What is happening in Gaza is terrible but the situation in Syria and Iraq is far worse
If you want to play that little game we can all play it.
What the racist zionist regime in Israel is doing today is incomparably worse than anything the Apartheid regime in South Africa did when they were in power.
The Apartheid regime was quite rightly seen as a despicable and hated regime the world over, but even in the most famous massacre of Apartheid period, the Sharpeville massacre, the Apartheid regime only managed to murder 69 innocent people. To the Israelis that doesn't even represent a slap on the back of the wrist.
So if Apartheid South Africa was quite rightly seen as a pariah state which was ostracized by the international community (except Israel btw) for its brutal treatment of black Africans fighting for their rights, then Israel's far worse brutal treatment of Palestinians warrants it being even more ostracized from the international community.
And using your logic presumable Hamas should be seen as the freedom fighters they are in the same way as Nelson Mandela and the ANC were after being initially labelled terrorists by the regime.
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Are you sure you still want to play that game ?
What is happening in Gaza is in no way shape or form a genocide. The closure of the border between Israel and Gaza is not in any way shape or form a war crime (and As I have noted many times before the Eyptians closed their border after Hamas came to power). In modern day conflicts Civilans now form the majority of the casualties. The civilian deaths in Gaza do not represent a war crime.
You are an apologist for murder. Plain and simple. Dress it up however you like, call it whatever you want. It is ethnic cleansing and genocide.
I reckon the majority accept that Hamas are partially responsible for the conflict. I believe that the majority also believe that Israel's incarceration, intimidation and murder of Palestinian civilians is a war crime as bad as any we have seen.
Agreed
however I would add the caveat that if you treat any population the way the Palestinians have been treated a reasonable percentage of them will end up wanting to kill their oppressors and end up as "terrorists"
when you are comparing Israels behaviour to what is happening in a civil war waged between religious zealots on one side and a dictator on the other and saying look we are better than them then you really are desperate to look "civilised".
All but zionist view much of what they do as war crimes.
Ah, good old Mandela - nice to see terrorists sticking up for each other isn't it?
(PS, the difference between terrorists and freedom fighter is pretty clear, one wears a clear identifying mark or uniform to differentiate themselves from the civilian population, and carries arms openly when involved in fighting or acts preparatory to fighting, has a command structure and respects the laws of war - the other one doesn't)
Out of interest how many Palestinians have Israel killed since the trouble started years ago?
ninfan - MemberAh, good old Mandela - nice to see terrorists sticking up for each other isn't it?
So you think that Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
I think all your comments with regards to Israel should be seen in that context, ie, for you Nelson Mandela represented a terrorist. And you obviously had no issues with the racist Israeli state supporting the Apartheid regime.
For me in contrast Israel represents a terrorist state and the IDF a terrorist organization. I base that on the fact that they use tactics to deliberately terrorize civilians and break their morale, the classic tactic of a terrorist. In fact that's the reason they are call terrorists - because they aim to terrorize civilians.
Nothing to do with what he represents to me or whether I supported apartheid (and I didn't)- its the fact that he fitted the dispassionate international definition of a terrorist rather than a freedom fighter. Perhaps if you put your own political leanings and shared fascination with communism behind you you could see that.
I reckon the majority accept that Hamas are partially responsible for the conflict.
[i]While Israel has deployed its media machine, telling the world that it has the right to defend itself against foreign aggression, arguing that no country should ever be made to tolerate systematic terror, even though under international law such narrative holds no legal ground as Israel has been de facto occupying Gaza, rendering null and void the notion of Gaza as a foreign entity, little has been said of Israel's real motives.
To quickly settle Israel's argument that it legally and morally can and should defend itself against any aggression coming from Gaza, it is important to understand that the Gaza Strip is not, under international law, a sovereign state, it is an occupied land, therefore Israel cannot declare war on its people, rather it owes its people protection.
