[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28468526 ]Is this the final straw? - forget the UN peacekeepers - it's gone beyond that now in my opinion[/url]
ibttil
He said the Israeli army had been formally given the co-ordinates of the shelter in Beit Hanoun.
So the use of precision weapons in this particular case is clearly a war crime.
It's interesting to note that if it is proven that the Ukraine rebels were responsible for downing a civilian airline it is extremely unlikely that it will accepted as a satisfactory explanation if they claim that unfortunately civilians in war zones sometimes become unintended casualties.
So Ukraine rebels can accidentally target civilians in a war zone and it is a crime, but on the other hand Israelis can quite intentionally target civilians and it has no consequences for them at all. I guess that at the end of the day the only thing which matters is whether the US government supports you or not.
And make no mistake, Israel does [i]intentionally[/i] target civilians. Israel prides itself in having some of the most advanced and precise weaponry in the world.
In fact Israel castigates Hamas for using weapons which are indiscriminate and not aimed at precise targets, claiming that they would never do such a thing themselves.
And the purpose of targeting civilians ? Well it goes back to the motive of "collective punishment". To collectively punish a civilian population is a straightforward terrorist tactic, the aim is that the civilian population becomes so appalled, miserable, horrified, and scared, that they eventually stop supporting their government.
The eventual aim is to stop popular support for the Hamas government, it's punishment for voting in such a way that displeases the zionists in Isreal. The IDF should be seen as a terrorist organisation because that it precisely what it is - an organisation which uses terror tactics against civilians.
Although the IDF's terror tactics are actually counterproductive and invariably result in increased support for Hamas. Understandably Palestinians just end up hating Israel and the zionists even more.
Time for the UN to get things sorted out...
*nails fog to the wall*
Once things get polarized nothing can help. Just kill your enemies and wait 20 years for peace and reconciliation seems to be the mantra.
Although it seems to have been going on a bit longer than that and shows little sign of calming down.
I've been following the gaza situation mostly on twitter and some of the descriptions and photos are just sickening, there was a tweet to a video [url= https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=659830787443752&id=366987393394761&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2F17VPja5uRu&_rdr ]Here[/url] where a young university student showed Obama for what he really is, an apologist for Israel.
Dan Rivers from ITV is also someone worth following on twitter.
absolutely gob-smacked at the sheer arrogance of Mark Regev...but again what did i expect...he, like the rest of his Israeli political party are completely bereft of any human and moral decency.
the look of disgust on Emily Maitlis's says it all really...
Yeah i've looked at the newsnight interview on iPlayer - she tries to hide her disgust but it's plain to see, i know the Journalists/reporting has to be fair and impartial to both sides but with our politicians doing **** all i guess it's fair game for the reporters to show their feelings.
I still don't understand how the 'warnings' of incoming bombings from Israel work.
They phone up/leaflet/go door to door/shout over a megaphone to say "we're coming back in 2 hours and we're going to bomb this school/house/factory/rocket launchpad/whatever" so you'd all better evacuate.
But (in the case of somewhere like the UN compound) where are the people sheltering there supposed to go? Will they suddenly be safer if they believe the people who've been bombing everything else for the past week and they leave the protection of the UN? Would you choose to leave?!
And why are they delivering warnings anyway. If they can walk up and say "we're coming back to bomb you later" then 1: won't the bad guys leave, taking their weapons with them in between the warning and the bombing? So all you end up doing is punishing the civilians left behind? and 2: If they're able to deliver a warning (unless they're leaflets dropped by plane, they might be, I don't know) then how many enemy fighters are really there?
It all feels a lot like it's just demolition. The prewarned bombings aren't going to kill any fighters, they're just going to kill people who have nowhere else to go. And yet the warnings are cited as an example of Israel's commitment to protecting civilians. It's like me saying "I'm coming back tonight to burn your house down" and expecting an impartial observer to say "hey bails, that's really good of you".
In the past 16 days of fighting, 797 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed
F*** me, makes the downing of that plane look like nothing. I really don't understand how we are just sitting back and letting this happen 🙁
Israel is a terrorist state, no doubt about it. I'm genuinely ashamed of our government, past and current, for standing idly by and allowing this to happen.
what gets me is the way Mark Regev goes on about the Israeli policy of not targeting civilians and wanting to avoid civilian casualties and then saying that the civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas....he's obviously told himself that so many time that he actually believes it
he also does a good backtrack on the school attack by saying that they did issue an evacuation warning but "he cant be sure that the school was hit by the IDF"
if the IDF didnt then who did...Hamas? somehow i cant see that the IDF would call on behalf of Hamas to tell the Palestinians to flee because Hamas were about to bomb their own people...
the pre warning is just a ruse to make it look like they are giving people a chance to flee..
