[Closed] Muhammad Ali

Considering the decade he was born into and the death toll inflicted on a minority on mass,
i can understand the comments he made in interviews and various paths and groups he talked to.
i'd be damn angry too. Ali talked of the crimes of the 'White man' but he didn't hate on mass, his friends of the era would tell you that.

Actually it isn't imo, he was right to stand up to the white man. This was the white man who forced black women to give up their bus seats to them, this was the white man who banned black children from their schools, this was the white who lynched and left the bodies of innocent black men hanging from trees.

When Ali first became champ enforced racial segregation was still perfectly legal in the United States.

I think you two are pretty much in agreement really.

Would an American who renamed themselves Muhammad Ali become a national institution in a modern USA? The same USA who have made Trump and all his bile a presidential candidate.

As someone born too late to appreciate his most impressive sporting achievements live I'm still not sure what to make of Ali. A great figurehead for black rights but chose a dodgier group to represent. A showman of intellect and wit, but happy to be pretty derogatory of his opponents. And ended his days a walking talking (or not) advertisement for the consequences of his sport.

The interview I mentioned earlier is on bbc radio Scotland now. Mcilvanneys knowledge and gravitas is incredible. Get listening.

A showman of intellect and wit, but happy to be pretty derogatory of his opponents.

And he punched them in the face!

Btw there are nearly a million people with Parkinson's Disease in the US, most of them not former boxers, Michael J. Fox certainly isn't.

[i]And ended his days a walking talking (or not) advertisement for the consequences of his sport.[/i]

Your expert diagnosis eh? Where are all the other boxers, who took more punches than Ali with Parkinsons? As far as I know, my dad never took a punch in his life and he had Parkinsons when he died.
Leave this sort of shite for your private thoughts and respect a great man who died (or shut up). Cheers.

Are you seriously saying you believe there is not a fighting chance that boxing was the cause? Or naive enough to think that to believe it true would mean all would suffer the same fate or that there is no other route to suffering in the same manner. You'll be in a minority in thinking that and unsurprisingly many with far more medical knowledge that you or I are conjecturing in a similar fashion. So private thoughts or not it's what the vast majority are thinking.

I see no lack of respect in discussing his health for the last third of his life or the cause. It changes not a jot about what he stood for in his prime. I have absolutely no time for the prissy overtly positive bollocks often spouted at someone's passing - imo it's the very best time to properly reflect on their whole life, warts and all (not that there are many warts on Ali imo). I felt the same about my own father.

And ended his days a walking talking (or not) advertisement for the consequences of his sport.

Your expert diagnosis eh? Where are all the other boxers, who took more punches than Ali with Parkinsons? As far as I know, my dad never took a punch in his life and he had Parkinsons when he died.
Leave this sort of shite for your private thoughts and respect

See my first post, tis you who is talking shite here DebZ

It saddens me beyond belief that we can't have a "RIP" thread on here about anyone - anyone - without someone being unable to resist the urge to troll. Be a better person, tread softly, people are mourning. Ali had a dark side - he was in a dark business - but his compassion and integrity are beyond reproach. What a man he was, even more outside the ring than in - and he weren't bad in the ring.

Agreed Pondo.
They have nothing to say about him when he's alive, so can one be one reason for coming on this thread and talking shit and that's just to wind up the people who do care.

Aye, whatever.

without someone being unable to resist the urge to troll.

I can assure you I had absolutely no intention to troll. If what I have said has upset (and what I have said is nothing not said countless times in articles in the media over the years) I would snuggest skins are a little too thin for someone you have never even met.

Is there a time for that discussion? Absolutely. Is THIS the time? Not IMHO. It's not just Ali (although my skin with regard to him is thinner than it is for pretty much anyone else outside my immediate family), just seems like anytime anyone famous dies, there's a RIP thread and someone has to say "actually I think they were a bit of a ****t" or variations thereof.

My grandad was a bit of a racist but given the context I'm not going to judge too harshly, its even harder to condemn the anger of those that were repressed by the 'norm' of the time. Particularly those that stood up in front of the world and delivered that message at not inconsiderable risk to themselves. Pretty handy with it, too.

