[Closed] MP claims homeopathy can cure Autism.

Chinese have been using alternative medicine for many centuries. In most cultures in Asia its recognised on an equal footing if not superior to "Western" medicine. The fact is plant remedies have been used and have worked for 1000's of years. A lot of Western medicines are based upon studies of the effectiveness of plant remedies, searching out the active ingredient.

and that's why the tiger, and the rhino, and the etc. are heading for extinction.

Chinese medicine can also jump down a well.

What's the difference between alternative and complimentary?

My patient with an incurable brain tumour a few years ago who saw a private specialist in London and was told to take carrot juice rather than chemotherapy was not helped by alternative therapy. Even though he kept going with his palliative treatment it prevented us from supporting his wife and young family as well as we would have liked at their time of greatest need.
[b]Because he was lied to about the effectiveness of the treatment by someone with a pecuniary interest in him having that treatment. [/b]
Given false hope and not allowed to plan for death.

If alternative or complementary therapists are honest about the effectiveness of their treatments, I'm fine with that.

Chinese have been using alternative medicine for many centuries.

That's not quite the same as homeopathy.

There are hundreds of plants that contain chemicals that are effective for treating certain illnesses.

Homeopathy is just bad shit mental and anyone who believes in it is also bat shit mental.

Chinese have been using alternative medicine for many centuries. In most cultures in Asia its recognised on an equal footing if not superior to "Western" medicine. The fact is plant remedies have been used and have worked for 1000's of years. A lot of Western medicines are based upon studies of the effectiveness of plant remedies, searching out the active ingredient.

When an alternative medicine can be shown to work and is properly tested then it simply becomes "medicine".

See also: aspirin.

There are hundreds of plants that contain chemicals that are effective for treating certain illnesses.

Bingo.

Let me try and untangle the logic bomb that seems to consistently evade the woo-woo brigade and other hard-of-thinking types. Here's Cougar's Top 10 "why it's bollocks" points:

1) Being ancient does not prove efficacy. We spent centuries burning witches, doesn't mean we were right. "We've always done it this way" is the worst reason to do anything.

2) Being popular with the masses does not prove efficacy. Plenty of things are popular with the masses, take One Direction for example. The masses, broadly, are stupid and an unreliable judge of anything.

3) Correlation does not equal causation. I've just had a cold, so I ritualistically slaughtered a toad in my back garden and you know what, just a week later my cold had totally gone!

4) Related to 3), anecdotes are not evidence. The Placebo effect is powerful and many people misunderstand what it means.

5) Of course, [i]some[/i] Chinese Medicine may well work. For instance, the Chinese might grind up some willow bark and make it into a nice cup of tea to make your headache go away, whereas in the West we'd pop a couple of Aspirin. Do the Chinese know something we don't? No, because they're both ostensibly the same thing, a derivation of salicylic acid.

6) Western medicine looked at Chinese medicine. We tested it, kept the bits that work, threw the rest away, calculated accurate dosages and regulated the industry.

7) It's not better because Natural if it's the same active drug, it's the same thing in a prettier wrapper.

8 ) You cannot extrapolate that because something works, it all does.

9) "Fewer side effects" is a smoke-and-mirrors claim. By that argument the best course of action is to do nothing, no side effects at all then!

10) There is no such thing as "alternative medicine." There is "medicine" and "not medicine."

See also: aspirin.

Jinx! I hadn't read that before I typed that post, honest.

Its rather worrying the shit folk will believe

then again, given he is a tory, we know his judgement is fundamentally flawed 😉

(Not the best quality)

homeopathy is a cheap and safe way of sending these cretins mis-guided folk away happy, and occasionally even 'cured'.

Yep. As a legalised cheap placebo it is probably useful.

Though I did laugh when one of the pro-homeos on the comments section pointed to a BMJ article about the huge amount of money that homeopathy saves the NHS as conclusive "evidence" that it works. 😆

It seems the pro-homeos have some difficulty separating cause and effect.

Well done cougar, condensing the antiwoo into 10 decent rules.

a quick google tells me what woo is and now I feel all knoweldgable.

GrahamS - Member

Yep. As a legalised cheap placebo it is probably useful.

Though, generally more expensive than the real unreal thing. (if you want to make a homeopathic placebo, do you have to add [i]more[/i] of the active ingredient?)

Homeopathy can't cure anything - but it can keep some very strange and possibly disturbed individuals off the streets. A bit like religion. (I won't call either of these thing's a mental illness - 'cause that's not nice)

(if you want to make a homeopathic placebo, do you have to add more of the active ingredient?)

Nah, you make it exactly the same but you don't tap it on the right sort of leather so that it doesn't have a memory.

Homeopathy does work

It works as well as most other placebos, which is almost unanimously better than no treatment at all. Anyone with a decent understanding of the process will understand that that's not the same as saying it works as well as other forms of treatment which have been developed, or is a suitable alternative for 'conventional' treatment

But to say that homeopathy does not work is just scientifically wrong!

[i]But to say that homeopathy does not work is just scientifically wrong! [/i]

it'll work as well as a placebo for autism, certainly.

it'll work as well as a placebo for autism, certainly.

