[Closed] More Ashcroft...

The real point of that it is Hague who pressed for the peerage for Ashcroft and was involved in the assurances about his status and told the world Ashcroft would be UK resident and taxpayer - and now Hague has admitted that he did not know of the " negotiated deal" to alter this status until a few months ago - when this happened 10 years ago.

So Ashcroft mislead Hague as Hague has now admitted.

Its clear that CallmeDave is loosing the election - with his lack of concrete policies, his constant U turning and the way he is beholden to unsavoury individuals. His poll lead is evaporating without anything coming from Labour

Lets just hope this doesn't lead to Hague being forced out. IMHO (and I'm no tory), he is one of the better and brighter members of the front bench. If they do get in, it'll be less bad if he is in the cabinet.

i must admit i was a bit surprised at hague being either hoodwinked, in which case hes not as bright as i thought, or being complicit in the hoodwinkery in which case hes less honest than i thought, either way a he seems to be tarnished by it all which is a shame as he does seem like a decent fellah, for a tory

tho i suppose if ashcrofts $$ have done the job in the marginal seats and the torys get in without a hung parliament it wont really matter

"Its clear that CallmeDave is losing the election"

absoulutely brilliant. I hope so.

Not lost it yet but what was looking like a large majority no longer is at all. Possibly not even the largest party but the polls will change again. This appears to have lost him further ground and is not over yet

Where is mefty and the rest of the toryboys to deny that Hague was hoodwinked?

I dont think Hague should get the blame for Ashcrofts deceit not his fault the man mislead him and the rest of us is it. I think he was honest but incorrect.

No idea if Dave will win but I think they have an interseting dilemma of supporting Ashcroft or distancing themsloeves - rock and a hard place really will be attacked whichever they do. I think dave will do nothing as he does not seem strong on ideas IMHO. Presentable and media friendly but not really a policy/principle man [Blair for example?]

As for Ashcroft deceitful and wont be doing the party any good. Interesting to note the report will be out re his compant beofre the election should be interesting. Certainly has added fuel to tfire of the same old tories and them being the party of the rich etc.

Hague is not really to blame except for his lack of judgement in trying to get a peerage for ashcroft. ashcroft has also mislead many others including Cameron ( unless he is a liar)

I do hope the report on the shell company is out before the election the odds on the tories having to pay back the money are high

Still getting my vote as there isn't an alternative.

Is this the same Hague that used to drink 14 pints in a session?

[img] http://timesnews.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d811753ef01157150db6e970c-800wi [/img]

one of the better and brighter members of the front bench

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2010/mar/03/jeremy-paxman-lord-ashcroft-william-hague ]What happened when Paxman asked Hague the "Ashcroft question"[/url]

16 pints get your fact right. What do you think you are? A politician?

well his donations were legal.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8549243.stm

... if immoral.

Interesting and suprising that Kimbers

i suspect if the commission delved too deeply into the financing of any of the parties then the entire house (of cards) may come tumbling down

[img] [/img]

😉

Like it CFH - for sure there is dodgy dealings all around.

Yep, and that's why I suspect that the comment above by Kimbers may have a lot to do with what has happened here!

16 pints get your fact right. What do you think you are? A politician?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/871543.stm

That's 2 pints you owe me 😀

Let's say I am a Columbian Drug Dealer with an interest in the election of a particular party. I set up a UK company and buy your local corner shop for a few thousand. So I have a UK registered company carrying on a UK business. I now subscribe for further shares in my company for £100 million, I then give that money to the political party. That's legal and permissible political donation according to the law.

Not the Electoral Commission trying to not upset the apple cart, but a completely valueless piece of legislation.

Interesting and suprising

No its not TJ.

Im sure what you meant to say that it was "scandalous that the bankroller of the party that I personally dislike managed to abide by the rules without tripping up and giving the left an historic victory in our hour of need. He should be strung up anyway coz 'is eyes are too close together, I dont trust people with more money than UNISON and he probably votes Tory".