in the case of the UN school...the school claim they requested a cease fire so that they could safely evacuate the school but the IDF refused this request
the IDF now claim that they gave a 4 hour window but the evacuation was stopped by Hamas militants
given that one side is blatantly killing women and children and then saying that it is not their policy to target civilians...i know whose side of the story i'd rather believe
plus how much time elapses between the warning and the actual shelling?
the IDF claim they are given plenty of time...in some cases a few hours
the palestinians say they are given a few minutes at most
i've seen a video where they were given 57 seconds...the family in that instance never made it out as they were hit while trying to get an elderly member of the family out
In the past 16 days of fighting, 797 Palestinians and 33 Israelis have been killed
F*** me, makes the downing of that plane look like nothing. I really don't understand how we are just sitting back and letting this happen
Reads almost like ethnic cleansing .... Round them all up into smaller and smaller places then blow them up
ethnic cleansing
There's another word for that. It's not often I agree with Ernie, but I do here.
Israel is a terrorist state, no doubt about it. I'm genuinely ashamed of our government, past and current, for [s]standing idly by [/s][i]supporting Israel[/i] and allowing this to happen.
Nothing will stop Israel until the despicable shits in power in the UK and USA stop encouraging them, so that's never then...
There's another word for that. It's not often I agree with Ernie, but I do here.
genocide...thats what it is
there are ministers who serve on the Knesset such as Ayelet Shaked who openly encourage this by saying:
“Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”
and then you have Mordechai Keder, an Israeli academic who, in a recent interview said:
“Terrorists like those who kidnapped the children and killed them — the only thing that deters them is if they know that their sister or their mother will be raped in the event that they are caught. What can you do, that’s the culture in which we live.”
Host Yossi Hadar pointed out Israel could not “take such steps.”
“I’m not talking about what we should or shouldn’t do,” Kedar insisted. “I’m talking about the facts. The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped.”
“That’s all. That’s the only thing that will bring him back home, in order to preserve his sister’s honor.”
Would like to hear your comment on this Gonzy:
SECRETARY-GENERAL, OUTRAGED AT ROCKETS FOUND IN UNITED NATIONS-ADMINISTERED SCHOOLIN GAZA, DIRECTS FULL REVIEW, SWIFT IMPLEMENTATION OF SECURITY PLAN
The following statement was issued today by the Spokesman for UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:
The Secretary-General is alarmed to hear that rockets were placed in an UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) school in Gaza and that subsequently these have gone missing. He expresses his outrage, and regret, at the placing of weapons in a UN-administered school. By doing so, those responsible are turning schools into potential military targets, and endangering the lives of innocent children, UN employees working in such facilities, and anyone using the UN schools as shelter.
The Secretary-General notes that this is inconsistent with UN Security Council resolution 1860 (2009), which calls for the prevention of arms smuggling. He demands that militant groups, who are responsible, must stop such actions and should be held accountable for endangering the lives of civilians in this manner.
The Secretary-General has asked for a full review of such incidents and how the UN responds in such instances. The United Nations is taking concerted action to increase its vigilance in preventing such episodes from happening again. To this end, the Secretary-General has directed the UN Department of Safety and Security (DSS) and the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS) to immediately develop and implement an effective security plan for the safe and secure handling of any weapons discovered in United Nations premises. Further, he has directed UNMAS to immediately deploy personnel with expertise to deal with this situation.
The Secretary-General calls on all of those who have any influence over militant groups to send an unmistakable message that this is unacceptable.
Finally, the Secretary-General expresses his full support for the tremendous work of the staff of UNRWA, who continue to operate under deeply challenging circumstances.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16045.doc.htm
Nothing will stop Israel until the despicable shits in power in the UK and USA stop encouraging them, so that's never then...
Yet time after time, election after election we keep voting the same despicable shits into power. We are collectively to blame for that.
After voting these shits into power how many people even bother to go see their local MP during their elected term? Seldom do, mostly for personal issues at that, we get the representation we deserve.
So the use of precision weapons in this particular case is clearly a war crime.
@gonzy There seem to be claims and counterclaims of the building being hit either by tank shells or by Hamas Rockets. I don't see any claims that the building was hit by GPS guided weapons. There is also the fact that in conflict situations you don't always hit the target you where aiming at.
I am somewhat surprised any civilians had remained in that area, likewise the UN. It's in the part of Gaza at the centre of the fighting.
As an aside who's side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ? I strongly suspect there are have been far more than 1,000 civilian casualties in that war. There must be many many 1000's or Iraqi's killed by suicide bombs in the past 10 years
Yet time after time, election after election we keep voting the same despicable shits into power.
@rene - maybe the politicians have seen something or taken facts into account you are not aware of ? I cannot see the UK or US Government supporting a terrorist organisation like Hamas. Aside from that being the wrong thing to do it would be electoral suicide.
@ Jambalaya - Clearly I'm not expert, and I'm working on the basis that none of us really are, but Gaza is really quite small, that being the case, is there a part of Gaza now that isn't "at the centre of the fighting"?
If that's not the case then where can people go to?
