[Closed] "Muslim" terrorists attack French magazine in Paris

I expect the bookies are slashing the odds on Marine Le Pen as the next French President.

I believe that most Germans weren't nazis before Hitler came along either

Most of those who were, thought it was a bad idea after not too long, I'll bet...

Food for the apologists.

Archbishop of Raqqa, Amel Nona -

"Our sufferings today are the prelude of those you, Europeans and Western Christians, will also suffer in the near future. I lost my diocese. The physical setting of my apostolate has been occupied by Islamic radicals who want us converted or dead. But my community is still alive.

Please, try to understand us. Your liberal and democratic principles are worth nothing here. You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever growing number of Muslims. Also you are in danger. You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles. You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values. If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home."

The Guardian has not cut the scene where the terrorists execute an injured policeman lying on the ground.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/jan/07/gunmen-shooting-paris-police-officer-charlie-hebdo-video ]link[/url]

Are you not going to respond, Woppit?

The Guardian has not cut the scene where the terrorists execute an injured policeman lying on the ground.

Im hoping every newspaper worth its salt republishes the front page cartoon tomorrow morning!

I believe that most Germans weren't nazis before Hitler came along either

Or after for that matter.

Very true.

From Wikipedia, the free enyclopedia
Nazi Germany and the Third Reich are names for the German Reich from 1933 to 1945, when it was under control of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party (NSDAP). Under Hitler's rule, Germany was transformed into a fascist totalitarian state which controlled nearly all aspects of life.

Nazi Germany ceased to exist after the Allied Forces defeated Germany in May 1945, ending World War II in Europe.

"Nazi Germany Before World War II
On January 30, 1933, Adolf Hitler, leader of the Nazi Party, became Chancellor of Germany. It was not long, however, before he turned himself into a dictator.
by Brenda Ralph Lewis
Olympic Games, Berlin 1936In 1919, when the Treaty of Versailles was signed, so ending World War I, Hitler was a corporal in the defeated German army. Infuriated by the punishing provisions of the Treaty, Hitler vowed revenge. For this purpose, he created a political party, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist or Nazi Party) with himself as Führer (leader).
The “Undesirable” Victims of the Nazis

At first, few Germans paid much attention to the Nazis,

However, many soon regretted giving Hitler their support.

By the end of 1933, all political parties except for the Nazi Party were outlawed.

Hitler so detested the Jews that he wanted to exterminate them throughout the world. By 1938, German Jews had lost their citizenship, their jobs and their businesses. They and their homes and synagogues were regularly attacked by the thugs of the Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS).

Nazi Benefits which Came at a Price
At least at first, other, more “desirable” Germans were delighted to have jobs after years of poverty and unemployment. They also enjoyed family allowances and improved medical services, and for some, there were holidays partly paid for by the government.

But there was a price to pay for these benefits. Workers had no right to strike or negotiate for better pay. Although wages were not high, they had to contribute one quarter of their earnings to Nazi organizations in taxes and subscriptions. And always, the sinister Gestapo, the Nazi secret police, was watching, waiting to pounce on anyone who showed the slightest sign of discontent or anti-Nazi ideas.

The shadow of terror and brute force had fallen over Germany, but this was largely concealed from the outside world. Visitors to Germany were shown what was best about Nazi rule - the happy, healthy children in holiday camps, the splendid public buildings or the new autobahnen, the freeways.

Nazi Germany as Visitors Never Saw it
What they were not allowed to see was the evidence that, contrary to the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, Nazi Germany was secretly preparing for war. These preparations were achieved in all sorts of furtive ways. Aircraft manufacturers built planes for the Lufthansa passenger airline that could be quickly converted into bombers. What looked like pleasure speedboats were actually naval torpedo raiders in disguise.

Adolf Hitler Shocks the World
Then, on March 16, 1935, Adolf Hitler shocked the world by announcing the truth: that Germany had been constructing guns , tanks and other armaments forbidden at Versailles.

Thoroughly alarmed, the British and the French rushed to build up their own somewhat neglected armed forces. Meanwhile, their political leaders tried to halt the new Nazi menace by a policy of appeasement, which meant giving in to Hitler’s demands in the hope that he would not make even greater stipulations.

This was why no move was made to prevent the German army from marching into the Rhineland in 1936 or Austria in 1938. In both cases,, Hitler was blatantly breaking the Treaty of Versailles which had demilitarized the Rhineland and forbidden the Anschluss, the union of Germany with Austria.