At least it's safe to say that SFB's shorts are not under any threat from me, although I assure you it was never a real risk given the facts in the real world outside of the imaginations of the left and their associated fits of pique.

scandalous that the bankroller of the party that I personally dislike managed to abide by the rules without tripping up and giving the left an historic victory in our hour of need

... yet

Actually I'm glad he's still there. He's a sleazeball and this whole episode will continue to rumble on towards the election. The longer he stays around the more damage he will do to the Tories chances.

Boo hoo.

....yet?

There's nothing left to throw at him. The left have failed to land a fatal blow and they're mighty pissed about it.

Any drama about misinterpretation of his tax status will blow over, but his funding of the Tory party will continue all the way through the election campaign and be far more valuable to them than perceived whiff of scandal dragging along behind.

Labour have blown it with their attempt on Ashcroft - the only things that they could possibly use to separate him from their own non-dom donors in the Lords is his letter of commitment with its interpretation and his company donations. The Electoral commission have put paid to problems with the latter (as mefty has illustrated it was never going to be an issue given the flimsy law applicable to BOTH parties donors) and The Lords honours committee have said they cant look at the former issue retrospectively. So it's a busted flush. Labour can now go off and lick their wounds and dream of a donor daft enough to back them and bail them out of electoral bankruptcy.

and did the government agree to the shady deal to they could leak it later to torpedo the Tories ?

Stoner - what rubbish - there is still more to come. You show your stupidity and petty predjudices all teh time - especially when you invent things I say.

today we found out Ashcroft mislead Hague. Thats a real biggie and more to come yet

There's nothing left to throw at him.

His eyes are too close together.

>Thats a real biggie and more to come yet

Go on TJ, post it up here and let us in on the secret 🙂

and did the government agree to the shady deal to they could leak it later to torpedo the Tories ?

I doubt it. That would require planning.

i dont think this is a busted flush stoner

its just another point to labour in the eyes of the voters for several days now we've had headlines that basically say tory=sleaze
people skim the article see tory donor, lies £5m, hague cover up etc teh torries loose a few voters
but dont worry next week when labour loose a hard drive with oaps pension details or brown turns out to have owned a civil servant with some bombers or osbornes GCSE report shows he got an F at maths or whatever the next bit of muck to be slung is.

and so it goes on until may 10th

So we now know that Ascroft misled hague - the leader tat the time of his enoblement.

The next thing will be Cameron will have to fess up to either conspiracy or cock up - as Hague has had to.

The key thing is the deceit that goes right to the heart of the party

Which Tory MP was it that excluded F1 from the tobacco advertising ban then accepted a £1,000,000 bribe from Bernie Ecclestone again?

and so it goes on until may 10th

yep.

The whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. The only reason any of this stuff is important is because both the main parties are so useless, and I suspect that the party we will end up with making decisions that hugely effect our lives will be the one who didn't screw up last.

It's a bit like pass the parcel, where you know that inside the final layer of wrapping paper is a turd.

Stonor how can you possibly say that of the person who said this

He has broken the law I am sure. If it is proven as I am sure it will be that the donations were channelled thru a shell company then the donations are illegal

…and is still blocking the investigation into his holding company.
there will be more lies to come out yet but the tories are hoping it will be delayed until after the election.
We have a liar bankrolling a liar here and the blind do not see it.

Just wait until the investigation into the donation route is finished. Thats a really murky pool that the tories are desperately hoping they can filibuster until after the election.

This is why Bearwood is being investigated. A preliminary investigation showed a case to answer and the full investigation is ongoing. Ashcroft and the tory party are doing their best to block the investigation but on the surface this is clear illegality.

How could you possibly say that, wash your mouth out with soap.

Which Tory MP was it that sold passports to the arms dealer Hinduja again?

[i]The key thing is the deceit that goes right to the heart of the party [/i]

TJ - you're naive to think the electorate believe that it applies only to the tories even if it is even remotely true at all.

Anyway, I bet that given the chance, a majority of the electorate would back swindlers over incompetents any day. Im guessing come May 6th that'll be the choice they have and my theory proven 😉

[i]You show your stupidity and petty predjudices all teh time - especially when you invent things I say.[/i]

now, now TJ. Where's my invention about what you say then?
You do so like to throw around accusations with no solid proof dont you?