As explained by Nura Erakat in a report published in Intifada Palestine, "Military occupation is a recognised status under international law and since 1967, the international community has designated the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as militarily occupied. As long as the occupation continues, Israel has the right to protect itself and its citizens from attacks by Palestinians who reside in the occupied territories. However, Israel also has a duty to maintain law and order, also known as 'normal life', within territory it occupies. This obligation includes not only ensuring, but prioritising, the security and well-being of the occupied population. That responsibility and those duties are enumerated in Occupation Law."
As for Palestinians in Gaza they do however have an inherent right to resist foreign occupation. Such right is again, protected under international law.
But as the following arguments will attempt to demonstrate all the above, the contradicting narratives, the political manipulations and media campaigns, are but a distraction from far more pragmatic realities and maybe truth – the war on Gaza has little to do with sovereignty, terror, politics or even religion, rather it has everything to do with energy.
If Israel is so keen on levelling Hamas it is essentially because the faction has categorically refused to discuss an energy sharing agreement whereby Israel would have access to Gaza's gas resources.
Let us all remember that Israel faces an energy crisis of biblical proportion and that Gaza's untapped and unexploited billions of dollars represent a fortune and a lifeline which Tel Aviv will not tolerate to go to waste.
As noted by Tascha Shahriari-Parsa: "Operation Protective Edge is the war of a colonial state dedicated to expanding its theft of Palestine's natural resources ... incarcerating and bombing its people in the world's biggest open air prison, while growing rich at their expense."
Rather than a bunch of lunatic radicals animated by the savagery of the crusades, Zionists are actually quite a practical bunch. What they seek in Gaza is merely access to Palestine's underground riches. Whatever happens on the surface is just there to act as a public distraction, a ploy designed for the masses so that Israel could commit grand larceny in perfect impunity under the very nose of the ever pliable world community. Who after all would dare deny the plight of martyr Israel?
To borrow the words of Tascha Shahriari-Parsa when she wrote a report for The Ecologist: "Behind the operation, behind the mass Israeli and US propaganda attempting to justify the massacre, and behind the death of every child in Gaza is a conflict rarely discussed - an imperialist conflict and a contradiction that rests on Israel's ambitions to appropriate and profit from Gaza's natural gas resources."
[b]Palestine's vast natural resources[/b]
Let us go back to 2000 when British Gas (BG) discovered that Gaza sat on an estimated $4 billion worth of natural gas. Needless to say that this discovery came as a shock to Israel, as suddenly Gaza, this little slither of land which Palestinians have been discarded upon, this purgatory which Zionists imagined to crush Palestinians' hopes and dreams, became a key geo-strategic priority. Come hail and high waters, Israel would have to gain access to those resources.
Since BG made its first estimation, it was established that Gaza's gas reserves are far greater than first anticipated. According to Michel Chossudovsky, a Canadian economist and prominent analyst, Gaza is basking in as much wealth as the State of Kuwait.
Rather than live in abject poverty, Gaza should be a vibrant business hub, a brilliant economic success. Instead, it has been withering away under Israel's blockade, forced to scrap and beg for its daily bread, its people reduced to servitude.
Let us remember that Israel's maritime blockade coincides with BG's discovery. Let us remember that it is since 2000 that Israel has denied Palestine access to its territorial waters, thus infringing on international law and de facto putting Gaza under siege; all because Israel wants to pillage Palestine's resources.
[b]Not convinced yet?[/b]
Well, let us refer to an interesting and rather revealing comment made by former Israeli army Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon back in 2007 when he laid bare Israel's true motives. Answering comments in regards to Gaza's gas riches, he noted: "Proceeds of a Palestinian gas sale to Israel would likely not trickle down to help an impoverished Palestinian public. Rather, based on Israel's past experience, the proceeds will likely serve to fund further terror attacks against Israel. A gas transaction with the Palestinian Authority will, by definition, involve Hamas. Hamas will either benefit from the royalties or it will sabotage the project and launch attacks against Fatah, the gas installations, Israel - or all three ... It is clear that without an overall military operation to uproot Hamas control of Gaza, no drilling work can take place without the consent of the radical Islamic movement."
