so , a problem is vastly exacerbated due to govt policies, the answer to such problem is enforced labour --sounds very fascistic to me.....
Maybe rather than concentrating on work schemes for the small percentage who are long term unemployed / unemployable the Job Centres should be made to do what their name suggests, become a centre for jobs. The majority of people who are unemployed are back into work within 12 (often very painful and demoralising) months, and often not into a job utilising their skills and expereince fully. The problem is often not lack of jobs but getting the right candidates to the right interviews. This is massively costly and frustrating from both an employee and employers perspective. The majority of jobs advertised through the Job Centres are low skill / low paid. The more skilled and managerial jobs are all advertised through the private sector which is pretty hit and miss. Maybe, just maybe if we got the Job Centres right, concentrated on the vast majority, no the parasitic few the whole expereince of finding a new job quickly could be improved.
Most employers don't even consider advertising through the Job Centres as the calibre of candidates offered is so low. Mind you the Job Centres aren't interested in the more skilled either, when I signed on last year I was told I was a 'light touch' candidate, when I asked what that meant I was told we can't do anything for you.
Mind you it's pretty typical of most government services, ignore the needs of the majority (who put something into the systems) to concentrate on the no hopers who just take. The only alternative is the private sector (recruitment agencies etc.) who do a better, but still poor job of matching candidates with vacancies.
Edit - I quite like the idea of punitive workfare but other than making me feel more self righteous and less tax abused I don't actually think it will address any of the underlying issues we have in the employment market but it will suck in massive resources to make it not work properly.
stumpyjon--
--- are you for real ?the problem is not the lack of jobs
you show your empathy there--you like the idea of punitive workfare-- as long as its not you eh......
I was chatting to my old man last night about this whole thing. He reminded me about when he got made redundant at 55 from a senior managerial job in the HE sector, I must have been about 21 at the time, so 14/15 years ago.
He couldn't find a job of similar calibre at the time, but understood the importance of taking a job - any job - to fulfill his obligations as a family man and pay the mortgage and feed us. So he worked nights in a Currys warehouse, shifting washing machines & fridges etc. Proper heavy, hard physical labour, way below his skill level and some would argue probably a bit physical for a 55 year old - but he understood his duties as a man and took the job.
What we seem to see at the moment (and I am talking in real life and on several comments here) is that people expect to be able to pick and choose. Maybe I am of a different mindset (my family is of mixed immigrant background - Irish/Portugese gypsy who always moved to where the work was back in the day) but I believe you have an obligation to take work, any work, if it is available. But how we create that mindset on a national scale is not something I have the answer for.
unbelievable --pick and choose--what are you on about --andyrm--i see so everyone should take any job, irrespective of anything-- even if that scenario was enacted --There Are Not Enough JOBS -- 🙄
What we seem to see at the moment (and I am talking in real life and on several comments here) is that people expect to be able to pick and choose.
It's not quite that. The issue is that you might end up stuck in that menial job unable to go to interviews etc for better jobs, where you can contribute to the economy better.
andyrm - I think you're delusional. Or just believing what you read in te press. I do think there's a small element in society that has some culture of entitlement, that thinks that they can pick and choose. But I'd say they're more at the top level of earners, if anything. The children of the rich. And a tiny minority on benefits who think they're too good to work.
Cold, harsh reality dictates that the other 99% of the population has to take whatever it can get. For exactly the same reason as your dad. Do you somehow think its any different for anyone else with bills to pay today? Seriously?
And I speak from a similar experience myself there
It's not quite that. The issue is that you might end up stuck in that menial job unable to go to interviews etc for better jobs, where you can contribute to the economy better.
Good point there - as I say, I'm not claiming to have all the answers, just thinking from personal experience and things I see round me.
I know that in Bristol, every agency has windows full of industrial/warehouse jobs - not sure if they get advertised in the job centre as well, but I wonder how many people sign on with as many agencies as possible too? I did when I was made redundant at 23 - and took a factory job after a day, until I could find something better.
