I'm not sure objectification is outdated Metalheart.. it's so bleeding complicated 😕 I'm not convinced objectification will ever be pushed under the carpet and perhaps it shouldn't.. I am convinced we can progress to an equal society quite easily though.
Sorry to hear about your youngster.
What is lost by not having podium girls?
This is the key bit. Even Formula 1 managed to ditch this antediluvian practice some years ago.
The use of pretty Grid Girls isn't sexist, but it is vulgar and outdated.
Bringing in youngsters associated with the sport is more beneficial, imagine a tiny Lewis Hamilton presenting Senna with a garland.
This is the key bit. Even Formula 1 managed to ditch this antediluvian practice some years ago.
Another reason I hardly ever watch F1 anymore!
Rockape63 - Member
This is the key bit. Even Formula 1 managed to ditch this antediluvian practice some years ago.
Another reason I hardly ever watch F1 anymore
Lol that made me almost spit my tea out!
[quote=charliemungus]Why not? Can you not explain it?
[quote=3 fish]Care to try and figure it out yourself?
Hmmm! Challenge accepted! Right...
Women objectified based on physical attributes, largely for the pleasure of men
Women, 'choosing' to earn money by using those physical attributes.
Find both distasteful and think they are products of male hegemony, often justified by the fact of choice.
Nope, can't see a difference yet, maybe you can help now. Perhaps first tell me.if you think prostitution is OK, and explain
The day has finally come at the Santos Tour Down Under, with the state announcing its major events will no longer use women as decoration.
I think everyone should be treated equally so in sports everyone should participate regardless of gender or physical ability. No separation at all because that is discrimination.
Therefore, you should have men, women, steroid users and disable people etc competing in the same event.
The winner is the one that can beat everyone regardless of who they are.
Of course prostitution is okay 😕
Just because things have been skewed by male dominance for so long, it doesn't make those behaviours wrong. And yes choice is a fair justification. Progress must bring more open mindedness not more narrow minded behaviours.
Chewkw. I find the podium system slightly outdated, I would prefer the top 10 to be drawn from a hat at the end of the event as it's the taking part that counts.
theocb - Member
Chewkw. I find the podium system slightly outdated, I would prefer the top 10 to be drawn from a hat at the end of the event as it's the taking part that counts.
That's a good idea too then let them share the price money. 😀
STW earlier today ...
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DrJ - Member
STW earlier today...
Wat?
Hmmm! Challenge accepted!
You don't look as though you're really giving it much of a go.
maybe you can help now
No.
Perhaps first tell me.if you think prostitution is OK, and explain
At the risk of walking off down your cul-de-sac, I will respond. If by prostitution you mean a person charging another person money for sexual acts, then, yes, I do think it's OK. That some people exploit or coerce those who are desperate or feel forced into making such a choice, I do not think is OK.
I was going to let this lie but I'd rather not leave this thread with my opinions incorrectly explained by some one else. Although I have to describe an attempt to defend the status quo by sugestion that the rights of podiums girls needing defending as "herioc".
The Tour De France is the third lagest sporting event in the world and the largets annual sporting event. The issue, to me, is not about the exploitation of the girls on the podium. They probaly aren't exploited. I imagine them being in the last year of a phd and needing a bi of cash to get them through to the end before they star their careers as Astophysicists or whatever.
The Tour is male sporting event. Most sporting events are. That won't change and we are along way from a female version having equivalant status. IMHO it would be better if the media images were are all rather than the status quo which seems to be all male plus podium girls.
[img] https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dd44b5e4b0a4970a8b838e/t/5599a317e4b00f5f814335eb/1436132120731/ [/img]
The problem, which i have just added to, is pictures like this being a major part of the Tours media ouput. They contribute to a negative image of gender roles.
I'll confess that I had to have this pointed by a female colleague. But once it was pointed out it seemed pretty clear what the problem was.
The blonde on the right looks well fit.
Yep, third place clearly won. She's beautiful.
Im yet to see why beautiful people of either sex being paid to stand around and look attractive is sexist. I've no doubt that it isn't what we'd want for our sons or daughters but that says more about our prejudice about what counts as a worthy job as opposed to what is actually a denigrating role.