What Ya'alon is really saying is that since Hamas will unlikely agree to a deal with Israel, Israel needs therefore to eliminate Hamas, by declaring its faction a terror organisation – even though many would argue that it is a resistance movement, according to international law.
[b]Israel needs gas now![/b]
So why a war now? To put it bluntly, Israel cannot wait any longer. Plagued by high unemployment and rising inflation, Israel needs to find a viable solution to both its energy crisis and mounting economic difficulties – financing an eternal war can be rather costly.
According to Israel's own projection, the state will face an aggravated energy crisis by 2020. Earlier this July, Haaretz published a report in which it quoted the excerpt of a report written by chief scientists from the Energy and Water Ministry and the Environmental Protection Ministry, explicitly mapping out Israel's energy crisis. It read "We believe Israel should increase its [domestic] use of natural gas by 2020 and should not export gas. The Natural Gas Authority's estimates are lacking. There's a gap of 100 to 150 billion cubic metres between the demand projections that were presented to the committee and the most recent projections. The gas reserves are likely to last even less than 40 years!"
Israel is quite simply running out of time. If recent mass protests in Israel in regards to depreciating living conditions and social injustice are anything to go by, officials indeed feel a great sense of urgency.
As Israel's needs increase, so has its determination to by-pass international law, as before Israel's will nations should only bow and recoil in awe.
Since whatever Israel cannot negotiate it will obliterate, beginning of course with Hamas, the war on Gaza came as a natural development to Israel's geo-strategic realities.
Let us remember that the last time Israel marched on Gaza, in 2008, its military deployment also aligned with its contracting of BG to discuss critical negotiations around Gaza's natural gas. A coincidence? Maybe not.
This new war on Gaza is a colonial war. This new war on Gaza has little to do with self-defence or terror or sovereignty... it has however everything to do with Israel's neo-imperialistic ambitions.
[url= http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush#sthash.ZPrXQXaH.dpuf ]Article Link[/url][/i]
Indeed only a rabid marxist views Noble prize winning Mandela as a freedom fighter and indeed it takes political leaning to see him as anything other than how you describe him
Oh the ironing
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nelson_Mandela_awards_and_honours ]a list of the 250 honours he won in his lifetime[/url]
The Palestinian issue cannot be solved unless one side is totally annihilated. The question is which side.
If you think that they are able to achieve peace then you are off your head as this issue has been going on for thousand of years since the time of Pharaoh who cast one of them out from Egypt.
😯
Three fish
interesting conspiracy, except why not just:
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interesting conspiracy, except why not just:
It's a conspiracy in the sense that Israel and much of the mainstream media conspire to avoid mentioning the subject. Here:
[url= http://www.rense.com/general84/guess.htm ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680 ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2489992/armed_robbery_in_gaza_israel_us_uk_carve_up_the_spoils_of_palestines_stolen_gas.html ]Link[/url]
[url= http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2014/01/russia-palestine-offshore-gas-field-gaza.html# ]Link[/url]
Ok, but that still doesn't really explain why Israel couldn't just slant or horizontal drill the gas if they really wanted it?
Ok, but that still doesn't really explain why Israel couldn't just slant or horizontal drill the gas if they really wanted it?
Oh, I thought you were joking.
Well, it would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?
That tends to be the problem with conspiracy theories, more often than not they involve incredibly convoluted and fragile solutions to otherwise simple problems...
*shakes head*
he fitted the dispassionate international definition of a terrorist rather than a freedom fighter. Perhaps if you put your own political leanings and shared fascination with communism behind you you could see that.
For people right across the world Nelson Mandela was one of, if not the most, respected, admired, loved, and inspirational human being in their lifetimes, a truly great man.
Thank you Z-11 for pointing out that this globally loved and respected man was a communist, indeed a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of South Africa at the time of his arrest. I personally wouldn't want to exploit that fact despite the obvious shared ideological commitment. So I'm grateful for your intervention on the matter.
But it is clear that contrary to your ridiculous slur that it isn't simply communists who don't view Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.
