[Closed] Muirfield golf course

But play the Old for free any day of the week, if I am not mistaken.

Bet they love that relationship.

Aren't we missing the main point.. That gold is s**t

I didn't know that thm, quite surprising. i come through Royal Troon and old prestwick on my commute home, and they are the quietest courses you will ever see, it's rare to see more than 30 folks playing on each course.

I'd imagine that some members of muirfield wont be bothered about losing the open, as it has a big knock on effect of the course being shut for weeks in the summer, and the spell leading up to and after the championship - the course will be hard as hell!. Mega tight fairways and high rough.

Muirfield the club is well within its rights to refuse women membership. The R&A is well within its rights to exclude the course from hosting The Open. No problem there, but I know which party comes out of it looking like a bunch of dinosaurs.

I remember a story about a golf club where the women members complained about the language they could hear coming from the men only terrace as they walked off the 18th green towards their locker room. The club looked into the issue and............

Banned women from walking in front of the clubhouse when leaving the 18th and made them walk all the way around.

Sometimes it just ain't worth the hassle.

Must've been a pretty low brow golf club that Danny, any private golf course round here - and on the Ayrshire coast there are a few! - definitely do not allow swearing.

Yeah, I think it was an old course with 'new money' members. Somewhere in midlands or Home Counties if memory serves.

I wouldn't be much good at any of your nice clubs, then. Golf is the single most frustrating bloody game ever invented by man. At least when I played cricket and got skittled by a straight one I could always claim it darted in off the seam. In golf the ball is stationary, as is the hole. It really should be easy.......

My take on it all, Muirfield and the HCoEG can do what they like with their club. Do they have to let Women in nope should they be forced to no i don't believe they should.

I think the R&A are doing the right thing, I don't think the Open championship should associate its's self with Muirfield or any club that overtly restricts is membership based on sex.

Do it think the members will give two hoots about not hosting the Open any more - nope more playing days for them.

Ultimately does the R&A loose out with the loss of Muirfield from the line up, i don't think so. My opinion of the course is that while it is beautifully maintained it has not kept pace with modern day golf, the course is short by modern standards, the only thing that makes it difficult is the rough which is monstrous and that it is narrow. When the wind blows this makes it a fantastically difficult challenge but when calm scores in the low 60's are shot.

Actually now I've read the thread, you guys are right. It's important that we allow these poor guys to preserve their imperilled culture.

jambalaya - Member

No problem if they did so for example by only allowing Muslim or Christian members.

How about if they did it by only allowing atheists, agnostics, and every other religion apart from judaism?

I think gay men should be allowed to have places where they can mingle undisturbed by women.

But seriously, in this day and age?

The simple way to keep everyone happy is to have legislation that allows them to have their no women policy, but prevents them from adding new members. With a grandfather clause like that, they'll wither on the vine.

I'm not sure where all the angst is coming from. There are lots of women-only sports clubs around. I'm sure they're not [i]all[/i] full of lesbians.

And The Open - when's the last time you saw a woman teeing off with the men?

I had to go to Muirfield to quote for air conditioning for the open (The yearEls won in a play off) , i'd have to say it is without a doubt the snobbiest establishment I've ever been to. Great decision by the R&A in my opinion , Golf should be for the masses both male and female.

Their members have voted so democracy prevails accept that.

I struggle to see how a vote where a majority 64% voted for lifting the ban, but it doesn't get lifted, is particularly democratic.

Because those are the democratic rules of the club, higher majorities for changing constitutions are pretty common, even in the politics, because they tend to be fundamental changes.

I don't have a problem with the decision, it is their club, their asset and they have the right run it as they see fit. The reason people get upset is because it occupies a special place in the game by hosting the Open - once that has gone, can't see the problem.

However, I do disagree with THM re R&A. Despite hiving off the rule making bit to a separate company, it still occupies a central role in the sport by association and you can't have that now. If the R&A wanted to remain single sex, it should have removed itself completely from the running of the game.

And The Open - when's the last time you saw a woman teeing off with the men?

I think I'm right in saying that The Open Championship is open to both male and female whereas the Ladies Open Championship is not open to men.

In a way i feel sorry for the 60+% members who were in favour of women joining who are now being called dinosaurs etc yet wanted the club to take the forward step...saying muirfield is a golf club is pushing it a bit, it's a lunch club with the (in)convenience of a golf course attached.

