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I can't say I've noticed any financial hardship since Jnr W2K arrived!
EDIT: Just noticed you're a sponger, so my sympathy level has dropped a little. 😉
Gnar - seriously - why would you have to sell bikes? How much do you think it'd cost?
+1
In fact long term you will be buying more bikes. And parts donated to a child's bike are the perfect excuse for replacement you know.
I can't say I've noticed any financial hardship since Jnr W2K arrived!
Bet you earn more than I do though... my wage last year was £24k, Mrs G was £40k or so, which is another issue as she's the main bread winner...
Pretty much the same gnarman, but no debt other than mortgage to worry about.
You could cope without family for sure, for a while. It helps to have people round you, but I'd say if you need to stay and save up then do just that. You'll manage it.
Phew, lots of advice so far, and another female perspective if it helps. All the things she is worrying about may just be understandable fears, that with discussion/time she can deal with and rationalise. Or it may be much deeper and actually, she just doesn't want to have kids for a whole host of reasons that include but are not solely about the things you've listed. You must sit down, and talk and then talk some more about how you both really feel about stuff and why. Clearly this is going to be a real test of your relationship, but I find it interesting (no judgement involved) that you are questioning your - so far - happy relationship in the light of what she has said about this pregnancy. I would imagine that you chose to be together because you love each other and wanted to spend your lives together come what may. If that (maybe) doesn't involve kids - why would you want her, and your relationship with her any less?
Yes, ultimately, she could take a unilateral decision about what to do, but you are in this together and after 11 years of marriage you owe it to each other to talk about it as long as it takes, in order to come a decision that you both understand, even if it's one that you don't necessarily share. Warm wishes to you both in working through this.
+1. Her fears may be making her think that a kid would be a problem. Maybe with a bit more positivity from somewhere it'd be different.
Or to put it another way - look on the bright side.
Well... what we really want is to go home to Oz with enough for a house deposit, so around AUD$30k or so (£18k or thereabouts), this was one of our aims in coming over to the UK (along with advancing Mrs Gnar's career, which has definitely happened).
Money is a smokescreen. Creating a perfect financial environment for a child is a real middle class obsession, and a very bad idea because it's never ending.
The decision is this:
1. You have the baby. You both then have to deal with all that comes with this.
2. Your wife terminates the pregnancy. You stay with her and may or may not have a child in the future.
3. You leave. You now need to find a partner to have a child with, and that's less easy when everyone's coupled up in their 30s.
Option 1 is (subject to a succesful pregnancy) the most certain. It's up to the pair of you to then make it work.
Options 2 and 3 are less certain. There is no guarantee that you and your wife will conceive again, whether because she doesn't want to or you can't - [b]don't assume lightning will strike twice[/b]) and there is no guarantee that you would meet anyone new with whom to have a child. Remember also that further delay makes you an older parent.
Time is not on your side - you have only a few weeks' window for the termination. You have only a small number of years (don't believe all that getting pregnant in your late 30s is easy nonsense - female fertility drops sharply at 30, and off a cliff from 35).
I'd say keep it and live with the decision you both made. Sure, it's changed your plans, but so what - life isn't all abiut living to a single plan.
Gnar - what a difficult and emotional time you must both be having. I can tell you that blokes do grieve for babies they want and then lose - I have been there. As I see it, you made the baby together, so you need to decide what to do together. I do believe that a life is hanging in the balance as you decide. It sounds like you and your wife definitely need some unbiased, professional counselling to help you make your choice. I hope it's a good one.
Or she may just not want kids, and is being forced to try and justify that decision.
I think the choice to have children or not can't always be justified with rational reasons.
In the OP's situation I'd be wary of backing her into a corner by trying to overcome all the reasons she's given.
-> ebygomm - the trouble they have isn't that they don't want kids, its that they unexpectedly have one on the way. The choice is not whether to have kids or not, but whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. The two are completely different questions.
The choice is not whether to have kids or not, but whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. The two are completely different questions.
Maybe to you, but not everyone feels like that. In a perfect world it might be different, but you can't separate the decision to terminate from the decision to have a child
I disagree - tell me the moral basis for you to have rights over her body?
Whilst the body is hers, the object inside her is at most 50% hers. Therein lies the question of morals
We weren't put here for anything
Ethically / morally, that's as maybe, but biologically and naturally, the sole purpose we serve is to reproduce
It's all very well talking about shared responsibility and 50% this 50% that but at the end of the day, there is no middle ground. It's an either or situation.
Yes, you can talk and try and reach a decision together but there isn't any choice that is a compromise, so ultimately it has to be one persons decision. There is nothing morally wrong about that.
...and the consequences in a marriage of taking a decision like that as an individual, may be that it isn't just the pregnancy that is terminated...
Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that a decision has to be made even if both people aren't happy with that decision. It doesn't make that decision morally wrong.
I'm a dad of three.
My advice; stop with all the agonising, stop with all the attempts to rationalise the situation, go and give her a kiss and tell her you will love her whatever she wants to do...