Also, as of yet, no one can give a good reason as to why they are the white knight s saving these girls from something they don't necessarily want to be saved from but are still doing the right thing.
Go on 3 fish give it a go, cos at the moment, you look like you don't know
I've no doubt that it isn't what we'd want for our sons or daughters
I dunno it would beat a zero hours minimum wage job all day long.
Use whatever you've got to get ahead, why not?
Go on 3 fish give it a go, cos at the moment, you look like you don't know
No man, that's you.
it's because they have nice teeth and tits.
True - largely
the women have no say in it,
Untrue
Personally, cant see why we need podium girls but that's for them to decide.
To add to my earlier comment - that I still stand by - I worked in marketing the the 70s and 80s. I've seen this crap and had thought it had gone apart from a few small holdouts.
Thursday a client asked for t-shirts with a company logo on. It appears that we will have 'totty' giving out stuff and doing PR in the new year.
I pointed out that the streets of England are not the place to be wearing a t-shirt in January. And the concept is 30 years out of date.
Totally ignored by the management. Their dicks are probably sooo hard thinking about choosing the girls.
Has anybody ever asked these podium girls what they think?
Has anybody ever asked these podium girls what they think?
This misses the point by a country mile.
The point is not whether the people who do it enjoy it. The point is that the custom of podium girls contributes to a culture, in sport and in wider society, where men are the heroic "do-ers" and the women's role is to just stand around looking pretty.
Podium girls don't offend me. Nor would I like to see them "banned". But I'd like the organisers of sporting events to make the free decision to end practices in which women are promoted as "eye candy" in male-dominated fields.
Maybe the podium girls could be replaced by plain looking middle aged women with nice personalities.
Tell you what. Why don't we ban the major cause of this crap? Women's magazines.
Also, as of yet, no one can give a good reason as to why they are the white knight s saving these girls from something they don't necessarily want to be saved from but are still doing the right thing.
I'll I can say is that to me and many other on here, they are good reasons.
PS get the picture on your phone and pass it round the staff room Monday lunch time. Ask people what they think. Ty and include a few women under 30. Of course they all might agree with you, but give it a go
Fascinating thread. 🙂
[url= http://www.prettydamnedfast.com/blog/2015/7/5/nopodiumgirls ]http://www.prettydamnedfast.com/blog/2015/7/5/nopodiumgirls[/url]
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[quote=charliemungus l]Go on 3 fish give it a go, cos at the moment, you look like you don't know
[quote=3fish]No man, that's you.
Actually, it's both of us. But given that that was my point,I'm happy that you provide support for it.
Thanks
This is getting silly now.
Who here thinks women have equality?
In an equal world, podium girls are no problem at all. But of course, for a lot of you guys, the world does look pretty equal, because you may never have faced real discrimination, therefore podium girls are just fun.
In an unequal world, where women can not even dream of achieving the same success or recognition as their male counterparts, podium girls are a personification and perpetuation of that inequality.
Actually, it's both of us.
No, you're either asking people (like me) to explain something you don't understand or trying to manipulate them to explain it for you by way of arguing with them. Well, I'm not doing your legwork for you - that's [i]my[/i] point. You must think I was born yesterday...
Not yesterday, but not much before. Nevertheless, it does look like it is something you cannot explain.
hebdencyclist - Member
Has anybody ever asked these podium girls what they think?
This misses the point by a country mile.
Why? Aren't they entitled to an opinion? Do you think because they are beautiful they don't have the intelligence to have a say in the matter?
Nevertheless, it does look like it is something you cannot explain.
etc.. etc..
Actual female person here. I cringe every time I see podium girls.
Also if I'm watching racing I want to see women race. Cyclocross in Belgium is getting it right - you get to see the women's race and the men's on Eurosport. Televisation has made a difference, ask Helen Wyman.
Road racing and road racing culture makes me see red. I had a go at it but you can't even race all the races in the calendar as a woman.
Also, I'm not shit. I could give most of you lot a run for your money in a 24hr solo. I never knew I had it in me until my 40s. Wish I'd been encouraged a bit more a bit earlier. Bah humbug.
If I had a daughter I'd be telling her to go for more! Not to be aspiring to be a podium girl. Aspire to be great. Your looks fade, but skill, training and determination you have for life. So yes, I think it's great to have young cyclists handing out the prizes. It's a chance to reinforce that inspiration.