Encouraged by this inaction, Hitler demanded the Sudetenland, a part of Czechoslovakia where many German-speaking people lived. As he expected, there was more appeasement.

The Munich Conference and its Aftermath
At a conference in Munich on September 30, 1938, the British and French prime ministers - Neville Chamberlain and Edouard Daladier - agreed to this demand without even consulting the horrified Czechs. Six months later, Hitler occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia, despite the fact that he had agreed not to do so at Munich.

Next, Hitler threatened the Poles who, like the Czechs had German-speaking people within their borders. By this time, though, even Chamberlain had lost patience and in August 1939, Britain and France promised to aid the Poles if they were attacked.

The Start of World War II
The attack came on a September 1, 1939 when a powerful German army invaded Poland. The Germans soon had the much weaker Polish forces reeling back under the hammer blows of their blitzkrieg, lightning war.

Hitler was confident that Britain and France would let him have his way in Poland, just as they had done in the Rhineland, Austria and Czechoslovakia. But he was wrong. On September 2, the British and French governments issued an ultimatum: if Nazi Germany did not withdraw its forces by 1100 hours next day, they would declare war.

The Germans did not withdraw and on September 3, World War II began."

Is there a pattern? Are we going down the same road? Is it going to take another world war? I do realise that Nazi Germany was an actual nation & not an ideology.

[i]Im hoping every newspaper worth its salt republishes the front page cartoon tomorrow morning![/i]

And would you still say that if your Wife worked as a Receptionist at one of those Newspapers?

Working in London for 30 years during which there have been bombs very close by (IRA and 7/7), "ring of steel" security measures, a colleague I sat 10 feet from who was on Lockerbie flight, another good friend who was in the compound attacked by terrorists in Riyhad etc. A good friend who worked for KBW and was lucky not to be in the WTC on 9/11. I have just as strong views on the IRA as I do ISIS/Al-Q

Yet you're fine with Jewish terrorism, as we've established in previous threads.

You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values.

So, what we are saying is that Muslims are not equal to us, because they don't think we're equal to them? 😕

" ... You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles. You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values. [b]If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home.[/b]"

That is the chilling reminder to all of you coz you think you know how to handle them until it is too late.

esselgruntfuttock - Member

Is there a pattern? Are we going down the same road? Is it going to take another world war? I do realise that Nazi Germany was an actual nation & not an ideology.

Shall we deal with the current issue before we dig up WWII again?

[quote=jerseychaz ]Im hoping every newspaper worth its salt republishes the front page cartoon tomorrow morning!
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

That is all

Well, definitely Islamists.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85c_1420633406

There's another video on there of a French police officer getting shot that I wouldn't recommend clicking if you want to sleep tonight. After watching that video, id say these men looked trained as opposed to home grown idiot nutcases. I really wouldn't be surprised if they are hardened ISIS militants.

Tom_W1987 - Member
These men looked trained as opposed to home grown idiot nutcases.

Home grown are meant to carry out suicide bombing only ... they are disposable.

These are of course well trained shooters to handle AK47 which is not easy without training.

I really wouldn't be surprised if they are hardened ISIS militants.

Excellent piece from Vice News (outstanding news site with lots of coverage main stream sites don't have an different view points)

[url= https://news.vice.com/article/charlie-hebdo-shooting-rampage-is-the-fourth-similar-attack-in-france-in-three-weeks ]Vice News; Fourth Similar Attack in France in 3 weeks[/url]

No, any idiot can rage out and go on a shooting spree. Doing it calmly, using controlled fire and escaping takes training and a very different mindset.

IMO I don't think it's long before we get an attack like the recent one in ****stan.

Shall we deal with the current issue before we dig up WWII again?

I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.

At first, few Germans paid much attention to the Nazis,

How many Muslims are paying much attention to extremism?

I'm afraid I still can't comprehend the difference between a hateful ideology that calls itself a political movement and one that calls itself a religion.

Bad is Bad whatever the name and I fear the Wests failure to address the problem will result in an excessive reaction down the line.

The really frightening thing is that a group like this with those types of weapons plus worse, could wreak havoc and death in any of our Cities, with even specialist police firearm teams unable to cope.