Because those are the democratic rules of the club, higher majorities for changing constitutions are pretty common, even in the politics, because they tend to be fundamental changes.

Albanach - Member

In a way i feel sorry for the 60+% members who were in favour of women joining who are now being called dinosaurs etc yet wanted the club to take the forward step.

Aye, me too. So many people saying "they voted against it" and ignoring the detail.

I understand how a super majority vote works but it seems very cynical. Especially at a time when the country has recently and will recently vote on pretty fundamental issues such as the independence of Scotland from the rest of the UK, or leaving the EU, on a straight majority vote. This bunch of old duffers requiring a super majority vote on a pretty straightforward subject makes them look out of touch with reality.

Thems are the rules. Lots of sports have such rules, the Premier league in Scotland for instance requires an 11-1 vote for constitutional change, the football league in England requires 65 of the 72 teams IIRC.

English premiership? well that just requires a couple of billion and they'll roll over and let you tickle their undercarriage...

Another factor in the vote is that at present, members wives are allowed to play (at certain times I'd imagine) for free. A lot of the miserable auld buggers would vote against so that they wouldn't have to pay for their wives too.

Thems are the rules.

I won't disagree.

edit - and golfers wear white belts, how can you trust a man in a white belt that isn't a BeeGee?

Interesting responses. Funny enough, they were talking about it on the radio on the drive home last night and people were giving both sides of the story.

I agree that there is no place for it in this day and age but I am also surprised that there can we woman only things for the same reason. If you think there is no such thing, look here for example -

https://www.google.com/#q=ladies+only+gyms

https://www.bikeparkwales.com/Wome n's-Weekend-2016-Sunday-10th-

It's just embarrassing really, it's like the modern world never happened. Glad they've had the Open removed, and pity they can't be hit with a bigger penalty.

Its a private club and its their decision, and as posted above the decsison was by a wafer thin margin.

@Northwind, you can't so that (everyone except) but thats not what I was saying and not what religious organisations do. If you have a Christian Club its reasonable that you have to be Christian to join. Muirfield is a gentlemans club, for men.

TMH do most clubs these days still have a ladies day once a week and can't pkay on the other days ?

I have been to a few ladies pro tournaments, great to watch and a very high standard but I have to say the "average" lady player versus the "average" male player is quite a different game and having the two sets on a course at the same time is not a positive in my view. I can see the Muirfield logic

@hooli women want to be seperated from men but it be there choice. I totally get why women would want a ladies only Alps trip / bike park day. Gym. Are we saying that should not be allowed ?

Its a private club and its their decision, and as posted above the decsison was by a wafer thin margin.

The only good thing about these threads are all the neanderthals stuck in the 70's [ possibly 1870's] self out themself.

Just because "thems the rules", doesn't mean the rules can't be out of touch with reality.

The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.

It's just embarrassing really, it's like the modern world never happened. Glad they've had the Open removed, and pity they can't be hit with a bigger penalty.

What is the problem with men wanting to socialise with only men, and women likewise, isn't the idea in modern life that there should be choice?

The 60% who voted to include women could vote with their feet and leave to join an alternative club that has a 21st century attitude.

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I totally get why women would want a ladies only Alps trip / bike park day. Gym. Are we saying that should not be allowed ?

Me too when I see comments like this.

I have to say the "average" lady player versus the "average" male player is quite a different game and having the two sets on a course at the same time is not a positive in my view. I can see the Muirfield logic

Well said Drac

The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.

I do agree we should want more for "constitutional change" but 2/3 is setting it a little high considering we get a govt on 1/3 of those who actually vote or 25% ish of those who can

Its hard to argue we should respect the minority view imagine they have had say 20 votes against but never reaching that threshold.

It's just humiliating for the "sport" of golf IMO, putting another nail in its own coffin.

Makes the recent BC outrage looks like a fuss over nothing (not that I'm saying it was).

What is the problem with men wanting to socialise with only men, and women likewise, isn't the idea in modern life that there should be choice?

Nothing, but you are adults and can do it in the same room without there being issues. You regularly see groups of solely men or women out socializing in pubs, cafe, restaurants etc.

What is club worried about that women might do? Is it that women will start talking about knitting or that the old boys they won't be able to look at porn on the big screen?