Rip Ali.
When I was a child my dad got me up to watch his fights I just remembered the hint of menace and vulnerability he had when facing what was thought a real powerful boxer in Foreman. But somehow he won. Could never fathom how he did at the time.
He could be vicious at times too, but oozed charisma more than any sportsman I ever knew.

STW at its worst on this thread. One of the most iconic figures in memorable history dies and it ends up in petty quibbling 🙄

Ali was a fantastic person, who achieved so much, but the sport that allowed him that platform robbed him of his health. To disregard this fact is ignorance, the very thing he stood against.

Goodd night and God bless Ali.

I dont think death absolves you of critism, however on a different note it struck me looking at the recent pictures, what a toll time takes on us, even allowing for for the boxing induced injuries Ali looked like an old man, like we will all look ( if we are lucky).
Who would see that young fella full of energy and vigour, ready to shake thre world in the old boy being spoon fed cake.

Something to think about perhaps.

Well that killed the thread.

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EDIT : That comment was 25 seconds too late

If ever the worlds doctors got together with a case for banning boxing he'd be exhibit A
Reduced to a shaking, dribbling mess for the last 30yrs of his life.
He and his hangers on chased the money/dollars with fights that were too much for him and his brain and he was the one that payed for it in the end.

If ever the worlds doctors got together with a case for banning boxing he'd be exhibit A

They might not all agree though.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/06/04/muhammad-ali-parkinsons/85399772/

Couple of things, really - firstly, his doctor is not sure that his Parkinson was caused by boxing (check the link below). Secondly, Ali himself was absolutely not a man for regret - if that's what god had lined up for him, so be it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/36454654

Any chance that we can move away from the idea that self-inflicted Parkinsons is the key point of Ali's passing?

I can't find who said this but I love it... Total paraphrase but,

"You and your buddies can talk about the greatest ball player... Probably it's Babe Ruth, maybe it's Mays, maybe you say it could have been Mantle... You can argue about the greatest golfer, whether it's Nicklaus or Woods... But when you say who was the greatest? Nobody's ever going to say anything but Ali."

Likes.

* likes *

I'm sure getting pummelled violently to the head year in year out like he was had no effect on his life after he quit boxing 🙄
The fact he ended up an incoherent and wobbly version of his previous self wasn't down to the fact that he constantly took violent head punches chasing the last few dollars he possibly could....

Any chance that we can move away from the idea that self-inflicted Parkinsons is the key point of Ali's passing?

Indeed. As an interesting footnote apparently not everyone can catch leprosy, or at least susceptibility to leprosy requires a certain genetic makeup. The genes which make people susceptible to leprosy are the same ones that people with the genetic form Parkinson's disease have.

The point I'm making is that unless there is someone on here who is better informed than the professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School who met Ali several times and said [i]“It’s bad luck on top of genetics”[/i] then there's really no point discussing the issue, and focusing instead on Ali the boxing legend would seem to be more sensible.

Best HW boxer in my lifetime by some distance is Evander Holyfield but tbh that feels a bit a like saying who is your best porn star.

Ali was a bit different, a good boxer on a political mission you may or may not agree with. As per my earlier post I disagreed with many of his views but who the **** cares what I think.

I'm sure getting pummelled violently to the head year in year out like he was had no effect on his life after he quit boxing  
The fact he ended up an incoherent and wobbly version of his previous self wasn't down to the fact that he constantly took violent head punches chasing the last few dollars he possibly could....

Pondo sorry to burst your bubble but Ali chased the money, well his hangers on did, google the rumble in the jungle in Zaire.... he wasn't a saint like you or lynch believe.... he was fallible like most humans are and not perfect..... he ended up a dribbly mess because of him and his management taking too many fights to chase the dollar and taking way too many punches past his prime... the fact you can't handle those truths isn't my problem

I would, as I have repeatedly, ask whether this is the right time to discuss this crap.

I can certainly think of a few reasons why some of STW's pet racists might not have liked him too much. And that makes him even more of a dude in my book.

bloodynora - Member

Pondo sorry to burst your bubble but Ali chased the money, well his hangers on did, google the rumble in the jungle in Zaire.... he wasn't a saint like you or lynch believe.... he ended up a dribbly mess because of him and his management taking too many fights to chase the dollar and taking way too many punches past his prime...