Perhaps (and again this is me thinking out loud) if the government set up something like a recruitment agency in place of the job centre, where you had recruitment consultants paid commission like in the private sector, it would help. In other words, they would have a financial interest to get people into jobs. Couple that with a centralised pool where it is free for companies to advertise jobs, that this new organisation could tap into for requirements and to place candidates.
As part of the new scheme, the jobs would be built round 4 12 hour shifts so that staff then had a free work day each week to attend interviews for something more suited to their skillset.
Or am I missing something? Anyone else got any other ideas how this could work?
I'm genuinely interested in this topic, having worked in recruitment earlier in my career and now as a hiring manager - we've never placed ads in the job centre.
andyrm - I think you're delusional.
Shame you have to resort to insults.
just out of interest andy--where /whom do you work--hiring manager sounds a bit vague--are you able to say ?
You think that's an insult? 😯
Based in Bristol, work for a tech startup that was acquired by a major telco last year. Currently about to advertise a number of sales roles (£35-40k realistic OTE) as part of phase 3 expansion plans - and my understanding is there will be a significant number of tech roles coming soon too 🙂
My email is in my profile if anyone thinks they might fit the bill.
🙂
Perhaps (and again this is me thinking out loud) if the government set up something like a recruitment agency in place of the job centre, where you had recruitment consultants paid commission like in the private sector, it would help. In other words, they would have a financial interest to get people into jobs.
I suggest you google the work programme tbh
I then suggest you google work programme fraud
By this i mean the companies lie and cheat to get their payments rather than to help out the unemployed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17476415
You are the current govt and I claim my £5 fraudulently
Couple that with a centralised pool where it is free for companies to advertise jobs, that this new organisation could tap into for requirements and to place candidates.
what like the Universal Job match website [ or the JC job points service] - that sort of thing they have doine for decades?
It is pointless as there are no jobs [ certainly not enough for all] and this is the basic problem
I don't want you to get upset, as you're clearly a sensitive soul, but you don't seem to have been [url= http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/02/22/work-programme-failure-finger-pointed-at-payment-by-results ]paying attention[/url]
The governments work programme is basically exactly what you're suggesting. The results have been far worse than if people had been left to their own devices. Its been an absolute shambles. And as JY pointed out, riddled with fraud
I've always found work when Ive been made redundant, sacked whatever, there are jobs out there, Ive worked in kitchens, packed boxes in warehouses, call centre, cleaner, lab work, whatever came up quickly at the agencies,
most of those jobs have led to better positions within the companies themselves.
And havent stopped me going for interviews, or applying for other jobs.
I never felt i had to keep myself unemployed in order to wait for a job of my standing, I have no standing, I just do what I can when I can.
to me its a matter of attitude.
I don't want you to get upset, as you're clearly a sensitive soul, but you don't seem to have been paying attention
Far from it mate. I'm one of the least sensitive and most emotionally level people you'd meet. I do however think it not unreasonable to expect a certain level of politeness in conversation, whether online or in person.
Hope that helps 🙂
I've always found work when Ive been made redundant, sacked whatever, there are jobs out there, Ive worked in kitchens, packed boxes in warehouses, call centre, cleaner, lab work, whatever came up quickly at the agencies,
most of those jobs have led to better positions within the companies themselves.
And havent stopped me going for interviews, or applying for other jobs.
I never felt i had to keep myself unemployed in order to wait for a job of my standing, I have no standing, I just do what I can when I can.
to me its a matter of attitude.
^^this is what I am taking about.
I know that in Bristol, every agency has windows full of industrial/warehouse jobs
They may not all be genuine jobs though.. in fact it could all be lies..
