[Closed] More pregnancy conumdrums... more advice/thoughts invited...

iain1775 - the op asked for thoughts, not personal insults to be aimed at those people offering advice.

Do not blackmail her into having the child - that way lies disaster. I know a couple in this sort of situation - she got pregnant unexpectedly - He pressured her into having the child ( she would have aborted). 10 yrs on they are miserable and so is the child. Their relationship is on and off, she resents him for persuading her to have the child.

Do not let her blackmail you into agreeing to an abortion - that way lies disaster. I know a couple in this sort of situation - she got pregnant unexpectedly - she pressured him into agreeing an abortion (he would have keep the kid). 10 yrs on they are miserable. Their relationship is on and off, he resents her for persuading him to agree to the abortion.

This is my admittedly simplistic opinion...

If you have the child and your relationship breaks down then you all suffer - you, your wife and the child.

If you don't have the child and your relationship breaks down, you and your wife will suffer for a while but can move on to new relationships. Or maybe your relationship will survive and kids will become an option again in the future.

Come on Gnarman - its not possible - we will be walking 20+ miles camping out for 2 nights and carrying all our own kit - no child under about 12 could do that.

Funny if we spend a night away our girl stays with grandparents/friends and she has a great time and we do as well.

TBH, if you (as a couple) didn't want babies, why aren't you using contraceptives? Any way too late now huh?

[i]but I also don't feel it's right to terminate based purely on what I feel are selfish reasons.[/i]

TBH what other reasons are there? As others have pointed out, you can offer your opinion, but at the end of the day it's her body, y'know? and if she decides to terminate, then YOUR JOB is to make sure that she feels a) she can make those sorts of decisions, and b) to support her decision once she's made it. your job is not to offer her a veiled blackmail about risking your relationship. That's not to say you can't offer her your view, you can, but don't waterboard your view to the extent that she feels compelled to go along with what you want.

She's a person, she's not an extension of you, once she's made up her mind, after discussing it with you, then respect it, and support her.

scu98rkr - Member

Only she can make the decision - you can help. support, advise but its her decision about her body.

Am I the only person who does nt agree with this ?

There are a lot of people don't agree with this but they are simply wrong as you are.

Its her body and her right to choose - 100% Morally . legally and ethically.

Men have tried to get court injunctions to prevent their partners having terminations and failed every time.

she does not need your consent to have the termination.

imho it's selfish to have a baby

But I really feel for the OP - I contributed to his first post and he knows my views on termination when in a relationship but it sounds to me that, unless she has a quick change of mind, this relationship is destined to failure. The only possible solution I could suggest is to convince her to put off an abortion until the latest possible time so she has time to consider her options. But at the end of the day, if she really insists losing the child is the only solution then I am afraid you would have to accept her decision.

How very, very sad this must be for you. 🙁

The answer is there would be one less person in the world. Which isn’t exactly a bad thing now, is it?

If my wife were currently up to the walking then we'd be going backpacking all weekend for sure. Kid and some kit on one back, camping gear on the other. No bother.

I used to think I didn't want kids, and then I started to think about the years slipping by with nothing but self-indulgence to mark the time passing.. It felt kind of hollow to me. I love to do stuff for other people, and who better to do things for than your own kids? It's a unique relationship you can't have with anyone else.

TBH, if you (as a couple) didn't want babies, why aren't you using contraceptives? Any way too late now huh?

for 11 years we've used condoms exclusively, wife can't take the pill as it messes her around... 6/7 weeks ago we'd been apart for 2 weeks or so... I got lucky (or unlucky?!) with my first free throw from the line...

we are put on this earth

Fallacious argument. We're not PUT here for a purpose, we just are here 🙂

TandemJeremy - Member

Only she can make the decision - you can help. support, advise but its her decision about her body.

Gnarman - its not We are pregnant - its she is.

They're perfect Guardian-style answers, but I can't completely agree with them - in a marriage (or any long-term relationship) you have to give up part of your personal liberty, and that includes pregnancy. Of course it's her body, and at the end of the day if she wants to terminate she can, but she needs to realise that her decision may have unwanted consequences. Similarly, a woman cannot simply decide to get pregnant without consulting her partner. The pregnancy is a shared experience, albeit one where 95% of the work is done by the woman.