Mmmm... men claiming it's ok to have women used as pretty objects. Ok, I'll believe you it's ok and ignore all the women around the world who have a major problem with it. What do the women know anyway...they're just good for looking pretty right... 🙄
In an unequal world, where women can not even dream of achieving the same success or recognition as their male counterparts, podium girls are a personification and perpetuation of that inequality.
fin25 - not really seeing it as inequality. More and more women are enjoying competitive sport but the numbers are still considerably less than men. I'm not convinced that you'll ever see an equal split, if that's what you're looking for.
Women aren't actually being exploited by dressing up as podium girls, thanks to Katie Price it has become the women who're doing the exploiting and importantly on their terms.
But if you start talking about body image and young girls then it's a different argument alltogether.
Why? Aren't they entitled to an opinion? Do you think because they are beautiful they don't have the intelligence to have a say in the matter?
Oh don't be stupid.
Cinnamon girl, you're right, I don't think that podium girls are necessarily being exploited, but their existence in sport is seen by many women as a bit of an insult, given the amount of barriers they may have faced. Things are rapidly improving though and huge progress is being made in women's sport, so much so that podium girls are starting to look a bit silly to a lot of people.
Totally agree with you on body image, but surely inequality plays a part in that too?
I think very few people are really thinking that exploitation of the individuals is the issue here. I would assume that the individuals are making a free choice to do this for money, knowing exactly what they're doing.
Equally, nobody is claiming that anyone will see a scene such as the above and say "Oh right, so that's how it works then, the men are th important ones and the women are there to do nothing except look pretty."
But in the context of there being so much crap like this around, and the historical (and current) inequality in roles and perceptions, it's an unnecessary contributor to the perpetuation of those unfair, unhealthy and also downright stupid ways of thinking.
To my mind this is a kind of casual sexism. As has been said before, in an ideal world it would be so trivial that it just doesn't matter, but we're still a long way from there.
Also, it must be really weird for the winners of women's races to stand next to podium girls!
Cinnamon girl, you're right, I don't think that podium girls are necessarily being exploited, but their existence in sport is seen by many women as a bit of an insult, given the amount of barriers they may have faced. Things are rapidly improving though and huge progress is being made in women's sport, so much so that podium girls are starting to look a bit silly to a lot of people.
Totally agree with you on body image, but surely inequality plays a part in that too?
What I'd really like to see is a 'code of conduct' whereby, for example, bosoms bursting out of frocks and thong flashing is outlawed. Common decency really.
Not sure inequality plays a part in body image but I do think self-esteem plays a huge part and that really needs addressed.
Oh don't be stupid
Yes I didn't really think I'd get away with such a basic effort. Ho hum.
😀
If the girls are happy then no one has any right to complain. Its not sexism, its capitalising and that's no problem. You don't have to watch thee podiums, surely just a waste of time. Its marketing and the sponsors want airtime. Presentations are dull so jazzing them up a bit keeps people watching.
To one of you above. Try being white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated. The most discriminated bunch out there.
Are you having a bit of a bad day?
Mattsccm, I am all of the things on your list and I'm lucky enough to have never been knowingly discriminated against in my life. I'd think if I was a member of the most discriminated against group in society, I might have noticed by now.
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, it can't be easy when you're white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated and still being discriminated against.
Open your eyes Fin, has your job not recently been taken by a black disabled lesbian? It happens all the time.
Nope, mine neither. Although I am a woman. So it might yet be. 🙄
Sure as hell find podium girls an anachronism that shows incredibly limited ambition for the human race. Getting young riders to give prizes is much better. I've heard many stories of kids being inspired by meeting their heroes.
To one of you above. Try being white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated. The most discriminated bunch out there.
Or try explaining discrimination to someone who is [i] white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated[/i] and see how it goes. Please feel free to list how you are discriminated against when people look at you, make assumptions based on your genitals or your skin colour, how people decide where you are from before you speak etc.
[quote=mattsccm ]To one of you above. Try being white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated. The most discriminated bunch out there.
Thanks for clarifying the merits of your contribution to this thread - in case there was still any doubt!