As for taking anything - last time I was out of work I tried to do a job for a two bit company in Hereford that strung me along for 4 months and basically gave me sod all. Once that was properly done for I got a temp job, warehouse work for a vanilla and mint distributors. It wasn't too bad actually - quite light work, nice and quiet, smelled fantastic, and there was a huge vat of hot liquid menthol in a special room which was brilliant to stick your head over and inhale deeply 🙂
I never felt i had to keep myself unemployed in order to wait for a job of my standing, I have no standing, I just do what I can when I can.
to me its a matter of attitude.
your right there are literally enpugh jobs to go round and the problem is attitude 😕
If the answers were as simple as some seem to think we would have no unemployed folk just motivational speakers instilling the right attitude which would somehow generate jobs
it does a diservice to people to suggest that everyone unemployed has the wrong attitude and to further suggest it is somehow their fault they have no work - simply we dont have enough jobs and if it was easy the work programme would be a massive success
But only 3.53% of people found a job for six months or more - missing the coalition's 5.5% target.
see even with fiddling they failed and even with experts the govt only expected 5 %
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20499836
You two could make millions if your solutions worked
You two could make millions if your solutions worked
Like I said, I don't claim to have all the answers - but was exploring ideas. There's got to be some kind of happy medium I guess, somewhere between total commoditisation of a workforce and the current system which is clearly failing.
I dont say there are enough jobs to go round, but I have always been able to find work at whatever level it needed to be, to enable me to earn some money.
and attitude is critical in my view when it comes to finding work.
and some of my jobs have been shit, and I mean shovelling it, but it paid a wage.
It's a competitive jobs market and there wont be any new jobs being developed en masse very soon, so the current unemployed need to face up to a harsh reality of getting competitive in the jobs market in order to get a job.
or live on benefits, it sucks at the bottom but you dont have to be there for ever.
race to the bottom sancho with that attitude
Clearly failing.. hmm
Well let's think about this.. any system is bound to have some aberrations, isn't it? Someone's always going to end up getting more than they need I'd think.
So the question is, what should your target be? Zero claimant cases getting more than they should? How do you decide how much they should get anyway? Post it on the Daily Mail website and see how many negative comments it gets?
How much money should we spend chasing the last few people who are making a killing? Cos if you don't make your money back it's not worth it, is it? Or is it?
If you cap benefits like they are doing now, then what happens when you have three kids and get accidentally pregnant with twins, say? Sure, it's your own fault for being careless - or is it? Contraception fails. And the twins and the other kids would suffer too wouldn't they?
so the current unemployed need to face up to a harsh reality of getting competitive in the jobs market in order to get a job.
or live on benefits
I think that's pretty much where we are anyway, isn't it? Maybe they could offer to work for a packet Wotsits, a dairylea dunker and a can of lemonade a day. That's going to make them more competitive than those bloody militants demanding £6 an hour!
race to the bottom rudebwoy I dont understand how you get that from my comments.
more a case of looking what you can do to get out of the position you find yourself in.
the cumbersome state is never going to be able to help everyone find work that needs it.
I do think there's a small element in society that has some culture of entitlement
yup, they're called the aristocracy
They may not all be genuine jobs though.. in fact it could all be lies..
I encountered quite a few job adverts that turned out to be an employer lining up a replacement as they where considering sacking a current employee.
andyrm - MemberWhat we seem to see at the moment (and I am talking in real life and on several comments here) is that people expect to be able to pick and choose.
Some people certainly do- I didn't just take the first job that was available, frinstance, I waited for a job more suited to my skills and experience and left the first job to someone who was more suited to it. Just sense really. As long as there is a choice, why not choose? When there is no choice, you can't choose.
But the issue isn't that there's only 1 job for every unemployed person and everyone's declining to take their 1 job. The issue is that even after the number fudging, even completely disregarding underemployment, 2.56 million people are unemployed, and that figure rose 70000 since the last set of figures went round.
"Picking and choosing" can explain why some people are unemployed when they might not have been. But that doesn't change the big picture as someone else takes the job.
"Picking and choosing"
Part of the problem I found with applying for work is an employers perception of how long you will hang about.
Often an employer doesn't want to hire the smart guy for menial jobs, they want to hire the guy that does the job and hangs around for years without causing any headaches like leaving for a better job.