Not encouraging Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas. Not even close.
@ninfan...was that statement from Ban Ki Moon in reference to the school that was hit yesterday or another school in Gaza?
if it was the case why coulldnt the IDF simply go in with its ground forces and take over the site and locate the weapons?
no instead they took the cowards route of hitting it with shells/rockets knowing that the UN is too spineless to openly condemn the Israeli brutality
this was late relaesed by Ban ki Moon:
The following statement was issued today by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon:I am appalled by the news of an attack on an UNRWA [United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East] school in Northern Gaza where hundreds of people had taken refuge.
Many have been killed — including women and children, as well as UN staff.
Circumstances are still unclear. I strongly condemn this act.
Throughout the day, our staff had been attempting to arrange a humanitarian pause in the hostilities so that civilians could be evacuated.
I express my profound condolences to the families of the victims and those of so many hundreds of innocent Gazans who have tragically been killed as a result of the massive Israeli assault.
When I briefed the Security Council from Ramallah just two days ago, I condemned Hamas rocket fire and called on Israel to exercise particular care to avoid any attack on United Nations premises where civilians have taken refuge. More than 100,000 Gazans — that’s 5 per cent of the total population — have sought refuge in UNRWA facilities.
I once again stress to all sides that they must abide by their obligations under international humanitarian law to respect the sanctity of civilian life, the inviolability of UN premises and to honour their obligations to humanitarian workers.
Today’s attack underscores the imperative for the killing to stop — and to stop now.
From here I will continue to work with international and regional partners to help reach an agreement to end the fighting as soon as possible for the people of Gaza and Israel.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2014/sgsm16046.doc.htm
evidence that the UN is too scared to openly pin the blame on the IDF for destroying one of its school and killing 15 civilians in the process
Mark Regev all but admits to the IDF sending the school a warning of the attack but stops short of admitting to the actual attack so he can try to shift the blame onto Hamas...
1,200 killed in Iraq since the start of July, farmers, women, kids, imam's. 8,000 civilians killed so far this year. I'm not making light of the situation in Gaza but civilians are being killed in conflicts everywhere and the ISIS forces are well armed.
[url= https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ ]link[/url]
@Notter -the ground assault is focused on that top/right (North/East?) corner
Thanks for that Jambalaya.
Without wanting to sound antagonistic are air strikes, on the whole, limited to that area also? (I know my question was relating to your quote of where the heart of the fighting is)
Still not entirely sure where the civilians are meant to get to be (relatively) safe.
@Notter - no the air strikes cover a much wider area, they are more precise than a tank shell and the firing/environment is less chaotic. It's the ground assault which has created the most civilian casualties on a relative basis and that's focused in that top part as far as I know.
I did did a quick calculation and in Iraq the portion of civilian deaths vs combatants is 65%-75%, I know it's not directly comparable but its a comparison to show many civilians are killed in any conflict. The days of battlefield wars are long past.
Killing people's kids has never been a way of making people like you.
Agree the days of battlefield war are long past but the striking of a supposedly known "place of safety" regardless of who ultimately did it, is a step too far.
On my second question, and I'm not asking you specifically Jambalaya, where in Gaza can a civilian / family go to to be relatively safe? Is there such a place?
its a comparison to show many civilians are killed in any conflict.
Wow. I'd never realised. Thanks. That makes it all ok then. And of course, because nobody's discussing Syria, Iraq etc on [b][i]a thread about the Gaza conflict[/i][/b], that means none of us care.
There's someone else who typically uses diversionary tactics on threads like this. Funnily enough, you both seem to be on the same side.
@dd - I am making the comparison as I see so much news coverage and forum posts highly critical of what's happening in Gaza yet very little about ISIS, there seems to me to be little balance. More muslims are being killed by other muslims than in the alleged (by posters here) genocide being waged by Israel against the Palestinians. Far more civilians are dying in Iraq than in Gaza. We have stories about the expulsion of Christians (who will otherwise be put to death), decrees that all women be subject to FGM and must wear a full veil.
I am appalled by both situations but I only see a reaction here to one.
Actually, sod that. I really have other things I need to be doing today. 🙂
As an aside who's side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ? I strongly suspect there are have been far more than 1,000 civilian casualties in that war. There must be many many 1000's or Iraqi's killed by suicide bombs in the past 10 years
dont start with the whataboutery again...that was done on the other thread...if you want to talk about that then start a new thread about it and i'll join you there so we can discuss it...this thread in its content seems to be quite specific contrary to what the thread title may be so lets stick to it
decrees that all women be subject to FGM and must wear a full veil.
what decrees are these then?
like i said if you want to discuss ISIS start another thread
EDIT: you say more civilians have died in Iraq? show me the figures that prove it was at the hands of fellow Iraqi Muslims and not American/British military personnel
as for what is happening in Gaza/Palestine...this has been going on since 1947...over the recent years it has escalated especially in the last month hence the public uproar
This thread is specifically about the genocide in Gaza and the moral contempt for the apologists that the vast, VAST majority feel and express.