Whatever happens, it's just life doing what life does.
I'd love to see this thread linked to mumsnet etc.
Whilst the body is hers, the object inside her is at most 50% hers. Therein lies the question of morals
Dunno man. What does one single sperm weigh? Not a lot compared to a foetus.
I'm with TJ on this one. It's not the OP's place to be putting any pressure on her to make a decision one way or the other.
unexpectedly expecting
personal question i know.... and i havent read all of the above....
it really fascinates me when people say it was 'unexpected'.....
A - were you banging away with no contraception?
B - using contraception?
Im not trying to be pedantic, im just interested....
Gnarman, does your wife have any female friends who have children she cud talk to? I'm sure if she speaks to other mums she may find that they felt exactly the same for a while. I don't have kids yet but can imagine how scary it must be but there aren't many people out there who regret it. Whatever happens I'm afraid one or both of you will come out bruised and battered. It wud be a good idea to speak to a counsellor now to help u get throughit and to talk properly about your feelings. As some have said u are still young so if u change your minds u cud still have children in the future. At the end of the day u need to prepare yourself for a rough time but you married for better for worse. Hope you get the outcome you want though, I always feel sorry for guys in this situation because people always forget your feelings. Let's us know what happens.
I've got three children. They are hard work, and cost money - quite a lot (I notice that all those saying they cost nothing have children at most a couple of months old). But I don't really think that should come into it - as someone said, it's just life doing what it does. You will make it work.
Having said that, I think the best advice came from crikey -
You've been together for 11 years for a reason, and that hasn't changed, and shouldn't change whatever she decides.go and give her a kiss and tell her you will love her whatever she wants to do...
Three older kids is very obviously going to cost you money. I am of course referring to immediate outlay when you have a baby/little one, which is what would impact the OP.
My advice on this is that she needs to talk to some one such as her midwife for impartial advice on both sides as there are consequences to having a termination. My wife tells me that she feels a comection to the baby very early on. If you talk to someone who has lost a baby early on then they have normaly had to have counselling for the loss. That said if she really doesn't want to go through with it then you need to be there for her.
im now typing this one handed with a baby in other arm that has been screaming colicy wails for the last 2 hours and wont settle. my ear drums are exploding and my head banging but i stand by my earlier advice, this is the most personal and amazing experience of my entire life
you both need 110% commitment 110% of the time though so if that doesnt exist.....
gnarman, you are in a tricky no win situation and the relationship is probably over, only one of you will be happy whatever the outcome is, she will be happy without baby and you wont be, if she keep the baby then she will be unhappy while you are pleased with it, it wouldnt be fair on the baby to have single parents.
Sorry to be blunt, it's best the lady have the final say as it's her body and mind that have to go through this, I wish you the best and good luck.
hell must have frozen, cos for once i agree with TJ.
Its her decision - and you must support her.
a baby puts a huge strain on a relationship - and if it is a little rocky before hand, the first couple of years can break the relationship if theres resentment about the decision.
The only possible solution I could suggest is to convince her to put off an abortion until the latest possible time
I find that a horrible thought...after seeing my daughter at her 3 month scan (a still legal termination date) - she was quite clearly a person at that stage....no way should you dither to the full 24 weeks (6 months)...
[Edit] removed my further comment as it's probably too harsh / too real
..again, stop with all the middle class angst. If she would like to have a baby, support her. If not, support her.
It's really not a big deal either way, and 10 years from now you'll not be worried about 'what might have happened'.
It's life, it doesn't run in straight lines, it really doesn't care much what you think, it just happens and you don't really have much choice but to accept it.
Jesus, we'd all never bother doing anything if we analysed this much...
Hi gnarman, sorry to pitch in after sooo many comments, I guess that goes to show how serious and passionate people are about this. I'm not going to add to much, just a couple of questions:
1) Have you had the conversation in the past (before pregnancy) about what you wanted out of life and partnership? (sounds like you may have had that a bit)
2) If yes, what was the outcome of that? If no, suggest you [i]try[/i] to have one now, without polluting with emotion of current situation (i understand this is somewhat difficult!).
I am talking here about life, not just next few years. Is the long term vision of grandkids/greatgrandkids playing in the house, screaming and playing and fighting? Or is it one of independence, security, freedom to choose one's life experiences unburdened by other necessities?
If the response is really that we want the complete fiscal and personal freedom of having no family, then that is cool. I have friends who have made that call, and as they made it together and it is both what they want they are confident, happy and delightful company who love our, and other peoples, kids.
If there is something in the future that is different to that, then you need to clarify and understand what the long term view of this is for both of you. Really understand what a misty eyed vision of the future is, both of you describe it. What will she be doing? What will you be doing? What will you be doing together?
Only by thinking about that end goal will you both reach a decision regarding the immediate situation that will ultimately benefit you both.
Whatever, you gotta keep talking man, and mostly talking with each other.