I wont even rise to your immature jibe about stupidity.

[i]today we found out Ashcroft mislead Hague. Thats a real biggie and more to come yet [/i]

Its not a real biggie now is it. In your little world of Right is wrong and Left is right you see Machiavellian deception and evilness in everything. How many times over the next few months will you keep on crying wolf then TJ?

And more to come eh? well surprise me with some evidence based fact for a change on that one would you, because your reliance on hearsay, misinterpretation and the bubble of your own self-righteousness isnt really putting the wind up anybody in the debating stakes.

Stoner - you denial of fact is ludicrous. Look at the Hagues statements. It shows clear deceit of the leader of the party by one of the funders.

Thats the issue - not the tax status nor the donations but the lies and deceit - and its clear from Hagues statements that he was deceived as were others.

Trust is one of the most important things for a politician and this has proven that the current crop of top tories are not trustworthy.

mefty - indeed.
Im surprised the Electoral Commission didnt call TJ up for some sober advice. They do get it so wrong so often dont they. 🙄

Trust is one of the most important things for a politician and this has proven that the current crop of [b]politicians[/b] are not trustworthy.

fixed it for you.

TJ I havent denied any facts. Those that are in the public domain are accepted. What you continually do is refer to hearsay, commentary and presumptive [u]interpretation[/u] in lieu of facts and expect people to swallow it. There are facts and there are morals. You insist on mixing the two up and it makes you look like a petulant 16 year old schoolgirl writing an essay about Anne of Cleves.

Which Tory MP was it that sold passports to the arms dealer Hinduja again?

Just to be factually correct, Mandleson was in fact cleared over the Hinduja affair, but in the spirit of your question:

Was it Aitken, Conway, Archer, or Hamilton?

Stoner
[img] [/img]
Mefty
[img] [/img]

TJ - Your appreciation of what a fact is is ludicrous. Every time you are requested to produce one you produce innuendo, comment etc. etc. Never a fact. You draw conclusions because that is what suits your agenda, when there are perfectly innocuous explanations.

see that poo over there? That's you that is. And that bogey? That's your girlfriend. So neerrr!

Mefty - and your ability to explain away what is clear deceit and corruption is incredible.

Ashcroft has lied and misled all the way thru this for ten years as now admitted by members of his own party including Hague

I thought I was supposed to be blind, so am I now deaf as well? As correct as your other allegations.

Ashcroft has [s]lied[/s] and misled

In the Real World (not affiliated with any leftwing existence) You'd be very hard pressed to prove a lie in there TJ.

He misled did he? Go on then, so what are you going to do about it? He's not even elected so you cant through Malfeasance in Public Office at him. I know, how about just use it as an illustration that all tories are corrupt and invidious. That'll work. Afterall misleading is next to lying which is next to murder and that's close to eating babies and only one step away from ridiculing the labour movement. Egads! String 'im up!

Ashcroft has [b]lied[/b]

TJ - show me [u]one[/u] example where Ashcroft has [u]lied[/u], just one!

TJ - Would you kindly provide a link to the interview where Hague said he was misled by Ashcroft?

Its there mefty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7362152/William-Hague-I-did-not-know-Lord-Ashcroft-was-a-non-dom.html

Later, in a sign that, despite their friendship, Mr Hague is not prepared to shield the peer, who has donated millions of pounds to the Conservatives, the shadow foreign secretary gave an interview in which he made clear that Lord Ashcroft’s true status had been kept from him

had been kept from him

How is that a misleading someone, if you dont let them know [i]either[/i] way??

Can you now please back up your allegations of lies TJ?

Oh dear, TJ, I would have thought you would have learnt by now, you can't rely on the newspapers to get this right, even the Telegraph. You can listen to the original source [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qtl3 ]here[/url]. He does not say he was misled.

How is that a misleading someone, if you dont let them know either way??

Z11, I might think you are a total pillock.

Indeed RPRT - but, equally, you might not 😉

Difference between you and me is, that I [b]know[/b] I am...