You have an opinion about Syria or Iraq? Start a thread.
decrees that all women be subject to FGM
I agree that this thread isnt the place for that discussion but I read these earlier today:
[url= http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/07/24/3463683/no-isis-isnt-ordering-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq/ ]#UN statement that #ISIS issued fatwa calling 4 FGM 4 girls is false residents of Mosul say including a doctor, journalist and tribal leader.[/url]
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/isis-deny-ordering-fgm-girls-mosul ]Doubts grow over ISIS FGM[/url]
As an aside who's side are you on with regard to ISIS and the Iraqi government ?
What a stupid completely irrelevant comment.
I guess attempting to shift the focus away from Israel and onto a totally unrelated issue is the best that the pro-Israelis can hope to do. They certainly can't defend or justify Israel's brutal and murderous behaviour.
[url= http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/bring-israelis-palestinians/24316 ]Jon Snows article/blog is perhaps the most telling of the news reporting as to what the general consensus is.[/url]
For what's it's worth it's gone beyond a possible peace process with the Zionist warmongers for me, if i was suffering like the vast majority of the Palestinians have over the past 40 years then i'd be first in line to support the removal of every Zionist from Israel, If i thought that i could fund the Palestinian state in any way possible i would, whether that be donating to Hamas or Fatah, they have endured an occupation of their land for too long and i support them in whatever form they see fit to rid Israel of the Zionists.
I always believed that Hamas wasn't responsible for the killing of the 3 boys...
Looks like I may have been right all along...
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
It looks increasingly likely the Israeli government knew this too but any excuse to show the Palestinians who's boss...killing a few along the way is an extra bonus
@gonzy Hamas fired 450 rockets into Gaza before the conflict escalated. That alone is sufficient to warrant the responce. There is a lot of propaganda flying around about the kidnap, I've read a few accounts attribubted to Palestinan sources that the two missing suspects who are Hamas members where indeed responsible.
What is happening in Iraq and Syria is highly relevant to Gaza and the responce we see here and elsewhere.
According to posters here the Isrealis are responsible for a genocide against Palestine but the fact is far more civilians have been killed in the inter-Muslim sectarian violence in those countries. The statistics are on the Iraq Body Count website, the US/UK forces don't send their soldiers on suicide missions, that's all Muslim on Muslim sectarian violence. Many more civilians have dies in Sectarian violence than have been killed by Allied forces. Hussein was a very brutal leader but he kept the sectarian violence in check.
Isreal has the right to defend itself against the rockets and the terrorists. Hamas intended the conflict to develop this way in an attempt to turn external opinion against Israel and weaken its support.
The Egyptians and Isreali's signed a peace agreement 50 years ago. Such an agreement will not be possible with Palestine until there is a non-terrorist lead government in Palestine. Many believe there will never be such a situation.
@yossarian You state the vast majority of people support your views, I think you are quite incorrect. Many people share the view that Hamas is a terrorist lead government interested soley in a one state solution and the destruction of Israel. I see you are another to use personal insults and attempts to label and trivialise people who disagree with your point of view.
@somafunk I am sure there is a way you could donate money to Hamas if you wished. British Muslims are travelling to Syria to fight I'm sure if you wanted you could do something similar in Gaza. Egyptians will not allow Palestinians free access over its border but foreigners can move.
I read yesterday that 300 prisoners captured by ISIS in Syria where executed. The story wasn't front page news. This is relevant as the press isn't on the ground in Syria so there are no images, no public outcry.
@yossarian You state the vast majority of people support your views, I think you are quite incorrect. Many people share the view that Hamas is a terrorist lead government interested soley in a one state solution and the destruction of Israel. I see you are another to use personal insults and attempts to label and trivialise people who disagree with your point of view.
Let's have a poll then shall we? I reckon the majority accept that Hamas are partially responsible for the conflict. I believe that the majority also believe that Israel's incarceration, intimidation and murder of Palestinian civilians is a war crime as bad as any we have seen.
Oh and for the record and just so you are absolutely clear - I am happy to label ANYONE who defends Israel's actions as a disgusting apologist for genocide, because that is what they are.
So we agree, those who don't agree with you should in your opinion be labelled and pigeonholed. Like the other thread, those who disagree should be shouted down so that all that remains are people who agree with you so that you can re-assure yourself you are totally right.
What is happening in Gaza is in no way shape or form a genocide. The closure of the border between Israel and Gaza is not in any way shape or form a war crime (and As I have noted many times before the Eyptians closed their border after Hamas came to power). In modern day conflicts Civilans now form the majority of the casualties. The civilian deaths in Gaza do not represent a war crime.