Kev
It's really not a big deal either way
WTF!...sorry I can not ignore that there are 3 people involved in this....think I'll keep away from this thread from now on
The only possible solution I could suggest is to convince her to put off an abortion until the latest possible time
I find that a horrible thought...after seeing my daughter at her 3 month scan (a still legal termination date) - she was quite clearly a person at that stage....no way should you dither to the full 24 weeks (6 months)...
[Edit] removed my further comment as it's probably too harsh / too real
if you see my reply on his first post on this subject you will see that I am firmly of the same belief as you but this particular case doesn't sound like it would have a happy outcome for mother, father or child should she be pressurised into going through with it. It is terribly sad but I don't see another solution personally.
Have you actually discussed about how things could be when the baby arrives?
For example, you say your wife is the breadwinner. Would that continue? Or would you look after baby? Or would baby go to childminder? Who will deal with these arrangements, your wife?
I'm a mum although they are now adults. The way I see it is that the man's life stays the same, it's the woman who's life completely changes, assuming she would be a stay-at-home mum.
It is not necessarily easy for women to adapt to being at home, post-natal depression, lack of stimulation, boredom, loneliness etc.
Could this be what is worrying her?
The man's life stays the same? Like yeah, right!
Er, yes it does! You get up, go to work, come home.
The mother's is slightly different! She has to adapt.
How are your twins doing?
CG, did you not read the recent stay-at-home dad thread (also started by gnarman, so maybe they have thought about it)? - [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/any-stay-at-home-dads-on-here#post-1371824 ]here[/url]
There are actually quite a lot of us on here, but even amongst those who aren't I think your generalisation doesn't stand up these days. Not amongst my friends anyway.
I am not saying the change is as profound as the mother's (in most cases) but it does change - my life has changed entirely in the last year.
And the twins are doing wonderfully thanks - but we could do with a few more unbroken nightzzzzzzz
rightplacerighttime - just had a quick look! Apologies - I didn't realise this was happening 😳
m_f - pleased to hear. 🙂
6/7 weeks ago we'd been apart for 2 weeks or so
Woah . . . That's got my spidey sense tingling!
I've only just noticed this thread and haven't bothered to read much of the responses. As originally stated there are a stack of negatives in the argument. Turn it around, be positive, seek professional advice, her hormones are up the spout at the moment making decision making chaotic.
Do think about the adoption route, it's a positive route and there are plenty of couples for which it's the only solution to have a much wanted child.
Just a thought and it's probably been suggested before. It is life changing and frequently life limiting having rug rats, my husband struggles with it daily and he was the one who wanted 3!
'm a mum although they are now adults. The way I see it is that the man's life stays the same, it's the woman who's life completely changes
what an outdated feminist attitude!
I may still have to go to work but I take as much involvement with my baby as I possibly can and my life has most definately changed (for the better)
Adoption - yes! I have three friends who wouldn't have existed if there had been an easy alternative to adoption at the time (and one has two kids themselves). I also have friends who have adopted two kids and they are all very happy.
The mother and father can both take equal roles if you want it that way. The only thing that the father can't do is directly breastfeed - although he can from a bottle. I know people who have a 50/50 split.
they dont change your life that much, i have a 1 year old and a 5 year old. When our 1st was 1 we went hiking and camping with him in france, just get a decent back pack that can carry kids, we still went to parties till midnight he slept in the buggy, we did huge 20 mile walks with a decent 3 wheel off road buggy. Once he was 9 months he went to nursery so we could both keep our careers. TBH I hated the 1st year of both of them, but after the 1st year it was great, some love the beginning, I didnt but thats me. Saying your life is over is just a guess and not true. If you push yourself to do things life continues. My wife and I have been riding with the kids on tag alongs and kids seats. I could never terminate and TBH I think that is a 50/50 decision, I hate this attitude of "its her body" yes but its baby that belongs to both of you!
One comment on here cracks me up "having kids is selfish" (circa 1st or 2nd page... well you were born and if people didnt have kids the world would stop.
Kids are great fun and your life does not change that much, if you share the responsibility you can both stil enjoy your hobbies, spare time and friends. my 5 year old is great now, helping him learn to read, write, ride bikes, swim etc is great and rewarding + we have met a lot of new friends with kids (over 10 couples) so in fact our social life has increased, we go to theirs and vice versa for BBQ's and if the kids get tired we put them to bed while we carry on drinking....
I was scared at 1st esp with the 2nd one
BUT life is good and new doors have opened
I really feel for you it mus be a hard decision. I think that your Missus needs to talk to someone who has been in her situation. I don't have children however I would'ev thought there would be a significant number of women who have had similar thoughts as you guys.
Okay the decision does need to be made together otherwise it could ruin your relationship, however it is your wife that has to carry the baby so you do need to support her.
With the salaries you 2 are on should be ok, I know people raising kids who earn a lot less, it's about being sensible and as already mentioned why spend £1000 on a pushchair and £4000 on furniture when it won't last long.
good luck on this as only you 2 can decide hoep it works out for the best