1983, certainly won’t do it now. I don’t think we need any more proof of that
It’s glaringly obvious to anyone who’s spent much time outside Islington
Loads of people (like me) are self-employed and running small businesses, working in the gig economy and are looking at Len McClusky banging on about ‘collective bargaining’ like it’s 1973 and thinking “WTF are you even on about”?
Unfortunately that doesn’t describe anyone at the top of the present Labour Party, and I’m just waiting for the Cobynite Labour Party to draw the opposite conclusion and propose nationalising breakfasts and making it law that we all have to get around by space hopper
@kelvin don't you remember how badly the PLP acted? &then didn't have the courage to put someone decent against him. A big name might have had a chance. The PLP got it all the wrong way round, they should have backed him/ kept quiet til the election and (assuming the result was the same) then got rid. I would have voted against him after the first election even though he did ok.
He did ok? Faced with the total ineptitude of Theresa May and what is generally acknowledged as the worst election campaign in living history, he didn’t do quite as bad as everyone expected?
Brilliant!
What an achievement
He should have been long gone.
Merry Xmas Binners...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/24/labour-clean-break-jeremy-corbyn-dan-jarvis
Dan Jarvis going very heavy on the C word in that piece above which offers exactly zero solutions to the biggest problems today..
“There are some very simple things you have to do: you have to have a credible leader, you have to be credible when it comes to the economy and security, you have to have a manifesto programme that is credible and speaks about the challenges that the country faces. Those are the things we didn’t do in the most recent general election.”
Any of the usual suspects care to enlighten us to what 'credible' actually means apart from being an empty platitude? What's a 'credible' solution to climate change? What's a 'credible' solution to resource depletion? What's a 'credible' solution to poverty and inequality? The only opinions I'm hearing from the likes of Jarvis is how they can get back into power, not what they're going to do with it. And I'm pretty sure that's because, like before, they plan to do very little.
Seems pretty obvious to me that when politicians use the word 'credible', what they really mean is only being seen to be doing something, because they don't have the courage or conviction to stand up to the vested interests who would lose out if they really did want to tackle problems like climate change and poverty.
Any of the usual suspects care to enlighten us to what ‘credible’ actually means apart from being an empty platitude?
They’ve been telling you for years Dazh. You just choose not to listen.
Merry Christmas all!
Looking forward to 2020.
See you then.
Doesn't matter how credible it is if nobody wants it. Any plans to improve poverty and inequality don't go down well. The only party really trying to offer anything was Labour and most of the response to that was "where is the money coming from?"
That second time, you should have had the knowledge to understand the most likely consequences of your vote, and knew that the vast majority of MPs were saying he was useless in the role. Don’t expect the country to thank you for saddling them with the choices they had in front of them at 2019 elections.
As CTK says you have to remember that PLP were being obstructive from day one. They tried a coup, flung a bunch of muppets out as candidates and the membership voted for Corbyn, overwhelmingly, again. That should have been an end to it and they should have got down to making the best of it. Instead they dug in and continued to split the party along idealogical lines.
As for the rest blame me if you like but remember you're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight. That was 2016, this is now and a lot has happened since then. FWIW I don't particularly rate him these days but it was obvious at the time that sticking with the same folk wasn't working.
If we're talking demographics then 25-35 is where I've seen a lot of support. You know, the generation that grew up with Blairism and have seen where that road ended up going. Tories elected in by folk wanting the good times to keep rolling, a Labour party unelectable thanks to their toxic legacy and a subsequent decade of austerity, populism and lies that got us to where we are today. Maybe ask why folk are attracted to Corbyns politics rather than insulting them, have you learned absolutely nothing in the last few weeks?
dazh
Subscriber
Any of the usual suspects care to enlighten us to what ‘credible’ actually means apart from being an empty platitude?
It means "the candidate I personally want"
One of the better post-election analyses I’ve seen. Although I’m not sure what he’s getting at with the final point. Is he expecting the next labour govt to be Tory-lite as with Blair?
The only opinions I’m hearing from the likes of Jarvis is how they can get back into power, not what they’re going to do with it. And I’m pretty sure that’s because, like before, they plan to do very little.
"There was only one catch and that was Catch-STW, which specified that a concern for one own electability in the formation of a coherent policy platform automatically rendered that person unelectable in the eyes of the party faithful. As soon as a politician ceased to consider his or her electability, he or she became a viable leader, but not an electable one. Which in turn meant they were no longer a viable leader.'
Labour party unelectable thanks to their toxic legacy
The denial is strong with this one. Labour only became un-electable when they voted the wrong milliband in as leader, and the road, let's call it a dual carriage way with the labour left on one side and the tories on the other, all proceeded into heading in one direction that has lead to the destination we are at today.
The left wing of the Labour Party has already decided to have a conversation with itself and to draw the conclusion that they were right all along and that they’d ‘won the argument’
They do keep winning "moral victories".
I suspect that there are those on the left who are relatively happy with the recent election result...what better way to introduce disaster socialism, than after a five year bout of disaster capitalism which we are going to be getting? They would have to get elected first of course.
I suspect we will be seeing more moral victories in the future then.
@dazh that Guardian article is just so far off the mark it's hard to know where to start.
Front page of Saturday Guardian - Tom Watson claims he left parliament because of the brutality and hostility he experienced within the labour party.
Also blames poor organisation and messaging for labour's GE performance.
Critical of Corbyn's advisers but not, apparently, of the great leader himself.
Further interesting comment is that he voted for Owen Smith in last party leadership vote.
I thought Watson would be unequivocal when he decided to go public so I'm disappointed with his equivocation - maybe it's a way to avoid the flood of online criticism that would have resulted if he had been clear and direct in his comments.
No surprises there. That Guardian article is utter bollocks.
“The flood of online criticism”
?
Seriously?
The modern Labour Party is exactly the same as Mitant. Even the most cursory glance at social media will tell you that to criticise the glorious leader is to expose yourself to an endless volley of vindictive hatred from the grizzled old trots. If you’re female or Jewish, or both, then you’re really for it!
All the sane voices in the Labour Party (a lot of whom have just lost their seats anyway) will just quietly totter off - like Tom Watson - and leave the basket-case unelectable hard-left headbangers to get on with it. And who can blame them. Why expose yourself to that if you didn’t have too? And for what? Permanent opposition? Great!
The rest of us will just be left with permanent Tory rule
Yay!
Thanks for that.
Loved it in the 80’s. Living in the north west of England it was great! A real blast.
Can’t wait for another decade, or more, of it
Still... as long as you get to feel smug, pious and self-righteous, safe in the knowledge that they’re all absolutely, definitely right about absolutely everything, then that’s what really matters
Can't tell if your agreeing or not.
I was referring to the Guardian article Daz posted up as utter bollocks
If you refer to an absolute electoral arse kicking as a ‘moral victory’ then please do us all a favour and * off back to the common room and leave the politics to the grown ups.
imagined ‘moral victories’ count for * all other than permanent Tory rule.
How’s the self-righteousness feeling? Telling us all what’s best for us. Warm enough for you? Or do you need a bit more middle-class piousness?
Let's face it, Labour has become like a religious cult. Corbyn was always more concerned with being right than getting it right. Safe in the knowledge that when he finally gets to Marxist heaven and is met by comrade Paul at the pearly gates he'll go straight through, as his record of always saying the right thing will be un-blemished. Woe betide that he ever said anything pragmatic in his political past, lest he be held in purgatory whilst a committee meeting is set up to audit his political soul. Meanwhile he can look back at a real world that resembles a Hieronymous Bosch painting. His conscience will be clear though and that's the most important thing.