To the OP: you're both young, if your wife really doesn't want a kid right now you've got at least another 5-10 years to change your minds. Let her know you'd like to have it, but that you support her decision either way.

Its her body and her right to choose - 100% Morally . legally and ethically.

This is simply is not true. No matter how you look at it 50% of the fetus is from the father.

How on earth is it selfish to do the one single thing we are put on this earth to do?

There was me thinking it was to ride bikes 🙄

[img] [/img]

mogrim - not true I'm afraid. Female fertility nosedives once they're into their 30's, plus pregancy gets riskier the older the woman is, so time is of the essence.

But I really feel for the OP - I contributed to his first post and he knows my views on termination when in a relationship but it sounds to me that, unless she has a quick change of mind, this relationship is destined to failure. The only possible solution I could suggest is to convince her to put off an abortion until the latest possible time so she has time to consider her options. But at the end of the day, if she really insists losing the child is the only solution then I am afraid you would have to accept her decision.

Although I agree with the original sentiments of this post. I dont agree with this

put off the abortion until the latest possible time.

And I dont see how anyone from either side of the argument, pro-choice/pro-life can.

Surely the later you leave it the more emotionally/physically damaging the procedure will be.

Also the more likely the fetus/child will be able to feel pain or be aware.

Molgrips - sorry squire - that simply would not work in the where we go. Far too top heavy dangerous and cumbersome.

scu98rkr - how can you lay claim to something inside her body? You have zero rights on her body and quite rightly IMO

mogrim - not true I'm afraid. Female fertility nosedives once they're into their 30's, plus pregancy gets riskier the older the woman is, so time is of the essence.

Riskier, but the main risk is over 40. The OPs wife is only 31, maybe 10 years was an optimistic exagerration on my part, but 5 years is perfectly reasonable.

scu98rkr - how can you lay claim to something inside her body? You have zero rights on her body and quite rightly IMO

Zero [b]legal[/b] rights, but non-zero [b]moral[/b] rights.

[i]but she needs to realise that her decision may have unwanted consequences. Similarly, a woman cannot simply decide to get pregnant without consulting her partner. [/i]

Partnerships/marriages are ALL about communication and support. It's a hard decision for sure, but it's one only the woman can really take, it's not the bloke who's pregnant. You can talk about it, but once the decision to either terminate or keep the baby is made, then that's it, no more discussion.

As men we can't just keep banging on (hmmmm) until your partner agrees.

I disagree - tell me the moral basis for you to have rights over her body?

scu98rkr - how can you lay claim to something inside her body? You have zero rights on her body and quite rightly IMO

Im not really talking about rights. Im talking about your statement that is its is 100% her body which is simply not true.

Either the fetus made up of 100% its own material or 50% of mother and 50% father. The genetic data to produce the fetus are from both the father and the mother.

TJ, you don't half spout some crap as absolute certainties just because it's what you believe.

There are a lot of people don't agree with this but they are simply wrong as you are.

Its her body and her right to choose - 100% Morally . legally and ethically.

Legally, absolutely. Morally and ethically, there's no black and white answer so there is no absolute of right and wrong. If it really was that simple then the world would be in one hell of a lot less of a mess generally.

FWIW, I do agree with you that on balance it's her choice but I'm not so narrow minded as to believe that it being my view makes it the only morally and ethically correct one. 🙄

To the OP, as has already been suggested above, weigh it up.

If she has an abortion and you split up as a result at least it's just the two of you affected and there's a good chance you'll get over it and move on with your lives

If she has the baby just to keep you happy (grossly simplified but fundamentally right) and her concerns now aren't just natural fear of the unknown, then you'll be messing up a kid's life which doesn't seem fair.

Only you can really weigh up the likelyhood of each of those outcomes so only you can really decide how to handle it.

FWIW, we definitely didn't have an easy time of it with our son but have never doubted that choosing to have a baby was the right thing.

scu98rkr - Member

Either the fetus made up of 100% its own material or 50% of mother and 50% father. The genetic data to produce the fetus are from both the father and the mother.

The "material" of the foetus is not made up 50/50 of mother and father.