When my kids watch the Olympics, my daughters are inspired. What message do they get about my sport when they watch the Tour etc?
When my kids watch the Olympics, my daughters are inspired. What message do they get about my sport when they watch the Tour etc?
That they identify their strengths and then use those strengths to make their way forward in life. Maybe?
What message do they get about my sport when they watch the Tour etc?
Men are willing to pay for female attention 😉
Podium girls cost money.
Which rather begs the question: are the 'young cyclists' being used to replace the podium girls getting paid the same amount for doing the same job? If so, then the argument for saving the money and spending it on women's cycling is thus rendered totally redundant.
If not, then who's being exploited here?
Given it's in SA in school holidays then I think they will not run out of volunteers for that gig, like football mascots etc.
But what I really expect is that it will be a complete non event where people don't even notice that the "totty" is missing as it were. Hence proving it to be an outdated idea that should have died off years ago like picking your PA based on look not skills etc.
But what I really expect is that it will be a complete non event where people don't even notice that the "totty" is missing as it were. Hence proving it to be an outdated idea that should have died off years ago like picking your PA based on look not skills etc.
So where is this "totty" going to earn the same level of money that they do when they do the podiums?
The ones I have met are not the brightest and their "skills" are probably limited.
And where do we stop? Attractive sells and educated women choose to become models, actors, pop stars, etc. If my daughter decides that she can make a good living from her looks, then good luck to her. If that means ignoring a rather expensive education and she's come to a rational decision, then all the better.
A group of males deciding what is best for women? How about we let them decide?
Missing the point? It's not about depriving somebody of a job it's about why they are there. In this case the main event organiser couldn't find a good enough reason to employ models to hang around and hand out prizes like the majority of other sports. If you feel the need to pay somebody then put out a fair selection criteria that has equal opportunities. The job description is basically hold random prize object then hand to sports person waiting for photo leave. I'm sure they would be inundated with applications for the.
Missing the point? It's not about depriving somebody of a job it's about why they are there. In this case the main event organiser couldn't find a good enough reason to employ models to hang around and hand out prizes like the majority of other sports. If you feel the need to pay somebody then put out a fair selection criteria that has equal opportunities. The job description is basically hold random prize object then hand to sports person waiting for photo leave. I'm sure they would be inundated with applications for the.
Sorry, I thought this was about podium ornaments and equality, the sort of equality that lets the women decide.
Sex sells, right up from the street corners of Leeds to the biggest Hollywood blockbusters. And it's quite natural as well, I believe. Years of Attenborough documentaries have shown me how animals make themselves more beautiful in order to get a mate.
I'm all for talent being the decider, sometimes that talent is looks.
But what is it selling?
Sorry, I thought this was about podium ornaments and equality, the sort of equality that lets the women decide.
What are podium ornaments for?
(and as SA government will be an equal opportunities employer how could they specify women?)
The equality you speak of would probably be there if women were making the decisions, but they are not. The decision about who gets the job or who stands on the podium isn't being made by women.
So now we try the if they didn't want to they wouldn't take the job argument which is basically saying people will turn down work.
The real point is that the people running this spend a heap of cash trying to help people with body image problems and other conditions that are basically related to a very specific type of image being shown to young women (and men) as what is desirable. It's causing harm to people so they decided not to continue.
I'm all for talent being the decider, sometimes that talent is looks.
If you told me that the kid presenting the winner was the National Under 19's road race champion I reckon that would impress me and the riders more.
They say sex sells but here, what is sex selling? Who is turning up or tuning in or looking up the results just to look at a pretty girl? I'm not going to argue that it's suddenly justifiable if it improves the appeal of cross racing by 20% or whatever... But it doesn't, does it? It's just a load of pointless old cock.
That Breitling advert back on p1 just had me going, wtf was that? How does that sell a £5000 watch? Sexist or not, objectifying or not, it's also offensive as incredibly shit advertising.
I can see that in some situations it does work- like, frinstance, "booth babes"- people will take, post and print pics of a product with a pretty girl on top, who wouldn't necessarily bother if it didn't. That's pretty crap but at least it's serving a purpose.
And ffs, it's 2016, every manner of nudity and sexuality you can imagine, and lots you can't, is a click away. So who is still going phwoaarrr at brolly girls? Monks and 80 year old race organisers, I suspect.