If your Mrs went out last night, and didn't come back till the morning, I guess you'd ask her where she's been - if she said "none of your business" then you couldn't accuse her of misleading you - you'd say she was being obstructive, you'd say she was keeping something from you, but you couldn't accuse her of misleading you (she was great by the way!)

Of course he doesn't say it outright - but it is clear that he was not told of the change Ashcroft had made from the status he had reccomended him to be a peer on the basis of to the status he has now. Hague was left making a statement that Ashcroft must have know was untrue but Ashcroft let Hague make the untrue statement without correction.

How clear evidence of deceit do you need? That is so clear to anyone without blinkers hence the press reporting it as such. I used the torygraph as we know it is the hous paper of the Tories

TJ - who did he negotiate this change in the agreement with?

The cabinet office - the Government itself! Who is the leader of the cabinet office, a Labour minister!

So, since they were complicit in the deal throughout, do you think its fair and reasonable for Labour ministers to call foul now?

Why are you not accusing the cabinet office of misleading people/parliament?

Again, can you either back up or withdraw your allegations of lying....

I agree that he said he was not told of Ashcroft's revisions of the agreement, but he was also clear that by that stage there was no need for him to know as it had become a matter between Ashcroft and the Cabinet Office. These discussions essentially formalised and superseded previous representations whether correct or not, and there is no evidence that they weren't correct.

So there is no implicit admission of being mislead either.

Quibble over minor details all you like chaps, but the case is clear; the man wants a say in UK politics, but can't be bothered paying tax here.
That makes him a cock.

No Crikey - he pays UK taxes on his UK business operations, and Belize taxes on his foreign income.

I like watching Hague squirm.

I'll be surprised if no one gets caught out lying before this is over.

I also like to think that a lot of voters are going to be thinking the same way as crikey.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

A lot of voters are going to be wondering who runs the Conservative party and why.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

A lot of voters are going to be wondering who runs the Labour party and why.

And, while wondering that, they might ask why a husband of a member of the Labour party (A member who is, lest we forget, a posh toff, innit) was selected as Parliamentary candidate. From an all women shortlist. Nothing to do with the continued funding of Labour by Unite, oh no. Nothing at all.

Of course, we all now need to ponder what will happen when the Glorious Leader is lightly grilled by Chilcot on the morrow. Tears, tantrums or both?

I like watching Hague squirm.

I'll be surprised if no one gets caught out lying before this is over

Someone has been caught lying. TJ.

Lets slag off Ashcroft for funding Crimestoppers out of his own pocket. Lets attack him for buying up VCs and donating them to the nation. Lets kick him for never claiming parliamentry expenses. I'd rather have Ashcroft than Mandelson, Blair, Lord Paul, Hinduja, the union dictators or any of the other self serving Labour hypocrites any day.

Lets slag Ashcroft off for lying to the public, his party leaders and to paliament. Lets slag him off for stating he would pay full UK tax then not doing so. Lets slag him off for buying influence without being resident. Lets slag him off for his corrupt business practices in Belize.

The man is an utter shite - I have no time for people of his ilk from any party and that includes mandelson and paul

It is so funny watching the tory fanboys trying to defend such an odious man. The best they can do is argue sematics and attack other people.

Id rather he paid taxes than gave charity.

Dammit, I got all excited thinking this was a thread about Richard Ashcroft releasing a new album 🙁

The questions that they won't answer

1. William Hague has now confirmed that he has known about Lord Ashcroft's tax status for a "few months". When exactly did he discover your party's deputy chairman was a non-dom?

2. Why did Mr Hague not immediately publicly clarify Lord Ashcroft's status which both he and the peer had previously pledged would be that of a permanent UK resident?

3. Did he immediately tell David Cameron about Lord Ashcroft's true status? If not, why not?

4. Why did Mr Hague take more than nine years to establish Lord Ashcroft's status when he had personally offered written assurances to both Tony Blair and the honours committee that Ashcroft would become a permanent UK resident and pay "tens of millions a year" in tax as a condition for receiving the peerage?