Millions, if not billions, across the world admired him without in any way being communist. It isn't a prerequisite to recognizing his commitment to his people and the struggle for social justice. Even his former foes grew to love and respect him.
Your personal opinion of Nelson Mandela is shared by a tiny minority of white supremacists, the sort of deranged knuckle-dragging neo-nazis who post on Stormfront forum - those people on the far-right with which you share so much.
BTW Nelson Mandela was also a committed Christian and he claimed that it was Christian faith which sustained him during his darkest hour. You might be shocked to learn that he was/is also admired by many non-Christians.
@ernie the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation. It used violent means to pursue its agenda. We all accepted this and supported it or turned a blind eye as we knew Aparteid was wrong. I am not playing a "game" at all with Iraq and Syria, I am simply pointing that far more civilams are being killed as a Muslim sectarian conflict escalates. Yet we have no debate on that as it doesn't fit the stereotypes available in Gaza. It is relevant to ask those on here who so forcefully oppose Israel how they see these other conflicts. We really don't need another political middle east thread.
To those against the closed Isreali Gaza border what do you say about Egypt ? They closed the border as soon as Hamas gained control.
By the way there has been an ISIS sourced map showing their objectives circulating on social media, it includes the capture of the whole of the middle east (including of course Israel) inc Suadi Arabia, all of North Africa and then then expansion via India to South East Asia to linkup with Indonesia.
the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation.
You had to be pretty racist and/or very right wing to argue that at the time never mind now.
They were freedom fighters as he/they showed by what they did when they secured freedom.
Hamas was created and supported by the israeli government as an alternative to the PLO. They despised the PLO that much, that they formed Hamas to try to destabilise the PLO.
The israelis created the monster and now that it has turned against them...they dont like it
And yet again you are trying the divert things by bringing up Isis....you need s new thread for that
Palestinian protest in Manchester yesterday and there was a tiny handful of chubby idiots waving IsraelI flags. Alot of Officers around/saving them really. They looked pathetic
@JunkYard, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. What most of the senior leadership of the ANC have done since they gained power (Mandella excluded) is become very wealthy. I see once agin you've used that tried and tested technique of labelling someone who disagrees with you. In your book anyone who thinks the ANC was a terrorist organisation must be a racist.
@hora does it really matter whether protestors are slim, medium or large ?1
Sadly but predictably Hamas did not honour the ceasefire so the Isreali offensive will recommence. The area around Beit Hanoun contains a huge number of tunnels, 60 I read with their entrances hidden within buildings (almost exclusively residential and certainly non-official). This is just the number discovered and destroyed by the Isrealis and I imagine there are many more.
tunnels wouldn't be necessary if Israel wasn't holding the Palestinians in 'the world's largest open prison', where access to food, water, building materials, free movement, aid, healthcare, fisheries, and education wasn't illegally withheld to the extent that there's malnutrition, disease, poverty and no hope of a better life for themselves, their children or their children's children.
but yeah, GO ISRAEL! woo hoo! lets not learn from the history of the ghettos in Warsaw! Yahoo!!
@ernie the ANC was by most definitions a terrorist organisation. It used violent means to pursue its agenda.
By that definition every army and government in the history of the world should be considered a terrorist organisation - i agree. The UK government are terrorists.
Hague gone and bliar our so called middle east peace envoy, seems to have gone into hiding.
Also wars and fights between countries happen quite often, this one is just getting a lot of television and media reporting, takes the minds of the middle classes off how screwed up uk plc is.
@JunkYard, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Thanks for the cliche rather than reason.
What most of the senior leadership of the ANC have done since they gained power (Mandella excluded) is become very wealthy.
No other govt does this do they? Are you saying they are human beings?
Woosh as you deliberately miss the point. They have established a democratic govt that represents the country, set up truth and reconciliation councils and led the country fwd peacefully. they have not punished the whites nor ignored international law nor, on gaining freedom, done anything even vaguely "terrorist". They were freedom fighters, they got freedom and they became democratic. you cannot argue against the facts hence this.