How long would it take to get properly trained Army/SAS troops into the area? It would be all over long before then. FFS!

And would you still say that if your Wife worked as a Receptionist at one of those Newspapers?

Well, the Yanks wouldn't have any issues - as the receptionists are often armed. We have to draw a line and say that we are ready to stand for our own values, newspapers need to employ people who are willing to take thoses risks and they also need to spend more money on security.

The really frightening thing is that a group like this with those types of weapons plus worse, could wreak havoc and death in any of our Cities, with even specialist police firearm teams unable to cope.

How long would it take to get properly trained Army/SAS troops into the area? It would be all over long before then. FFS!

The proliferation of illegal guns in the UK is actually ridiculous, we might shit on the yanks for their gun laws but we have 10s if not 100s of thousands of illegal weapons on the streets - it's just no one has much of an incentive to use them that often at the moment.

I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.

It could lead anywhere [ but logical and coherent debate]
There are very few parallels to be drawn between a religious pan national movement and a nationalist fascistic expansionist one. They both committed atrocities but that is it. We are hardly "appeasing" them as the numerous invasions and bombings of them should suggest.

You cannot beat an idea or a religion with persecution and bombs

esselgruntfuttock - Member
I'm simply pointing out the obvious of where this could lead.

Ya, but you have to remember there are plenty of PhDs on STW so stating the obvious only undermine their intellectual capacity. You score no points there.

How many Muslims are paying much attention to extremism?

I think you are asking too much of everyone if you think people are that concerned about extremism until it strikes. Usually it's too late.

🙄

BTW - the argument from earlier about 'the LRA aren't a threat to us in the west'. Well no, of course not - that's either a particularly poor straw man or people just being moronic.

The point is, that when a nutty organisation do unspeakably vile things on a large scale in the name of christianity, no-one tries to claim there is a general problem with christianity. The Ku Klux Klan is an overtly christian organisation, or try Anders Breivik, or some of these:

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

FWIW there clearly is a problem with the extremist interpretation of Islam - but making crass generalisations and over-hyping the danger isn't going to help anyone.

You cannot beat an idea or a religion with persecution and bombs

Personally I think this is wrong really, the Taliban and some AQ commanders have even admitted they wished the 9/11 towers had never been attacked as the yanks put their command structure back by a few decades.

Calculated attacks by trained individuals can be stopped by attacking command and training structures and killing leaders - the Americans have been pretty successful in this regard as AQ hasn't had the capability to attack America on home soil for quite some time now. The Russians have pretty effectively stomped the Chechen rebels on the head post 2004 as well. Stopping lone wolf attacks by lunatics is harder though.

right so Al quaeda still exist but what i said was horse shit? has their world view been beaten? Have they stopped doing terrorist attacks?

probably be a stronger rebuttal if you said how we no longer have Al Qaeda and terrorism since we attacked the axis of evil. Then again that is at odds with the facts

We cannot defeat Islamic extremis by bombing them all can we?
Reduce , impact on yes, defeat No

I

think you are asking too much of everyone if you think people are that concerned about extremism until it strikes. Usually it's too late.

Like Ze Germans? 🙂

probably be a stronger rebuttal if you said how we no longer have Al Qaeda and terrorism since we attacked the axis of evil. Then again that is at odds with the facts

AQ still exists, what I'm saying is that their capabilities are greatly diminished. This is a short term solution, the longer term solution is a cultural war but these can last hundreds of years.

I haven't read this thread, but just heard about this on R4 News. Such events will only fuel the rise of a right wing reaction across Europe, of the kind we have seen recently in Germany. This is all going to end very badly!

This statement from Salman Rushdie captures my feeling...

"Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.
"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.
"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.
"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."

"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity"

As a longtime Private Eye subscriber I agree wholeheartedly.

esselgruntfuttock - Member
Like Ze Germans?

Nein.

You cannot compare them to Germans. Germans built VW (air cooled), Mercedes Bens, Audi, BMW etc and were technologically superior to most in those days.

What we have seen now is just guerrilla warfare on soft targets.

oldboy - Member

I haven't read this thread, but just heard about this on R4 News. Such events will only fuel the rise of a right wing reaction across Europe, of the kind we have seen recently in Germany. This is all going to end very badly!

That's the cycle ...