What is happening in Gaza is terrible but the situation in Syria and Iraq is far worse, over 200,000 deaths due to sectarian conflict between Suni and Shiate and between government and opposition/terrorist forces. Those conflicts are harder to polarise as they are Muslim on Muslim and not the Jew vs Muslim characterisation of the conflict in Gaza. Also as it so dangerous in Syria and Iraq there is virtually no reporting, no images, no video so it is ignored when the reality is what is happening is far worse.
What is happening in Gaza is terrible but the situation in Syria and Iraq is far worse
If you want to play that little game we can all play it.
What the racist zionist regime in Israel is doing today is incomparably worse than anything the Apartheid regime in South Africa did when they were in power.
The Apartheid regime was quite rightly seen as a despicable and hated regime the world over, but even in the most famous massacre of Apartheid period, the Sharpeville massacre, the Apartheid regime only managed to murder 69 innocent people. To the Israelis that doesn't even represent a slap on the back of the wrist.
So if Apartheid South Africa was quite rightly seen as a pariah state which was ostracized by the international community (except Israel btw) for its brutal treatment of black Africans fighting for their rights, then Israel's far worse brutal treatment of Palestinians warrants it being even more ostracized from the international community.
And using your logic presumable Hamas should be seen as the freedom fighters they are in the same way as Nelson Mandela and the ANC were after being initially labelled terrorists by the regime.
[img] 
[/img]
Are you sure you still want to play that game ?
What is happening in Gaza is in no way shape or form a genocide. The closure of the border between Israel and Gaza is not in any way shape or form a war crime (and As I have noted many times before the Eyptians closed their border after Hamas came to power). In modern day conflicts Civilans now form the majority of the casualties. The civilian deaths in Gaza do not represent a war crime.
You are an apologist for murder. Plain and simple. Dress it up however you like, call it whatever you want. It is ethnic cleansing and genocide.
I reckon the majority accept that Hamas are partially responsible for the conflict. I believe that the majority also believe that Israel's incarceration, intimidation and murder of Palestinian civilians is a war crime as bad as any we have seen.
Agreed
however I would add the caveat that if you treat any population the way the Palestinians have been treated a reasonable percentage of them will end up wanting to kill their oppressors and end up as "terrorists"
when you are comparing Israels behaviour to what is happening in a civil war waged between religious zealots on one side and a dictator on the other and saying look we are better than them then you really are desperate to look "civilised".
All but zionist view much of what they do as war crimes.
Ah, good old Mandela - nice to see terrorists sticking up for each other isn't it?
(PS, the difference between terrorists and freedom fighter is pretty clear, one wears a clear identifying mark or uniform to differentiate themselves from the civilian population, and carries arms openly when involved in fighting or acts preparatory to fighting, has a command structure and respects the laws of war - the other one doesn't)
Out of interest how many Palestinians have Israel killed since the trouble started years ago?
ninfan - MemberAh, good old Mandela - nice to see terrorists sticking up for each other isn't it?
So you think that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
I think all your comments with regards to Israel should be seen in that context, ie, for you Nelson Mandela represented a terrorist. And you obviously had no issues with the racist Israeli state supporting the Apartheid regime.
For me in contrast Israel represents a terrorist state and the IDF a terrorist organization. I base that on the fact that they use tactics to deliberately terrorize civilians and break their morale, the classic tactic of a terrorist. In fact that's the reason they are call terrorists - because they aim to terrorize civilians.
Nothing to do with what he represents to me or whether I supported apartheid (and I didn't)- its the fact that he fitted the dispassionate international definition of a terrorist rather than a freedom fighter. Perhaps if you put your own political leanings and shared fascination with communism behind you you could see that.
I reckon the majority accept that Hamas are partially responsible for the conflict.
[i]While Israel has deployed its media machine, telling the world that it has the right to defend itself against foreign aggression, arguing that no country should ever be made to tolerate systematic terror, even though under international law such narrative holds no legal ground as Israel has been de facto occupying Gaza, rendering null and void the notion of Gaza as a foreign entity, little has been said of Israel's real motives.
To quickly settle Israel's argument that it legally and morally can and should defend itself against any aggression coming from Gaza, it is important to understand that the Gaza Strip is not, under international law, a sovereign state, it is an occupied land, therefore Israel cannot declare war on its people, rather it owes its people protection.
As explained by Nura Erakat in a report published in Intifada Palestine, "Military occupation is a recognised status under international law and since 1967, the international community has designated the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as militarily occupied. As long as the occupation continues, Israel has the right to protect itself and its citizens from attacks by Palestinians who reside in the occupied territories. However, Israel also has a duty to maintain law and order, also known as 'normal life', within territory it occupies. This obligation includes not only ensuring, but prioritising, the security and well-being of the occupied population. That responsibility and those duties are enumerated in Occupation Law."
As for Palestinians in Gaza they do however have an inherent right to resist foreign occupation. Such right is again, protected under international law.
But as the following arguments will attempt to demonstrate all the above, the contradicting narratives, the political manipulations and media campaigns, are but a distraction from far more pragmatic realities and maybe truth – the war on Gaza has little to do with sovereignty, terror, politics or even religion, rather it has everything to do with energy.