Which is utterly bewildering in my case, I'm a bloody halfwit.
royal navy are well sort of submariners plent of well paid jobs, lad i know had his inteview on monday and has been told he will be going though basic training around oct.
shit job that pays well.
Do you know what the average age of an STW'er is?
I've always found work when Ive been made redundant, sacked whatever, there are jobs out there, Ive worked in kitchens, packed boxes in warehouses, call centre, cleaner, lab work, whatever came up quickly at the agencies,
most of those jobs have led to better positions within the companies themselves.
And havent stopped me going for interviews, or applying for other jobs.
I never felt i had to keep myself unemployed in order to wait for a job of my standing, I have no standing, I just do what I can when I can.
to me its a matter of attitude.
+1
In between jobs I wanted I've been a Freezer lorry driver in London,(hardest job I ever did,) worked in the Virgin mail post room, picked fruit, picked cabbages, been a labourer on site, worked behind the bar and as a glass collector. My attitude is I need money to live so I will go and earn it.
picked fruit, picked cabbages
Out of curiosity, how recently was this?
There are farms I know of that only advertise in two places, a notice board on the farm and eastern Europe. And everybody that gets a job also lives on the farm paying rent.
I made a good dozen (speculative) applications for work like this and never heard anything back from the Farms. I only found out what I did by stopping and having a chat with the Eastern European workers waiting at a bus stop.
In some respects I can see why some farmers do this, it's cheaper and they work bloody hard. Ultimately they need to compete.
To be fair knowing how crap my back is I wouldn't employ myself for anything that involves picking stuff up.
Was just googling for a news article ref a farm in Northants that was done for slavery and found this http://www.antislavery.org/english/campaigns/previous_actions/forced_labour_in_the_uk_2.aspx
Aleksander* a worker from Poland, was forced to work picking flowers in Scotland. He received only 4p per bunch picked, earning just £24 a day for a nine hour day. Huge deductions were made without his consent from his already sub-minimum wage earnings for accommodation and transport costs. He slept in a cramped room with eight other workers in accommodation which had only four toilets between 43 workers. He received a threatening letter from his boss stating that he was not free to leave before the end of his contract unless he paid £700, and if he did not pay the money it would be recovered from his family back home.
I have done all those as well. However I have recently spent 15 years at a graduate level job and wage which requires a post grad qual. Whilst factory work is not beneath me who exactly do you think would employ me to do this based on my cv?. I lack experience and it is obvious I dont really want to do this and will leave . There are also about 50other folk applying for this job many of whom will have experience etc.
It is a real eye opener to be unemployed in the current market and climate and it is blindingly obvious that unemployed is greater than vacancies by afactor of 40 ish. To keep telling us what we once did when it was good is to just try and suggest it us their fault rather than to accept there are not enough jobs.
If it was easy the work programme would expect greater than 5% success
Fruit picking was a common job where I grew up. It was only worth it if you'd grown up doing it and were incredibly fast. If any normal people went they'd be faced with backbreaking work all day and come back with maybe £3-£4.
The only jobs worth doing were the ones that were mechanised, cos you got paid by the hour. Potatoes and hops.
It was a real eye opener to be unemployed in the eighties, but I never went more than a week unemployed, I got whatever work there was, and applying for factory or other work I went through agencies so they just put you forward if you wanted to work.
You can apply for any job Sancho
Most unemployed people do apply for any job.
But they are applying for them with dozens to hundreds of other people.
Agencies books are very different now than to in the 80s. They have so many people on there books these days its unreal in comparison.
eg: http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/warehouse-cargo-handlers-needed-asap/22836846#/jobs/temporary
Bloody hell, job posted today and 100+ applications
Personally I think there is an expectation issue in the UK, people now expect to get well paid, have a great life and be successful, we're educated to expect great things.
These arent always possible.