I don't get the desire to be segregated. Every now and then I get asked if I want to go and join a ladies' cycling club or a ladies' MTB skills course, or a ladies' only MTB ride. I'm perfectly happy with the mixed cycling club I'm in thanks, I have lots of good friends there, and I've been on a skills course where I was the only woman and it was fine. No one was posturing or being macho, and no one was applying lipstick mid-ride either 😀

Dragon - so you want to impose an even heavier penalty on a private club making its own decisions. Wow, that some ethical standard

Jambas - to the best of my knowledge, and the irritation of many ladies, no that has gone. To pander to the PC masses, ladies have lost their exclusive days and had their fees doubles or at least increased significantly - but at least they have equal rights and their lives have been enriched

Mefty - there is no problem. It makes a lot is sense hence why single sex clubs have existed for a long time

Still enjoying woman's hour (no really) on the car radio now!!!!

As I understand it, the Open is going to be held at Troon this year. If the R&A are now so forward thinking why have they allowed this to continue when Troon still remains men only? Changing now might be a pain but the R&A have had a couple of years to sort this.

Anyone familiar with 'traditional' type golf clubs would know that women are generally discriminated against (as are juniors) even if members. However, there does seem to be a certain degree of acceptance from (older) women golfers that "this is how it is". Maybe its a generational thing.

Mefty - the R&A is a multi functional organisation - a golf club; the Championship Ctte; and the administration of the game. Your argument may apply to the latter two but not IMO to the first

Good points Vicky, each to their own...

The reality is that you have a super majority to protect from fundamental change with which a significant minority disagree - a very sensible system.

The only good thing about these threads are all the [s]neanderthals stuck in the 70's [ possibly 1870's].[/s] handwringers self out themself

Ad hominem
Straw man
In
Before
The
Lock

Still a result eh, golf loses the best Open venue. Progress

As I understand it, the Open is going to be held at Troon this year. If the R&A are now so forward thinking why have they allowed this to continue when Troon still remains men only? Changing now might be a pain but the R&A have had a couple of years to sort this.

so you want to impose an even heavier penalty on a private club making its own decisions. Wow, that some ethical standard

It all depends on whether their "ethics" are sexist and or discriminatory though doesn't it. Where they exist to oppress folk then no they are not ok. What part of this are you struggling with?
What if they made it white only - would you support it? Essentially there will be come ethics that you would not support so its just about whether its ok to discriminate against women rather than whether its ok for clubs to make their own rules. You know this though and are just obfuscating.
I get it that some members on here are comfortable with discriminating against folk. Its just a shame they have not seen that this is no longer acceptable.

I don't get the desire to be segregated. Every now and then I get asked if I want to go and join a ladies' cycling club or a ladies' MTB skills course, or a ladies' only MTB ride. I'm perfectly happy with the mixed cycling club I'm in thanks, I have lots of good friends there, and I've been on a skills course where I was the only woman and it was fine. No one was posturing or being macho, and no one was applying lipstick mid-ride either

This is pretty much what I was getting at.

There is a lady who joins our regular night. So far, I have managed to not molest her or expose myself. She cycles at roughly the same pace as the rest of us and is good company. I see no issue with it and nor does she or she would have left.

Imagine if BPW did a men only weekend? It certainly wouldn't get the same reaction as a ladies only weekend.

This is getting away from the golf course a bit but I guess what I am trying to say (badly) is - what is happening in a lot of situations is not equality but positive discrimination. A certain amount of positive discrimination is fine as is puts some balance back where there was negative discrimination but there will be a point where this has been done.

I have been self outed for a long time and am not embarrassed about embracing equality for all and attacking discrimination everywhere.

If you want to defend sexism then that is your choice - if this is "banter between mates" as you think all threads should be read then I think you are failing....badly as it just reads as somewhere between sexist and trolling 🙁

At least I mean what i say on here and dont do it for effect/reaction - not necessarily a good point and I am sure you can use that against me 😉

Troon are in consultation on it at the moment. I suspect if they voted to continue excluding women, the R&A would boot them out too.

That and women are allowed to be members but have their own club but on the same course. 😕

Cycling is a "male sport" and females are underrepresented in it
If we do "ladies only" to redress this balance and encourage them into the sport then that is a good thing IMHO.

If PBW was a male only club and women only allowed as our guests - would you think that would help our sport be more equal or would it hinder it?

Unfortunately we are still at a point where we need to do "positive discrimination" to get to the point where we all ride in mixed gender groups.

Its not a good sign and not something we should be proud of but it is a, probably sadly necessary, stepping stone to where we should end up.