[Closed] Nasty, nasty Tories

The story is a bit sensationalist isn't it? (not autistic though, oh no)

A range of options that were discussed privately with a cynically conservative attitude? I'm not in the slightest bit surprised or shocked. Disappointed that a group of supposed public servants would even consider the options but given their record in the eighties, it's no revelation.

It's what happens when you elect a group of people who put financial advancement ahead of social justice and no, nothing has really changed.

It is what happens when you have to examine every possible alternative - from 'do nothing' to 'total decimation'. I do expect some real hand-wringing over this sort of thing - particularly from those who have never had to advise on or make very big decisions before. Of course the story will focus on this - which was never implemented. You need to think the unthinkable in most big issues.

Tory, Labour. Whatever. Keep trying to kid yourself there's a difference anymore.

Margaret Thatcher was urged to abandon Liverpool to "managed decline"

Well LFC obviously thought it a good idea as it's the model they've adopted in the intervening period.

That's definitely autistic reporting yoss! Whadderyeronabout?!?

A few comments/selected quotes
1. Liverpool wasn't left to rot - huge amounts of money went into the city in the 80's and it's much, much better off for it.
2. Wasn't just the Tories:

Sir Geoffrey Howe argued for a secret policy of "managed decline" in Liverpool
The cabinet papers reveal that he was horrified by the way Merseyside Police operated in Toxteth, saying they were not racist as they treated all suspects brutally.

"We do not want to find ourselves concentrating all the limited cash that may have to be made available into Liverpool and having nothing left for possibly more promising areas such as the West Midlands or, even, the North East.

The BBC could have had a headline which said 'Tories refused to let Liverpool fall into ruin' but of course that wouldn't get the same amount of attention would it?

Rather than letting Liverpool go the tories allowed the nation, apart from the south-east and the financial sector, to go into managed decline.

There, in print, is only a small and redacted part of the contempt that politicians of all parties hold for those who arn't part of the political class. The records that are held for longer periods of time, (some files on WW2 are closed for a century) or those informal minutes and urecorded coversations would make explosive stories.

Has the advent of email or the FOI act changed anything? No! You can bet that the records that we eventually see, and what was actually recorded at the time, will be quite different.

So, to sum up, the OP is blaming the Conservatives in the eighties for thinking about a bad option that they did not take up, instead doing the opposite, and claiming that they have not changed.

So. All good, then?

Has the advent of email or the FOI act changed anything? No! You can bet that the records that we eventually see, and what was actually recorded at the time, will be quite different.

Not so all good Mr W. Liverpool neeeded, and still needs jobs. Instead they got Heseltine and a garden festival...

I remember all this as a young man... I'm getting OLD!

A conservative government not having enough money to do all that it would like due to the economic mismanagement of the previous bunch of muppets.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Hasn't that already been admitted? I'm sure I saw an article a couple of weeks ago that said the minutes were a representation of what should have been said rather than what was actually said,(it is entirely possible that I have gone crazy and dreamed the whole thing up)...

I too read that somewhere recently, but again can't remember where. That said, it could also have been a re-run of [i]Yes Minister[/i]...

A conservative government not having enough money to do all that it would like

Oh no, most seem to do a sterling job of lining their mates' pockets with tax-payers' money very well indeed...

*cry cry cry*

Single to CIF please!

Tory, Labour. Whatever. Keep trying to kid yourself there's a difference anymore.

Its precisely that sort of lazy outlook that gets you coalition governments. Remember even after the last 12 years under Labour, which has apparently polarised opinion Cameron and the bunch were still unelectable. That is almost unprecedented after a 12 year term government.

There clearly is a difference between the parties, there will be consequences either way round, but not as severe as those under a coalition where nobody wins.

Have to agree with bob from kansas. We have a political ruling class all privately educated who have a complete and utter grip on power. Nothing will change in this country whoever you vote for. It will just continue to swap about left then right, good cop bad cop blah blah blah. Just keep your head down and get on with it!