I see once agin you've used that tried and tested technique of labelling someone who disagrees with you. In your book anyone who thinks the ANC was a terrorist organisation must be a racist.
I suggest you read what i said [ oh the ironing of sayin i am doing insults] and defeat it with a logical argument rather than emotive and misleading appeals. I see you have used the tired and tested technique of deflection and refusing to accept that fact that all but the very right wing and/or racist considered the ANC and mandela to be freedom fighters [ is this not true then?]. It is why he won over 250 international awards and was the most revered leader of the 20 th Century. Try and negate that rather than say I said you were a racist 🙄
Whatever your personal view of the ANC the vast majority of the world population,then and now, viewed them as freedom fighters trying to overthrow an illegitimate, racist and tyrannical government that oppressed the majority and indigenous population, not least because that is what they did.
If you wish to label them terrorists then you are free to do so. You are are on fairly short and ignoble list of racist and/or right wingers.
I am neither racist nor right wing. Just pointing out a fact about the ANC. They ran an armed and violent campaign against the government and against civilians. Indeed there where many racists amongst the white population but I know personally many liberal South Africans who experienced terror attacks against their families, sometimes these where fatal. Your same logic applies to the IRA. You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you. Mandella was an extra-ordinary man of that there is no doubt and I never questioned that.
French media have been reporting that significant numbers of the images being released by Palestinaian sources of injured civilians are actually taken in Syria and had been released previously. Some 2,500 Palestinians, mostly civilians have been killed by Syrian government forces in the conflict there to date. It is another example of the double standards of those who argue so vehemently against Israel when more civilians are being killed in sectarian conflicts elsewhere in the region.
Once again I say how disappointed I am that Hamas could not agree to extend the ceasefire. It is absolutely their "big picture" agenda to try and force world opinion against Israel using the death of civilians. They cannot back down now as they have achieved nothing. Their rhetoric continues about how they are winning and they encourage Palestinais to remain in their homes and not vacate the battle areas as their presence is the best way to defend against air strikes and ground forces.
You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you
Only if you think being called right wing or racist is demonising. Do you?
You like to say I am name calling because you cannot rebut the point
Your same logic applies to the IRA
and you claim I am the one name calling when you go and do that. Again you cannot rebut the point so you do this whilst claiming i am doing it
Either explain with multiple examples of countries/ parties/regimes that are left wing and or liberal that label the ANC as terrorists or accept the point I made.
Emotive explanations of the suffering of your many "liberal" friends in South Africa an argument does not make.
I am happy to condemn Syria and I await you condemning israel. i suspect I will have a longer wait as you continue to blame the victims and hamas for israel killing civilians.
In my innocence, I was wondering how we can make 3 pages on a neighbourly incident, I should have realised.... 😉
Not as good as the allotment thread from a few years ago.
Not as good as the allotment thread from a few years ago.
It was excellent.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-bloody-allotment-is-being-taken-over ]My bloody allotment is being taken over![/url]
It's a shame imo that MrNutt's contributions have become so rare these days.
its sad that there are so many apologists for violence on this forum. these are people suffering ffs, where is your humanity?
as far as I can tell, it's people killing people cos they don't like 'em for some reason or other. and not having a very good reason. you need a ****ing good reason to kill children. I have no idea how people livbe with themselves after cold blooded killing children
blair is worth some where around £100millon, is paid £250.00 to stand up and give a little speech. he is to busy making money.
[url= http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/tony-blair-net-worth/ ]Blair worth 30 million dollars, not 100 million pounds[/url]
sorry, live with someone who spurts spurious facts out, have gotten into the habit of fact checking things...
😳
I'm increasingly of the belief that the Israeli forces on the ground and the Hamas fighters are out of the control of their political leaders. Hamas fighters are so crazed by religious fervour and hatred that they couldn't stop their members from launching 20 rockets into Israel before the truce had ended and most of the Israeli soldiers are so gung-ho or stoned that they don't obey whatever orders are passed down to them.
Moderate Palestinians and and Israelis are afraid to object to what's happening for fear of being attacked by the zealots.
blair is worth some where around £100millon, is paid £250.00 to stand up and give a little speech. he is to busy making money.