If Israel is so keen on levelling Hamas it is essentially because the faction has categorically refused to discuss an energy sharing agreement whereby Israel would have access to Gaza's gas resources.
Let us all remember that Israel faces an energy crisis of biblical proportion and that Gaza's untapped and unexploited billions of dollars represent a fortune and a lifeline which Tel Aviv will not tolerate to go to waste.
As noted by Tascha Shahriari-Parsa: "Operation Protective Edge is the war of a colonial state dedicated to expanding its theft of Palestine's natural resources ... incarcerating and bombing its people in the world's biggest open air prison, while growing rich at their expense."
Rather than a bunch of lunatic radicals animated by the savagery of the crusades, Zionists are actually quite a practical bunch. What they seek in Gaza is merely access to Palestine's underground riches. Whatever happens on the surface is just there to act as a public distraction, a ploy designed for the masses so that Israel could commit grand larceny in perfect impunity under the very nose of the ever pliable world community. Who after all would dare deny the plight of martyr Israel?
To borrow the words of Tascha Shahriari-Parsa when she wrote a report for The Ecologist: "Behind the operation, behind the mass Israeli and US propaganda attempting to justify the massacre, and behind the death of every child in Gaza is a conflict rarely discussed - an imperialist conflict and a contradiction that rests on Israel's ambitions to appropriate and profit from Gaza's natural gas resources."
[b]Palestine's vast natural resources[/b]
Let us go back to 2000 when British Gas (BG) discovered that Gaza sat on an estimated $4 billion worth of natural gas. Needless to say that this discovery came as a shock to Israel, as suddenly Gaza, this little slither of land which Palestinians have been discarded upon, this purgatory which Zionists imagined to crush Palestinians' hopes and dreams, became a key geo-strategic priority. Come hail and high waters, Israel would have to gain access to those resources.
Since BG made its first estimation, it was established that Gaza's gas reserves are far greater than first anticipated. According to Michel Chossudovsky, a Canadian economist and prominent analyst, Gaza is basking in as much wealth as the State of Kuwait.
Rather than live in abject poverty, Gaza should be a vibrant business hub, a brilliant economic success. Instead, it has been withering away under Israel's blockade, forced to scrap and beg for its daily bread, its people reduced to servitude.
Let us remember that Israel's maritime blockade coincides with BG's discovery. Let us remember that it is since 2000 that Israel has denied Palestine access to its territorial waters, thus infringing on international law and de facto putting Gaza under siege; all because Israel wants to pillage Palestine's resources.
[b]Not convinced yet?[/b]
Well, let us refer to an interesting and rather revealing comment made by former Israeli army Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon back in 2007 when he laid bare Israel's true motives. Answering comments in regards to Gaza's gas riches, he noted: "Proceeds of a Palestinian gas sale to Israel would likely not trickle down to help an impoverished Palestinian public. Rather, based on Israel's past experience, the proceeds will likely serve to fund further terror attacks against Israel. A gas transaction with the Palestinian Authority will, by definition, involve Hamas. Hamas will either benefit from the royalties or it will sabotage the project and launch attacks against Fatah, the gas installations, Israel - or all three ... It is clear that without an overall military operation to uproot Hamas control of Gaza, no drilling work can take place without the consent of the radical Islamic movement."
What Ya'alon is really saying is that since Hamas will unlikely agree to a deal with Israel, Israel needs therefore to eliminate Hamas, by declaring its faction a terror organisation – even though many would argue that it is a resistance movement, according to international law.
[b]Israel needs gas now![/b]
So why a war now? To put it bluntly, Israel cannot wait any longer. Plagued by high unemployment and rising inflation, Israel needs to find a viable solution to both its energy crisis and mounting economic difficulties – financing an eternal war can be rather costly.
According to Israel's own projection, the state will face an aggravated energy crisis by 2020. Earlier this July, Haaretz published a report in which it quoted the excerpt of a report written by chief scientists from the Energy and Water Ministry and the Environmental Protection Ministry, explicitly mapping out Israel's energy crisis. It read "We believe Israel should increase its [domestic] use of natural gas by 2020 and should not export gas. The Natural Gas Authority's estimates are lacking. There's a gap of 100 to 150 billion cubic metres between the demand projections that were presented to the committee and the most recent projections. The gas reserves are likely to last even less than 40 years!"
Israel is quite simply running out of time. If recent mass protests in Israel in regards to depreciating living conditions and social injustice are anything to go by, officials indeed feel a great sense of urgency.
As Israel's needs increase, so has its determination to by-pass international law, as before Israel's will nations should only bow and recoil in awe.
Since whatever Israel cannot negotiate it will obliterate, beginning of course with Hamas, the war on Gaza came as a natural development to Israel's geo-strategic realities.