[quote=captainsasquatch ]Sex sells, right up from the street corners of Leeds
Ah, I was wondering what it was you had in mind for your daughter.
This is about kids getting to give prizes to cyclists vs pretty women right?
Which will advance the sport more? Kids being excited, inspired and involved? Or middle aged blokes eyeing up the talent whilst women feel vaguely uncomfortable?
Which will advance the sport more? Kids being excited, inspired and involved? Or middle aged blokes eyeing up the talent whilst women feel vaguely uncomfortable?
None of the defenders of the status quo have answered that point.
This is about kids getting to give prizes to cyclists vs pretty women right?
Or is it about winners of races getting to look good by association with attractive women. Much as James Bond gets to look good in the same way.
Clover, spot on.
In sports where money is tight you don't see podium girls and young participants are used. It's great for up and coming kids, they go back to their clubs and spread the word.
I wonder at what level of money rolling in do the organisers think that it's time to buy in eye candy? Seems an odd decision nowadays and most likely stuck back with traditionalists, it's time they were gone.
Much as James Bond gets to look good in the same way.
well he needs all the help he can get as
Poor Bond the great victim of discriminationTry being white, male, married, no kids, straight, working, healthy, middle aged and educated. The most discriminated bunch out there
Its hard to tell what is homour on this thread and what is stupidity
Or is it about winners of races getting to look good by association with attractive women. Much as James Bond gets to look good in the same way.
'Cos of course, they didn't look good enough by merely winning? They need pretty women otherwise they look like losers?
'Cos of course, they didn't look good enough by merely winning? They need pretty women otherwise they look like losers?
Good point. Let's suggest to F1 drivers that they spray each other with Irn Bru, not champagne, as they look good enough already.
Poor Bond the great victim of discrimination
Its hard to tell what is homour on this thread and what is stupidity
However, a straw man is always easy to spot.
Nope not helping as still not sure if humour or stupidity oh and WHOOOSH
DrJ - MemberHowever, a straw man is always easy to spot.
What, like suddenly talking about James Bond? Because I tell you, that guy doesn't need arm candy to look good, all he needs is swimming trunks.
I've said too much.
Ah, I was wondering what it was you had in mind for your daughter.
Not cool or funny. 👿
but you just said you dud not have a problem with it
could one say you are cool with it as long as she is not ugly?I'm all for talent being the decider, sometimes that talent is looks.
Its not our fault you dont like your argument applied to your daughter and the point is to get you to generalise this feeling to all women not just her.
NB No offence meant and I agree that bringing up peoples children is clearly not acceptable/fair/reasonable and this is not my intention i meant it merely to highlight the point and could see no other way to do it- a thought experiment if you will. No offence meant
So in summary
Some men will see a podium girl and wont letch or perve over her
Some men will see a podium girl and will letch or perve over her
Some podium girls love the work
Some podium girls hate the work
Some women aren't bothered by podium girls
Some women are bothered by podium girls
Some kids wont notice the podium girls
Some kids will notice the podium girls
[quote=Junkyard ]NB No offence meant and I agree that bringing up peoples children is clearly not acceptable/fair/reasonable and this is not my intention i meant it merely to highlight the point and could see no other way to do it- a thought experiment if you will. No offence meant
Which is exactly why I brought it up - to be fair he did bring his daughter into the discussion and I was just quoting his words (I did consider making a similar point when he first mentioned not having a problem with his daughter exploiting her looks as I was wondering if he did have a line - but decided it was maybe a bit far until captain equated podium girls with the ones on street corners in Leeds). Again no offence meant, but it is something you need to consider if you think you really don't have a problem with the whole business, and you do consider it's all part of the same thing.
Ah, I was wondering what it was you had in mind for your daughter.
Nope. Nor is shovelling shit. But neither are morally wrong - just undesirable career choices.
But standing on a podium smiling is a desirable career choice? In which case where exactly do you draw the line between desirable and undesirable?
In which case where exactly do you draw the line between desirable and undesirable?
Somewhere between wearing a nice dress and getting an air kiss from a slighty sweaty cyclist in Paris, and giving some fat businessman a blow job in the back of a car in Leeds.
^ so... A bit of a fingering in Maidstone, then.