Everything about this is awesome. Of course he chased money, he was a professional. Do you work for free. Google the rumble in the jungle? Yes, I'm sure this thread is full of people who've never heard of the rumble in the jungle and need to google it. Not a saint? Why should he be? Are we only allowed to admire saints? Like Pondo and Ernie believe? Nothing they've said suggests they think he was a saint. And of course, there's no proven connection between his condition and his career.

But most of all,

bloodynora - Member

the fact you can't handle those truths isn't my problem

Yep, you clearly have a problem, and that is not it.

Good point Deadly. It's worth remembering that the last remaining people who were born slaves in the United States didn't die until the 1960s, and certainly there were still many people whose parents were born slaves.

Some of the people responsible for the institutionalised and perfectly legal discrimination of black people with regards to education, housing, transport, education, health, etc, would have been the grandchildren, if not children, of slave owners.

You can imagine their hatred of Ali and his boast of being the Greatest.

I can see why the Professionally Offended like darsy don't like Ali taking critcism, they don't like to hear the truths about their idols or cult figures...... he ended up a brain dead mess because he and his entourage chased the money/dollar simple as that.

I just saw a clip where Ali's wife was asked a question and he said she only speaks when he lets her!
But, you idiots! I knew this about him, I knew he had a mistress in Ziare while his wife was at home, I knew he said bad things about Joe Frazier, I knew his racial politics were confused, I knew he was a flawed character who hit people for a living.
You aren't going to teach me anything (and nor is ****ing Google) that will stop me thinking he is the greatest boxer I've ever seen and being in absolute awe of the man. And being sad at him dying.
And I won't be taking down the picture of him I have up in my kitchen! 🙂

His boxing, gift for the gab and resulting fame gave him the power to change his country and the world we live in. He used that power well IMO.

Its funny, you mention "pet racist" and bloodynora turns up insulting people. 😆

Beetlejuice.
Beetlejuice.
Beetlejuice!!!

a bit late to the party but i'll throw my tuppence in
it was his birthday on friday and it was sad to hear that he ended up in hospital on life support...i really wanted him to recover but that was me being selfish because i couldnt imagine a world without a guy like him...but i felt that if he was suffering the the suffering should end so he could finally be at peace.
it was my daughters 4th birthday the following day when he sadly passed away. i was stuck in between happiness for my daughter and overwhelming sadness for his passing. my wife felt the same and she actually was crying in bed when she read about his death.
to me the man was a legend...a hero...an inspiration...and now God has taken him back.
he was human and had his flaws but nobody is perfect...but the greatness about hi personality, his charisma, his warmth, the dignity with which he conducted himself, his courage far outweighed the flaws he had as a human.

yes there is the strong link between his illness and the shots he took to his head but i cant remember him ever attributing it to boxing or blaming boxing for it.

the only solace is that he passed away on the eve of Ramadan and that the gates of heaven be left open for him

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wilburt - Member
Best HW boxer in my lifetime by some distance is Evander Holyfield

Hmm. I've always had question marks over Holyfield. No doubt a great boxer, but I think his heavyweight record flatters to deceive.

Won the HW title from Buster Douglas who was crap in reality, with the exception of the once in a lifetime performance against Tyson and the circumstances around that fight
Beat an ancient Foreman
Beat an ancient Holmes
Lost to Michael Moorer, who then went on to lose to Foreman!
Beat the shell of Tyson and all the nonsense there
Lost to Lewis twice (despite what the judges said in the 1st fight)
Lost to Ruiz, one of the worst heavyweight champions I've ever seen
Pissed away his legacy by carrying on far too long and taking beatings from very poor fighters

Then on top of that he was roided off his head ("evan field" scandal)

Exciting fighter, and the Bowe trilogy was great, but not a great heavyweight in his own era ("peak" Tyson would have dispatched him, Lewis beat him twice, Bowe beat him twice)

Wilburt did end his post with: "who the **** cares what I think"...

Pissed away his legacy by carrying on far too long and taking beatings from very poor fighters

It's hardly uncommon for fighters to stay on too long, look at the end of Ali and Tyson's careers.

dragon - Member
Pissed away his legacy by carrying on far too long and taking beatings from very poor fighters
It's hardly uncommon for fighters to stay on too long, look at the end of Ali and Tyson's careers.

Holyfield had to drag on his career because he has 11 kids to 6 different women 😯