A conservative government not having enough money to do all that it would like due to the economic mismanagement of the previous bunch of muppets.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

+1

Well not quite. This time we have run out of family silver to sell off at knock-down prices...

Have to agree with bob from kansas. We have a political ruling class all privately educated who have a complete and utter grip on power. Nothing will change in this country whoever you vote for. It will just continue to swap about left then right, good cop bad cop blah blah blah. Just keep your head down and get on with it!

A conservative government not having enough money to do all that it would like due to the economic mismanagement of the previous bunch of muppets.

While forgetting what the Muppets during after did as well.

He who is without sin...

It has been mentioned by friends in the past ha ha. Should we opt for a meritocracy or a democracy? Discuss. Or is that for another thread?

Classic sensationalist headline - wonder why BBC (who else) didn't lead with Tories angry at Police brutality. Err, it doesn't fit their agenda.

Real headline - One Tory minister proposed allocated resources to other regions than Liverpool. Doesn't really have the correct ring to it, does it. Much better to falsely claim it was all Tories etc.

Such is the wonderful art of journalism!!

Not a lazy Outlook whatsoever. Could be argued that the reason for a coalition is that there's no party significantly different to merit an outright win. Lazy's got nothing to do with it. I probably think more about who to vote for than many who always vote the same, regardless of time and circumstance.

Well we got Albert Dock a pointless pile of bricks done up to look like a shopping centre cafe, lovely building just such a waste of money, then we got the garden festival, still empty now, recnetly been done up nad the company went bust last year, so still work in progress, oh and lots of trees and slum clearance, and grass lots of grass.The green stuff that is, not the drug.

Thats about all thatcher gave lpool.

project - Member
Well we got Albert Dock a pointless pile of bricks done up to look like a shopping centre cafe, lovely building just such a waste of money, then we got the garden festival, still empty now, recnetly been done up nad the company went bust last year, so still work in progress, oh and lots of trees and slum clearance, and grass lots of grass.The green stuff that is, not the drug.

Thats about all thatcher gave lpool.

ohnohesback - Member
Not so all good Mr W. Liverpool neeeded, and still needs jobs. Instead they got Heseltine and a garden festival...

I remember all this as a young man... I'm getting OLD!

nobody done anything in the twenty years since she left power?

You should have voted for Derek Hatton and his Militant friends, they would have seen you right 😉

was it not a LABOUR council in liverpool who openly sent thier employees redundancy notices by taxi..

Suggest you go and read up on the Durham County Council local development plan of 1951 to learn about the history of "managed decline"

A rather wonderful concept of categorising villages as not economically viable (D Category), and prohibiting any new development.

managed Decline - A Labour invention 😉

PS, My Nana was christened, married and funeraled in Mount Carmel on High Park Street, half my family live in Aigburth, so I speak from experience that Liverpool is a sight better place now than it was in the seventies and early eighties, FACT 😉

Jeez, the right-wingers are masturbating themselves into a right old frenzy today. 🙂

Some first class deflection and we're also getting the BBC Left wing conspiracy. 😆

Quite reassuring to realise that behind the facade of fat double chinned bumbling old cock, that Howe was a proper Tory prick.

Just noticed this:

"Mr Heseltine considered the behaviour of the police in Liverpool 8 to be quite horrifying. They were not acting in a racialist fashion. They treated [u]all[/u] suspects in a brutal and arrogant manner."

😆

I'd have thought that a government's job is to consider "all" options but it's their decisions and actions/inactions that count

scaredypants - Member
I'd have thought that a government's job is to consider "all" options but it's their decisions and actions/inactions that count

how can you "fight the power" with an attitude like that 😉

don't you know it's all a right wing conspiracy to line the pockets of those in the SE at the expense of everyone especially those on Merseyside 😀

where would scouse cultural identity be if they couldn't act the perpetual victimn 😉

easy there, Tebbit !