Sometimes its opportunity, sometimes its education, sometimes its attitude and effort, but the gap between the expectation and getting the success can be mahoosive grand canyon for many.
Attitude towards this can vary depending on where you are, unemployed, generational unemployed, comfoprtable, rich, a right toff, whatever. We are responsible for making the best of the situation we end up in, not the government, not society. Its our own responsibility to do what you want with your life.
I get a bit sick of people knocking the better off, it seems trendy to knock them. rich bashing. buiness bashing. tax bashiong. call it what you will. Everybody is to blame as long as it isnt you.
Ha.
Sancho - The 80's? Is that what you're basing your experience on? Seriously? Different ballgame nowadays I'm afraid fella.
You may not have noticed. There aren't any factories left! And about a million more immigrants who will work for well under minimum wage. Plus an estimated 1.4 million people underemployed (part time but want to be full time), as well as the 2.6 million unemployed.
Chuck in all new positions being zero hours contracts, and I can assure you of this. If you went into the present jobs market thinking it was going to be as easy to pick up work as it was in the 80's, then you'd be in for a bit of a rude awakening, to say the least!!
It was a real eye opener to be unemployed in the eighties, but I never went more than a week unemployed, I got whatever work there was, and applying for factory or other work I went through agencies so they just put you forward if you wanted to work
as folk note that was then and this is now. times move on and change etc.
Locally factories wont employ you for more than a year as you get rights and if you have worked for them before you can never do it again so not really a long term option.
WHy do folk keep saying this/suggesting this that it is somehow their fault - no one has yet bothered to dispute the ovbvious fact that there are more unemployed people than jobs so whatever you say and whatever they all do there will be unemployed folk
Personally I think there is an expectation issue in the UK, people now expect to get well paid, have a great life and be successful, we're educated to expect great things.
Yes i recall the heridtary heir to the throne lecturing us on how people expect something from nothing
Not really sure what your point is tbh people should accept crap low paid jobs and be grateful?
We are responsible for making the best of the situation we end up in, not the government, not society. Its our own responsibility to do what you want with your life.
Both yes and no and also luck. the millionairres sons who was educated at Eton got a better start to make his life what he wanted than the son of a unemployed ex miner for example. Which situations do you think is easier to "take responsibility" for yourself?
If it is just down to us then the argument is govt does nothing so there would be no need to do any changes to benefits or economics or anything as it has no effect.
It is a mixture if many factors
I get a bit sick of people knocking the better off, it seems trendy to knock them. rich bashing. buiness bashing. tax bashiong. call it what you will. Everybody is to blame as long as it isnt you.
Have you failed to realise this thread is about bashing the unemployed and blaiming them for their situation - are you tired of that or just joining in?
considering there were more people unemployed back then I dont see how it would be that different as for factories, I have only worked in one factory, but Im not trying to knock anyone for how hard it is finding work, and have applied for jobs where there were over a hundred applicants regularly, been for multiple interviews for jobs and been through the mill, but I dont think its any harder now than it was then, and agencies are just the same they are pretty useless but you have to make sure you get put forward.
and there are loads of factories still, but yeah its different being unemployed its different now, what exactly is different?
when youre out of work its the same and getting back in to work is the same.
its up to you/me to get back to work when out of work and you have to make it happen for yourself regardless of time/era.
that is the same now as then.
and there are loads of factories still, but yeah its different being unemployed its different now, what exactly is different?
I'm sorry, but the jobs market now compared with 25-30 years ago is a competely different animal. As myself or JY, and others have explained.
You are aware that graduate employment is presently about 40%? Thats well-educated, qualified people who can't find jobs. ANY jobs. Unemployment in the under 20's is 25% plus? And they can legally pay them a lot less than you! But they can't find jobs either
I'd suggest that instead of your "I'm so hard-working and resilient, and rugged, and determined, I could get a job anywhere, anytime, within a day' attitude, that you seem to be basing on experiences 30 years ago, you instead look a bit closer at the reality. Though obviously you won't. You'll just keep repeating yourself