It works as well as any other drug for autism 😉

Sorry, homeopathy does not work, palcebos work. If you want to say homepathy works because its as good as a placebo then absolutly anything works in your "scientifically" paradgim.

according to wikipedia... " In October 2009, he told Parliament that blood does not clot under a full moon"

someone give him a small papar cut under a full moon!

[i]someone give him a small papar cut under a full moon! [/i]

he's going to be a clot whatever phase the moon's in 😉

From the MPs wiki page (credit to docrobster for mentioning it)

In October 2009, he told Parliament that blood does not clot under a full moon; a spokesperson for the Royal College of Surgeons of England warned his colleagues would "laugh their heads off" at the suggestion.[10] In the same debate, Tredinnick characterised scientists as "racially prejudiced".[9]

advocating that astrology be integrated into the National Health Service (NHS).[13] In 2014 he told MPs: "I am absolutely convinced that those who look at the map of the sky for the day that they were born and receive some professional guidance will find out a lot about themselves and it will make their lives easier."[14]

Tredinnick's views have attracted criticism.

Wow, is that what we're reduced to, picking apart half of a statement? Is that really the big issue here?

The fact is simple: "Homeopathy is not efficacious beyond placebo."

Good? Good. Christ, some of us could have an argument in an empty room.

he told Parliament that blood does not clot under a full moon

WTF?!?!?

Has he not noticed the distinct lack of thousands of people bleeding to death every 29 days?

Cougar, I think some are just having fun lampooning him now.

I'm going to project "top Gun" through thousands of Gallons of water and make a Homoerotic remedy.

dbcooper - Member
Sorry, homeopathy does not work, palcebos work. If you want to say homepathy works because its as good as a placebo then absolutly anything works in your "scientifically" paradgim.

Except...Some placebos work better than others!

So the question is, do placebos work beyond placebo?

I read the title as "MP claims homosexuality can cure Autism"

I immediately had visions of the DM readership's heads exploding 😆

If diluted even more into a much larger volume, it might have a beneficial effect for dehydration.

So the question is, do placebos work beyond placebo?

Only if you dilute them in the right way.

Some placebos will work better than others but that will depend on the subject and their beliefs/expectations (eg if they believe that a red pill will work faster than a blue pill, even if they're both placebos, that's what they are likely to perceive.

So the question is, do placebos work beyond placebo?

If there is a internal mechanism for placebo based on suggestability (perhaps), then I suppose that a woo-woo laden placebo 'may' be more effective in certain people who are pre-disposed to believing that kind of shit.

In the absence of effective conventional medicines for certain conditions, perhaps giving their brains a dose of mystical codswallop would be the best approach...GPs could send out a diagnostic questionnaire asking if the patient believes in astrology/crystal healing/democratic accountability/England's chance of winning the next World Cup etc to assess their level of gullibility and naivety...

I wonder if the rise in distrust of conventional medicine among a section of society has a negative effect on any white-coat placebo that those patients might have been getting?

Placebo is fascinating. 🙂

I read the title as "MP claims homosexuality can cure Autism"

That's a few of us buggered then!

..GPs could send out a diagnostic questionnaire asking if the patient believes in astrology/crystal healing/democratic accountability

Have you mastered the blank glazed expression 😉

There's usually no need. They tend to let us know....

You can just have a 'suggestible idiot' code to input onto their patient record then. Like an updated version of NFN or TEETH written on the notes.

Where do probiotics and the treatment of gut flora fit into the homeopathic spectrum?
There have been studies undertaken that suggest intense antibiotic use in children may be a cause of autism due to the removal of 'good bacteria' from the body.
Addressing abnormal gut flora may be considered by some as a plausible treatment.. perhaps this was what sparked his suggestion?

Have you mastered the blank glazed expression

Addressing abnormal gut flora may be considered by some as a plausible treatment.. perhaps this was what sparked his suggestion?

Some propose fecal transplants and bleach enemas as autism treatments too. He is just cuckoo woo woo.

PS to all you rationalists and pro science types. You should consider making a donation to the Good Thinking Society who are forcing judical review of local Clinical Commisioning Groups who spend NHS money on homeopathy and other woo.
I feel strongly about this, if you do too, for the price of a round in the pub you can make a difference. (or less if you wish)

https://www.justgiving.com/Good-Thinking-Society-Appeal

Just caught this thread. Piss currently boiling. Please point me towards the cretins, I have a need to let them recognise their own failings.

That's a few of us buggered then!

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Awhiles, I have some sympathy with your position, we do over medicalise what aren't medical problems at all.

Social issues-debt, poor housing, domestic violence, family breakdown, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, childhood abuse, executive stress, status anxiety, etc all conspire to present people with problems that aren't diseases in the medical sense. Society's solution is to send them to see me, the GP.

My preferred solution would be to look at the cause of their problems rather than support an industry whose main method of operation is to hoodwink people into believing that the can be cured by quackery.
And yesterday I gave the parents of a troubled kid a leaflet for a (non nhs) provider of alternative therapies, relaxation, reiki etc, because there is nothing else I can do about the fact that dad left 4 years ago and doesn't send a card at birthdays etc.

so yes it's a problem.

and social prescribing may be (part of) the solution?

Gotta be a better road to go down that water-with-a-memory anyway...

Anyone remember the Horizon homeopathic pharmacology experiment?

Wouldn't it be enough if just one of us remembered all of it in the past, but now only remembered a bit of it?