To put it simply, if she decides to have the kid it's my child too. I have legal rights and obligations were that to happen. If you're married, you're committed to a relationship with another person, and to completely ignore his/her views is not (IMO) a moral position to take.

Don't get me wrong: I fully agree that if a woman decides to abort, it's her body and her decision. But I don't agree that she can simply take that decision in a moral vacuum.

The "material" of the foetus is not made up 50/50 of mother and father.

Ok this is true as the ovum is much larger than the sperm but the genetic data to produce the rest of child is approx 50%. And the material that makes up the rest of the child has been processed by the mother first.

The point is its not 100% the mother as TJ states.

Actually the more I think about the this the more I think it is its own life form. I was trying to give a hand to the pro choice sayings it 50% mother 50% father but to be honest I probably think its 100% its self and 0% mother/father.

[i]But I don't agree that she can simply take that decision in a moral vacuum. [/i]

No one is I think, suggesting that that's the case. but it is at the end of the day one person's decision to make in decisions about pregnancy. As men we can put forward our opinions, but when it comes down to it, once both of you have had that discussion, and the woman still wants to terminate, then as men, we have to respect that, we can't just keep on at it until the woman changes her mind to what we want.

Molgrips - sorry squire - that simply would not work in the where we go. Far too top heavy dangerous and cumbersome

I wasn't talking to you TJ now was I you dipstick. I was pointing out that backpacking is possible with kids. I'm sure I don't need to point out that activities with kids have to be modified to take them into account, but my point was that you can still do stuff. I'd have to be a right cretin to suggest VDiff alpine routes or whatever with a kid, wouldn't I?

Engage brain first mate.

On topic - the kid is both of yours, born or unborn. Doesn't really matter where its actual cells come from, otherwise I'd partly be the property of Welsh beef farmers.

Fallacious argument. We're not PUT here for a purpose, we just are here

WackoAK - Member
iain1775 - the op asked for thoughts, not personal insults to be aimed at those people offering advice.

I think if you read you wil find I did offer advise. In a far more constructive and detailed manner and taking into account the OP's particular situation and my own experience of a very similar situation than the people here who are just turning the thread around to be about them and how they personally are too selfish to have kids. Because they clearly have little or no experience of what this person is going througgh and the gravity of the actual problem
Either way, whatever desision is made this is likely to be if not the end of an 11 year relationship then a very defining moment in how that relationship develops and it will emotionally change two people probably beyond their current comprehension
Throwaway comments about selfishness and too many kids in the world already, its her body end of dont really add much to help do they?

scu98rkr - Member

Actually the more I think about the this the more I think it is its own life form. I was trying to give a hand to the pro choice sayings it 50% mother 50% father but to be honest I probably think its 100% its self and 0% mother/father.

Ah - you mean it's a parasite for the first 9 months. Seems like the host has the right to deal with it accordingly then.

Just to give a female perspective on this...

I had a termination many years ago, I was far too young to consider having a kid, not in a stable relationship and had just lost my job. Until very recently I was haunted by that decision. If she is 100% sure that this is the route she wants to take, I would seriously advise she seeks counseling now, as it's not a choice you can change your mind on later down the line.

On the up side I've recently become a mum, to what I consider to be the most amazing baby girl. Yes I had 9 months of being fat and grumpy but she was so worth it (even the 23 hours of labour and emergency C-Section), I still have weight to shift, but it's only to be expected it took 9 months (and large quantities of cake) to get big, it's going to take at least 9 to get back to my size 8 figure , and as for your life being over, well yes, the life you have now will never be the same again, but I've met so many lovely people in the local area all with their own little ones, and if anything my social life has expanded significantly.

Just my 2p's worth

I really hope you two manage to sort things out.

There are a lot of people don't agree with this but they are simply wrong as you are.

Its her body and her right to choose - 100% Morally . legally and ethically.

Men have tried to get court injunctions to prevent their partners having terminations and failed every time.

she does not need your consent to have the termination.

that may be the case but I suspect with that attitude / approach the relationship wont last!
Whilst it may be all her body, relationship is still about the 2 (3) people involved and they all have thoughts opinions and entitlements

MF, we have no purpose.