5. Why did Mr Cameron not establish Lord Ashcroft's true status until more than four years after becoming party leader?

Stevie,

He's given £5 million to Crimestoppers and £5 million to the Imperial War Museum to house the "Ashcroft Collection". That's a small fraction of the tax he would have paid if he'd done the honourable thing and paid them in the same way that you or I have to.

He hasn't donated his VC collection to the nation.

If he'd paid the tens of millions in tax that he should have, I wouldn't mind him claiming a few grand in expenses.

TJ - if you are going to copy and paste from the Guardian you should at least credit your source.

A politician told some porkies and you getting your knickers in a twist over it? weapons of mass distraction anyone?

It is so funny watching the tory fanboys trying to defend such an odious man. The best they can do is argue sematics and attack other people.

Where have I defended Lord Paul?

If he'd paid the tens of millions in tax that he should have, I wouldn't mind him claiming a few grand in expenses

He [i]has[/i] paid the taxes he 'should have'. He paid the taxes on his British earnings. Why on earth should he pay taxes here on foreign earnings?

Trust is one of the most important things for a politician and this has proven that the current crop of top tories are not trustworthy.

That's just politicians in general, they're all the same and therefore it's important for an ideal politician, but totally pointless to expect it in a real one.

Meanwhile TJ's chum Gordie is repeating the je ne regrette rien mantra :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8550779.stm

You want lies, deceit and expert lessons on being an "utter shite" then perhaps you should look closer to home TJ.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

I have never disagreed with the allthepies. I hold no brief for Brown the PM at all. However pointing out other peoples slimebagness does not reduce Ashcrofts.

Stevie - Member

"If he'd paid the tens of millions in tax that he should have, I wouldn't mind him claiming a few grand in expenses"

He has paid the taxes he 'should have'. He paid the taxes on his British earnings. Why on earth should he pay taxes here on foreign earnings?

Because being UK resident and paying tax in the Uk as domiciled here was what he promised to do in order to get his peerage. Read Hagues quotes.

It the deceit that is the issue - he said he would do one thing then concealed even from the leader of his party that he didn't do this.

The worst thing about all of this for me, is that Ashcroft hasn't even broken the Law.

He's altered the shape of British politics, with money hoarded away in a tax haven, (where he pays no tax at all) but obviously finds the idea of helping to fund this country's schools hospitals, and defence completely beneath him. The Conservative party then engaged in a 10 year cover up, that tells you all you need to know about how they'd run the country. By taking Ashcroft's money callmedave tells us he'd rather protect private interests over the public good. Made to choose between the public purse and the tiny minority interests of the super-rich, he chose that latter. I think it's safe to assume that if he gets to no 10, he'd carry on.

This revolting behaviour that both Labour and the Conservatives indulge in, is perfectly legal...The rest of us pay our taxes in full on time, and these parasites (some-one who enjoys the benefits of something without paying their share) who can shout louder than us with donations get away with paying nothing.

Tax Justice Network estimate that rich individuals "avoid" 13bn a year. (The top third of Britain's top 700 industries have paid no tax at all) Thats enough to pay off the deficit in 7 years.

I've started to rant, sorry

Tax Justice Network estimate that rich individuals "avoid" 13bn a year. (The top third of Britain's top 700 industries have paid no tax at all) Thats enough to pay off the deficit in 7 years.

i think that alone is enough to make one very angry

If you want to retain American citizenship, you pay American taxes, or you can't be a citizen. You're allowed to earn $50,000 abroad tax free, then where-ever you live in the world you pay US tax rates, or renounce your rights as a US citizen. The IMF actually classified the UK as a Tax Haven for foreigners up to 2008 because of the craven lack of requirment for the very very rich to pay taxes in this country even though they enjoy the benefits of living in a safe, sophisticated 1st world country, even now all they have to pay is £30,000.

And councils are laying off workers, and complaining about the cost of schools and teachers.

Still ranting, again apologies.

last one.

Remember, the Conservatives want us to believe that the ONLY way of coming out this recession is to slash spending, this is unnecessary if the super rich (like Ashcroft, the man they helped for 10 years, hide money from US) pay their fair share.

Enough, I'm off to do more work, so I can pay more taxes.