Let us remember that the last time Israel marched on Gaza, in 2008, its military deployment also aligned with its contracting of BG to discuss critical negotiations around Gaza's natural gas. A coincidence? Maybe not.
This new war on Gaza is a colonial war. This new war on Gaza has little to do with self-defence or terror or sovereignty... it has however everything to do with Israel's neo-imperialistic ambitions.
[url= http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush#sthash.ZPrXQXaH.dpuf ]Article Link[/url][/i]
Indeed only a rabid marxist views Noble prize winning Mandela as a freedom fighter and indeed it takes political leaning to see him as anything other than how you describe him
Oh the ironing
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nelson_Mandela_awards_and_honours ]a list of the 250 honours he won in his lifetime[/url]
The Palestinian issue cannot be solved unless one side is totally annihilated. The question is which side.
If you think that they are able to achieve peace then you are off your head as this issue has been going on for thousand of years since the time of Pharaoh who cast one of them out from Egypt.
😯
Three fish
interesting conspiracy, except why not just:
[img] 
[/img]
interesting conspiracy, except why not just:
It's a conspiracy in the sense that Israel and much of the mainstream media conspire to avoid mentioning the subject. Here:
[url= http://www.rense.com/general84/guess.htm ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680 ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2489992/armed_robbery_in_gaza_israel_us_uk_carve_up_the_spoils_of_palestines_stolen_gas.html ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2014/01/russia-palestine-offshore-gas-field-gaza.html# ]Link[/url]
Ok, but that still doesn't really explain why Israel couldn't just slant or horizontal drill the gas if they really wanted it?
Ok, but that still doesn't really explain why Israel couldn't just slant or horizontal drill the gas if they really wanted it?
Oh, I thought you were joking.
Well, it would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?
That tends to be the problem with conspiracy theories, more often than not they involve incredibly convoluted and fragile solutions to otherwise simple problems...
*shakes head*
he fitted the dispassionate international definition of a terrorist rather than a freedom fighter. Perhaps if you put your own political leanings and shared fascination with communism behind you you could see that.
For people right across the world Nelson Mandela was one of, if not the most, respected, admired, loved, and inspirational human being in their lifetimes, a truly great man.
Thank you Z-11 for pointing out that this globally loved and respected man was a communist, indeed a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of South Africa at the time of his arrest. I personally wouldn't want to exploit that fact despite the obvious shared ideological commitment. So I'm grateful for your intervention on the matter.
But it is clear that contrary to your ridiculous slur that it isn't simply communists who don't view Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.
Millions, if not billions, across the world admired him without in any way being communist. It isn't a prerequisite to recognizing his commitment to his people and the struggle for social justice. Even his former foes grew to love and respect him.
Your personal opinion of Nelson Mandela is shared by a tiny minority of white supremacists, the sort of deranged knuckle-dragging neo-nazis who post on Stormfront forum - those people on the far-right with which you share so much.
BTW Nelson Mandela was also a committed Christian and he claimed that it was Christian faith which sustained him during his darkest hour. You might be shocked to learn that he was/is also admired by many non-Christians.
@ernie the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation. It used violent means to pursue its agenda. We all accepted this and supported it or turned a blind eye as we knew Aparteid was wrong. I am not playing a "game" at all with Iraq and Syria, I am simply pointing that far more civilams are being killed as a Muslim sectarian conflict escalates. Yet we have no debate on that as it doesn't fit the stereotypes available in Gaza. It is relevant to ask those on here who so forcefully oppose Israel how they see these other conflicts. We really don't need another political middle east thread.
To those against the closed Isreali Gaza border what do you say about Egypt ? They closed the border as soon as Hamas gained control.
By the way there has been an ISIS sourced map showing their objectives circulating on social media, it includes the capture of the whole of the middle east (including of course Israel) inc Suadi Arabia, all of North Africa and then then expansion via India to South East Asia to linkup with Indonesia.
the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation.
You had to be pretty racist and/or very right wing to argue that at the time never mind now.
They were freedom fighters as he/they showed by what they did when they secured freedom.
Hamas was created and supported by the israeli government as an alternative to the PLO. They despised the PLO that much, that they formed Hamas to try to destabilise the PLO.
The israelis created the monster and now that it has turned against them...they dont like it
And yet again you are trying the divert things by bringing up Isis....you need s new thread for that
Palestinian protest in Manchester yesterday and there was a tiny handful of chubby idiots waving IsraelI flags. Alot of Officers around/saving them really. They looked pathetic
@JunkYard, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. What most of the senior leadership of the ANC have done since they gained power (Mandella excluded) is become very wealthy. I see once agin you've used that tried and tested technique of labelling someone who disagrees with you. In your book anyone who thinks the ANC was a terrorist organisation must be a racist.