But I don't agree that she can simply take that decision in a moral vacuum.

No one is I think, suggesting that that's the case.

I think TJ is.

but it is at the end of the day one person's decision to make in decisions about pregnancy. As men we can put forward our opinions, but when it comes down to it, once both of you have had that discussion, and the woman still wants to terminate, then as men, we have to respect that, we can't just keep on at it until the woman changes her mind to what we want.

I don't agree we have to respect it, we have to live with it, and living with it may imply living without her.

As men we can put forward our opinions, but when it comes down to it, once both of you have had that discussion, and the woman still wants to terminate, then as men, we have to respect that, we can't just keep on at it until the woman changes her mind to what we want.

Fair point... and I guess it's part of being in a relationship as well, respecting each others decisions etc, but... I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't. I might be fine and happy that my/our relatively carefree life gets to go on and I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy (as I currently do, to a point!), but I may suddenly realise (as I may already be realising) that there may well be more to life and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away... I just don't know.

[i]I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't.[/i]

For her sake, and for the sake of your relationship you need to get that sorted.

gnarman - Member

I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't. I might be fine and happy that my/our relatively carefree life gets to go on and I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy (as I currently do, to a point!), but I may suddenly realise (as I may already be realising) that there may well be more to life and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away... I just don't know.

Fair point - and none of can realistically expect to predict how we will react in those circumstances.. I think you'll just need to take it as it comes.

Haven't bothered to read all the other stuff as this is about as personal a decision as you both will ever be faced with.

You could be screwed which ever way it goes.

She might terminate and you'll leave her.

She might terminate then resent you later for not stopping her.

She might have the kid and resent it.

She might have the kid and resent you.

She might have the kid but something else will lead you to leave them both.

Or

She might terminate and you'll carry on as before.

She might have the kid and you'll all be happy.

(Has anyone else read "When a Monster is Born" BTW?)

My only advice would be that the order of things happening should be that you discuss the options as much as you can. Then she has to make the decision whether to terminate. Then you have to make your decision and either accept things as they are or leave. But don't let your decision eat you up.

and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away

But she wouldn't be taking that opportunity away, there'd still be the opportunity to have kids in the future.

I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy

You have to understand that kids needn't cost you a lot of money. Let's get that straight!

Did you discuss kids previously, before getting married?

For her sake, and for the sake of your relationship you need to get that sorted.

But how can I know until it's done? Really thinking about it now, I can see the positives of not having this baby: we get to keep travelling around Europe etc, we save more money and go back to Australia with a house deposit (hopefully when the bloody pound is worth a bit more than now!), I get to keep my bikes (will have to sell a fair bit if we have a child now) and our lives stay the same pretty much. Then in a couple of years we go home in a good position & buy our first place with a decent deposit, get settled in to jobs etc and then we can try again for a child. Sounds like a plan right?

But I just feel it's wrong for us to do this... we've created a life (or the opportunity for it to exist) and I just don't feel we should take that away just so we can save more money or go travelling or whatever else... I think I'm going to feel guilty about that and it's going to taint everything afterwards?

Bloody catholic upbringing finally coming home to bite me on the arse with it's latent morals & ethics... brainwashing runs deep it seems...

We were in a similar position 16 years ago, except we were younger, early 20s.

Came down to (1) we were confident we would stay together for the forseeable future and (2) we would want kids some day, but maybe not _just_ yet. So in the end we just thought we might as well get it over and done with! Just think it might have been your last fertile sperm/egg for all you know. We managed fine for money despite not earning much at the time, its not as if you need to pay it all up front is it. Wouldn't change it.

So try that as an argument, but at the end of the day despite what you say if she ain't happy then its not happening.

Gnar - seriously - why would you have to sell bikes? How much do you think it'd cost?

Well... what we really want is to go home to Oz with enough for a house deposit, so around AUD$30k or so (£18k or thereabouts), this was one of our aims in coming over to the UK (along with advancing Mrs Gnar's career, which has definitely happened). By having a kid now, this means we'd go home in February next year as I'm pretty sure we'll be better having family around etc, so selling bikes makes sense to help get to this target as well as reduce the amount of stuff we need to take home!