I fear there will be repercussions for the wider muslim community in France as a result of these murders. There have always been simmering tensions between the indigenous French and their immigrant population - This attack is a gift for the right wing in France. If I were a conspiracy believer I'd have things to say about a well trained, adept and informed (victims at a board meeting) death squad having the discipline to escape armed police but the lack of discipline to not shout out plenty of allah akbars etc etc so there's no doubt who did it.. .

joolsburger - Member

I fear there will be repercussions for the wider muslim community in France as a result of these murders. There have always been simmering tensions between the indigenous French and their immigrant population - This attack is a gift for the right wing in France.

It's inevitable. You can only push people to some extend then all hell break loose and that's where one side will be severely defeated. Then everyone take notes of their guilt, contemplate for a generation or two and the cycle starts again with something else.

We cannot defeat Islamic extremis by bombing them all can we?

Nope but it'd be a start....target the heads of these organisations, target the training camps...absolutely annihilate groups like ISIS/ISIL etc...special forces soldiers essentially on long term rotation executing these murderous individuals.

Combine the above with intelligence gathering and proper surveillance in this country of the preachers, students, websites etc that spread the violent extreme form of Islam that is so problematic at the moment.

Accompany the above with a more outspoken and robust approach from Politicians and newspapers who seem paralysed by fear of offending peaceful Muslims, openly and vigorously criticise this wing of the religion...mock it if necessary but dont try and pass it off with the cliched "they're not real Muslims" nonsence...they believe they are, they believe they are interpreting the faith the correct way, they believe everybody else is wrong.

...while we're at it encourage the sane and peaceful majority to dob their own lot in if they have concerns.
When a youth has a complete change of character, starts talking about jihad and adopts a more radical approach to the faith at home i'd hope the parents would have the guts to come forward and share that information with authorities....sadly it doesnt seem to happen.

Seriously, it would benefit the Muslim majority to put its own house in order because the non Muslim public only has the stomach for so much until all Muslims are seen as the same....and then you'll have a situation where far right parties cruise into power and the religion and its followers (peaceful or otherwise) will have a tough time of it....how long before revenge attacks on Muslims?
Look at the Jews in pre-war Germany....followers of Islam could find themselves on the recieving end of that if they dont face up to the danger of their own lunatic fringe.

Edit- just read a few posts above mine, Salman Rushdie has it right.

A simple way of reducing the threat would be to control mass immigration of muslims into the country.

IMO I think we've been playing a game in which we should have kept out of the Muslim world and not interfered with geopolitics or we should have gone down the Israeli route. We have done neither and now the only option that I feel is left, is getting as dirty as the Israelis.

badnewz - Member A simple way of reducing the threat would be to control mass immigration of muslims into the country.

Of course it would. What a brilliant well thought out idea. 🙄

Apart from the fact the Islamic terrorist here are British borne that is an excellent suggestion

Yeah, however we do have the benefit of being an island meaning that we can place our borders under greater scrutiny than the French. The French have long borders which allow people like these to potentially skip over the Syrian/Iraqi borders into Turkey and then the EU.

What pisses me off the most is the anti-immigrant feeling that's caused by this then extends to immigrants who are from entirely different backgrounds, like my wife for example, I think we need to find a damage limitation strategy/rhetoric that placates and limits the right to venting their frustrations on the Muslim world.

Our egalitarian society is slowly going to hell otherwise. It's a damage limitation exercise now.

Apart from the fact the Islamic terrorist here are British borne that is an excellent suggestion,

I've been opposed to mass immigration for years anyhow - so if I had my way, there wouldn't be a significant Muslim community in the UK in the first place.

Nope but it'd be a start....target the heads of these organisations, target the training camps...absolutely annihilate groups like ISIS/ISIL etc...special forces soldiers essentially on long term rotation executing these murderous individuals.

We can thank the Americans for founding ISIS

"the US-run prison provided an extraordinary opportunity. “We could never have all got together like this in Baghdad, or anywhere else,” he told me. “It would have been impossibly dangerous. Here, we were not only safe, but we were only a few hundred metres away from the entire al-Qaida leadership.”

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story ]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story[/url]

I've been opposed to mass immigration for years anyhow - so if I had my way, there wouldn't be a significant Muslim community in the UK in the first place.

I would never have guessed anyway do you accept that reducing it now wont help or not ? Just trying to see whether facts have any impact on your view.

Of course it would be beneficial. You have no manners btw (and I expect, no friends either).