@hora does it really matter whether protestors are slim, medium or large ?1
Sadly but predictably Hamas did not honour the ceasefire so the Isreali offensive will recommence. The area around Beit Hanoun contains a huge number of tunnels, 60 I read with their entrances hidden within buildings (almost exclusively residential and certainly non-official). This is just the number discovered and destroyed by the Isrealis and I imagine there are many more.
tunnels wouldn't be necessary if Israel wasn't holding the Palestinians in 'the world's largest open prison', where access to food, water, building materials, free movement, aid, healthcare, fisheries, and education wasn't illegally withheld to the extent that there's malnutrition, disease, poverty and no hope of a better life for themselves, their children or their children's children.
but yeah, GO ISRAEL! woo hoo! lets not learn from the history of the ghettos in Warsaw! Yahoo!!
@ernie the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation. It used violent means to pursue its agenda.
By that definition every army and government in the history of the world should be considered a terrorist organisation - i agree. The UK government are terrorists.
Hague gone and bliar our so called middle east peace envoy, seems to have gone into hiding.
Also wars and fights between countries happen quite often, this one is just getting a lot of television and media reporting, takes the minds of the middle classes off how screwed up uk plc is.
@JunkYard, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Thanks for the cliche rather than reason.
What most of the senior leadership of the ANC have done since they gained power (Mandella excluded) is become very wealthy.
No other govt does this do they? Are you saying they are human beings?
Woosh as you deliberately miss the point. They have established a democratic govt that represents the country, set up truth and reconciliation councils and led the country fwd peacefully. they have not punished the whites nor ignored international law nor, on gaining freedom, done anything even vaguely "terrorist". They were freedom fighters, they got freedom and they became democratic. you cannot argue against the facts hence this.
I see once agin you've used that tried and tested technique of labelling someone who disagrees with you. In your book anyone who thinks the ANC was a terrorist organisation must be a racist.
I suggest you read what i said [ oh the ironing of sayin i am doing insults] and defeat it with a logical argument rather than emotive and misleading appeals. I see you have used the tired and tested technique of deflection and refusing to accept that fact that all but the very right wing and/or racist considered the ANC and mandela to be freedom fighters [ is this not true then?]. It is why he won over 250 international awards and was the most revered leader of the 20 th Century. Try and negate that rather than say I said you were a racist 🙄
Whatever your personal view of the ANC the vast majority of the world population,then and now, viewed them as freedom fighters trying to overthrow an illegitimate, racist and tyrannical government that oppressed the majority and indigenous population, not least because that is what they did.
If you wish to label them terrorists then you are free to do so. You are are on fairly short and ignoble list of racist and/or right wingers.
I am neither racist nor right wing. Just pointing out a fact about the ANC. They ran an armed and violent campaign against the government and against civilians. Indeed there where many racists amongst the white population but I know personally many liberal South Africans who experienced terror attacks against their families, sometimes these where fatal. Your same logic applies to the IRA. You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you. Mandella was an extra-ordinary man of that there is no doubt and I never questioned that.
French media have been reporting that significant numbers of the images being released by Palestinaian sources of injured civilians are actually taken in Syria and had been released previously. Some 2,500 Palestinians, mostly civilians have been killed by Syrian government forces in the conflict there to date. It is another example of the double standards of those who argue so vehemently against Israel when more civilians are being killed in sectarian conflicts elsewhere in the region.
Once again I say how disappointed I am that Hamas could not agree to extend the ceasefire. It is absolutely their "big picture" agenda to try and force world opinion against Israel using the death of civilians. They cannot back down now as they have achieved nothing. Their rhetoric continues about how they are winning and they encourage Palestinais to remain in their homes and not vacate the battle areas as their presence is the best way to defend against air strikes and ground forces.
You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you
Only if you think being called right wing or racist is demonising. Do you?
You like to say I am name calling because you cannot rebut the point
Your same logic applies to the IRA
and you claim I am the one name calling when you go and do that. Again you cannot rebut the point so you do this whilst claiming i am doing it
Either explain with multiple examples of countries/ parties/regimes that are left wing and or liberal that label the ANC as terrorists or accept the point I made.
Emotive explanations of the suffering of your many "liberal" friends in South Africa an argument does not make.
I am happy to condemn Syria and I await you condemning israel. i suspect I will have a longer wait as you continue to blame the victims and hamas for israel killing civilians.
In my innocence, I was wondering how we can make 3 pages on a neighbourly incident, I should have realised.... 😉
Not as good as the allotment thread from a few years ago.
Not as good as the allotment thread from a few years ago.
It was excellent.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-bloody-allotment-is-being-taken-over ]My bloody allotment is being taken over![/url]
It's a shame imo that MrNutt's contributions have become so rare these days.
its sad that there are so many apologists for violence on this forum. these are people suffering ffs, where is your humanity?
as far as I can tell, it's people killing people cos they don't like 'em for some reason or other. and not having a very good reason. you need a ****ing good reason to kill children. I have no idea how people livbe with themselves after cold blooded killing children
blair is worth some where around £100millon, is paid £250.00 to stand up and give a little speech. he is to busy making money.