I said they had to be judged on their [b]actions [/b]:wink:

In the last 10 years, we have had Liverpool one,a brand new museum, a new rebuilt library and another museum,Fred and his weather map, sunk,Desperate Scousewives on E4, and investment in many new factories and new building everywhere, soon regeneration of the 4 underground stations on the railway as well as Lime street, surface station.
Soon redevelopment of Stanley docks and warehouse along with the entire dock front.Not forgeting the huge development behind Central Station and bold street.

And one hell of a lot of it paid for by private companies.

On the same subject, from the- brace for it- Guardian today, you get this comment:

"The files show that when Michael Heseltine pressed the case to save Britain's inner cities with his cabinet paper, It Took a Riot, they ensured his demand for £100m a year of new money for two years for Liverpool alone was met with a paltry offer of £15m, with the condition that "no publicity should be given to this figure"."

So, those saying "Ah, it was just an option they discussed, judge them by their actions"- there's the action.

soon regeneration of the 4 underground stations on the railway as well as Lime street, surface station.

Damnit, we won't rest until they bring back the Overhead Railway 😀

Just think yourself bloody lucky I wasn't running the country at the time....

[img] [/img]

😉

wow the righties (tm) getting all defensive of the golden days

the BBC are sensationalising nothing high level discussions at the time considered the 'managed decline' of merseyside, thatcher herself couldn't understand why the police were so hated (only 8 black coppers on the whole of merseyside !, 30 - 50% unemployment )
it just confirms what many people think about thatchers government and is justifiably relevant considering the uks current situation

kimbers - Member
wow the righties (tm) getting all defensive of the golden days

Kimbers - not sure if tm is meant to be me, in which case the adjective is a false assumption.

My point was on sloppy reporting or in this case the assumption that this was the policy of one party - here the Tories. What the archives show is that there was debate WITHIN the Tory government between Howe and Hesletine over the merits or otherwise of investments in Merseyside. My objection is simply that it is a big jump from that to the argument/headlines that the Tories as a whole supported a managed decline for L'pool. Clearly not true.

It would be like saying that New Labour were anti or pro-Europe - when the party had a healthy debate about it.

But it DOES suit the BBC agenda to try to infer that this was a Tory party policy as it does to concentrate on this rather, say, on Hestletine's criticism of the police. So whatever my political persuasion (which is irrelevant), there is a simple objective statement here about what is reported and how.

There's the conspiracy again. 😆

teamhurtmore
Toxteth Riots, Howe Proposed Managed Decline For City

is the headline, in what way is that biased or misleading ?

unless you are seeing something I cannot ?
even the torygrah led with the same story
the BBC can be very blatant in their bias in some stories, but I don't think they are being disingenuous here.

more laughable is that the times led with 'thatcher and the expenses claim for a ladder ' or some such lighthearted example of Tory inocuousness.
now I call that a (Murdoch / Tory) conspiracy

Kimbers - has the title changed on the BBC? That's a serious question, not a wind up. I was sure it said something different.

I also read the article in DT and reckon that they may have done the same thing on-line. Was this after Howe gave his side of the story on R4? I read both articles on-line early this morning.

If not, then you are right and [b]I am completely wrong[/b]!! The bias and prejudice were all mine (by the looks of things!) as I read something into the BBC that actually wasn't there. Maybe Zokes OP clouded my perspective.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake - hopefully the last of the year!!

Leaves - muttering, "must read more carefully..."

I don't see how the proposal was all that unreasonable, to be honest. Isn't there a guy in the US who is leading the way with respect to certain cities there? I mean cities rise and they fade. That's history. It would not have been so radical to suggest that Liverpool had had its day.

At least I don't think so.

Liverpool got it easy, try being Scottish during the Wicked witch's reign....

Seems like a bit of a non-story, Tories in thinking about pooing on Northern monkeys...REALLY?

BBC REPORTS theres 80,000 pissed scots due in edinburgh tonight, somebody better tell them thatcher hasnt died, its just new years eve a day early.