£250 a speech, he's done a few then to make a £100m. 😆
[url=
snow[/url]
Hamas fighters are so crazed by religious fervour and hatred
An interesting proposition but have you got any evidence to back it up ?
There is some evidence to suggest the contrary, ie, rather than being crazed by religious fervour and hatred Hamas are actually rather pragmatic and prepared to enter into negotiations. Which presumably is partly the reason why they were encouraged to participate in the EU funded elections of 2006, and which they won in Gaza with a comfortable majority. It's unlikely that politicians crazed by religious fervour would have won the election.
They are also prepared to comply with ceasefires and use their authority to enforce it on others. They are however fully entitled to defend themselves under international law when attacked by Israel and the subject of illegal Israeli measures.
[url= http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ ]Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say[/url]
They do of course hate the Israeli state, (or the "Zionist entity" as they like to call it, and they almost never use the term Jewish preferring to focus on the fact that it's the Zionists which they consider their enemies not Jews). So I guess that's true.
But you don't have to be crazed by religion to hate the Zionist state, in fact many atheists do. And I suspect the only thing that me and Hamas can totally agree on is a deep dislike of Israel.
They are however fully entitled to defend themselves under international law when attacked by Israel and the subject of illegal Israeli measures.
We've already done this, but they're not entitled to defend themselves by firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas (even if, as you're so determined to insist, Israel were doing he same)
Deliberate targeting of civilians is, by definition, illegal - even the Pals accept this
Glad you accept the Israeli IDF are acting illegaly ninfan.
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY ****ED UP. I can't believe that this is actually happening, and nobody is doing anything about it. What happened to the goverment that we trust to rule us? How can we simply trust them anymore. Why are we just sitting by an allowing this all to happen? I don't know. It's not about sides here, but about humanity. And that is NOT humane. I want to do something. But what? What can we actually do? God I feel so ****ing powerless.
I've tweeted (wow - like that will make a difference 🙄 ) all my local MP's (a few times now) to ask what they are doing with the political power at their disposal to bring pressure to bear on their party leaders to take a stance but i've not heard back from any of them, so the next time they come knocking on my door they'll be getting told exactly what they can do with their vote, only one independent bothered to reply with an obviously standard response.
You're quite right it's not humane, and yeah - we are pretty powerless 🙁 , you only have to view some of the reports that have been leaked online to see the distress and frustration that the reporters have for the situation in Gaza - these are people that have reported from conflicts across the world yet many are now taking a stance albeit in a backhanded way as otherwise it may taint the impartiality of the public broadcasts and that will open up another debate.
Start with your elected MP - find out their stance, if you don't get a satisfactory respond then go above him or to another local MP, keep asking them "what are you doing to bring pressure on your party leader to take a stance on this issue?".
It probably won't make the slightest difference, but it makes you feel better for a few minutes.
I was going to post a link to a twitter account that a friend has recently tweeted me of an aid worker who is currently active out there - but i decided against it as some of the tweets/photos would inevitably get posted up on here and from past modding i imagine this thread would get shut rather quick, #gaza and i'm sure you'll find them.
Sigh……..in the meantime (like i have for decades) continue to shun Israeli produce whether that be supermarket produce/clothing (funkier on chain reaction for example) or whatever and whenever i get the chance i mention why i'm shunning it unless it has a statement as to it's policy, quite a few companies now recognise the need to distance themselves from the Zionist regime.
I met enough IDF solders on leave in India/Goa to form a pretty solid opinion of them, they have no respect for any culture nor race apart from themselves.
There are no words to describe the images coming out of Gaza.
as otherwise it may taint the impartiality of the public broadcasts
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jon-snow-gaza-video-watch-the-channel-4-news-presenters-heartbreaking-plea-to-end-child-violence-9632434.html ]Jon Snow[/url] has been criticised on this very point... as if his emotional response to the mounting numbers of children killed & injured somehow compromised his integrity as a journalist. 🙄
