MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38144598 ]Money is made from (amongst other things) pigs?[/url]
Interesting, I didn't know what. I'm presuming it's a storm in a teacup though if it is indeed "trace" amounts.
Capitalist pigs?
Last time I checked vegetarians tend not to be that cool with tallow either....
Bet you claim ignorance that a lot of beer isn't vegetarian too 😀Interesting, I didn't know what.
Anyone disgusted by their porky-fivers can send them to me to look after.
Yes, you're probably right in that the distinction I tried to make between vegetarians who wouldn't eat the money and vegans that wouldn't use it that is probably not the correct distinction. I'm not good on things like that.Last time I checked vegetarians tend not to be that cool with tallow either....
There's a number of religions that have a thing about animal fats of various types too...
Yes, you're probably right in that the distinction I tried to make between vegetarians who wouldn't eat the money
[img] 
[/img]
I don't even think many carnivores would eat it either. Personally I draw the line at chocolate pennies. Paper money is reserved for lighting cigars.
Not exactly difficult to not use fivers in this day and age though is it. Given the number of other things that Vegetarians and Vegans do to maintain their decision to abstain from animal products this hardly seems to be all that significant. Where do you really spend cash these days?
Where do you really spend cash these days?
Same places as ever.
Where do you really spend cash these days?
In the butchers. Plenty of it with their prices, too.
I went to a gallery in Rotterdam once that had cabinets full of items made with pig bits, i recall shampoo, bullets, lots of plastics amongst may other daily use things
Where do you really spend cash these days?
At the weekend I spent actual cash in the chippy & the pub. The pub has a 'no cards under £10' policy and a drinks are £8 something.
I went to a gallery in Rotterdam once that had cabinets full of items made with pig bits, i recall shampoo, bullets, lots of plastics amongst may other daily use things
Did they have bacon, I like bacon.
the distinction I tried to make between vegetarians who wouldn't eat the money and vegans that wouldn't use it that is probably not the correct distinction.
I can't speak for all vegetarians (in fact, I can speak for a total of 1) but it's the distinction I'd have made. I'm fine with it because I don't eat five-pound notes.
Bet you claim ignorance that a lot of beer isn't vegetarian too
I'm well aware what finings are. Some brewers still use animal-based products (I'm less fussed about egg white than isinglass though), many don't. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell.
There's a number of religions that have a thing about animal fats of various types too...
That's a very good point actually. I can't imagine the Asian communities being overly thrilled at having to handle money with piggies in it.
Could we not use this tactic to put an end to funding the Taliban - make guns / bullets and money out of pork ?
Trimix - I have a vague memory about a news story stating that Israel were looking at deploying some sort of pig deterrent on buses to deter suicide bombers. Interesting as pigs aren't a kosher food in Judaism. Not sure how ordinary Muslims or Jews travelling on the buses would feel about it either. Obviously it could all be internet nonsense and/or my addled brain.
Edit: found it http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3484277.stm
Haven't there been some pretty serious riots in India over things containing tallow?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857#Tallow_and_lard-greased_cartridges
Nah, it's easy if you've heard of the internet 😀Some brewers still use animal-based products (I'm less fussed about egg white than isinglass though), many don't. The problem is that it's very difficult to tell.
[url= http://www.barnivore.com ]http://www.barnivore.com[/url]
Generally most shit beer (lager, etc) doesn't use finings (probably because they're filtered) and most real ale does (although some are plant based).
I'm vegan(ish) and I'd much prefer money not to be made out of animal products, but I'm not the boss of the world and I'm not in charge of printing money. I am only in control of what I think and what I do (or don't do). I think killing animals to make money is a bit odd, which is why I'm trying to live a vegan lifestyle, but it's just one more thing in the list of silly reasons animals are used, abused or killed every day.
But then, from another point of view, animals are bloody useful and animal byproducts are a cheap, relatively renewable alternative to increasingly finite hydrocarbon-derived products.
Could we not use this tactic to put an end to funding the Taliban - make guns / bullets and money out of pork ?
Seems plausible, works for swords.
I think killing animals to make money is a bit odd
I suspect they're not killed solely for tallow. They'll be killed for food and leftover fat is just a byproduct. So arguably, you're being more animal-friendly by having less of it go to waste...
I suspect they're not killed solely for tallow. They'll be killed for food and leftover fat is just a byproduct. So arguably, you're being more animal-friendly by having less of it go to waste...
Fair point.
Where do you really spend cash these days?
Wherever there's something I want to buy, and I have the cash available to buy it.
I think killing animals to make money is a bit odd
It really shouldn't be necessary to have to explain what the words 'trace amounts' actually means.
It certainly does NOT mean that something is made from animal products.
The Bank of England so far has adopted a sanguine approach to the furore: "We can confirm that the polymer pellet from which the base substrate is made [b]contains a trace of a substance known as tallow[/b]," it said in a statement.
It really shouldn't be necessary to have to explain what the words 'trace amounts' actually means.
It certainly does NOT mean that something is made from animal products
Alright, alright...Jesus!!!
I obviously don't think that there's a slaughterhouse behind the royal mint, do I?
I was trying to make the point that, as a vegan, I would prefer such things not to be used. I then went on to point out that I am only one person, and have no control or influence over such things and even offered an alternative point of view. But I suppose picking those parts of my post out for quoting didn't give you cause for capitalisation, eh?
Patronising ****.
[b]It really shouldn't be necessary to have to explain what the words 'trace amounts' actually means.[/b]
It certainly does NOT mean that something is made from animal products.
I think you might have to. I've seen nothing in the text I have read that indicates if the 'trace amounts' is indicative of an accidental contaminate from some other use of the machinery or is an intended constituent ingredient in the polymer. The former would make your 2nd second sentence true, the latter not so much.
I wonder if the vegans who take umbridge at trace tallow in fivers also take issue with squished dinosaurs being used to make their plastic bank cards?
[url= http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303456104579489510784385696 ]Dirty Money[/url]
There are probably more animal products attached to paper money even if they are not used in the production...
I wonder if the vegans who take umbridge at trace tallow in fivers also take issue with squished dinosaurs being used to make their plastic bank cards?
You really struggled to come up with something didn't you?
as a vegan, I would prefer such things not to be used.
As a veggie for most of my life nor would I. It seems... pointless and avoidable. But if it is indeed a trace element it's tricky to argue against.
If it's a case of "this money may contain traces of tallow" in the same way that Oreos "may contain traces of milk" then I don't think there's anything to argue with.
I was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that tallow was part of the process involved in making the notes. In this case, I would be prefer it not to be. Not that there's anything I can do about it anyway.
Clear enough?
It's all bollocks, UK cereals and some vegetables are routinely fertilised with pug slurry and I don't hear any jews/muslims/vegans complaining.
who knew your circle of friends was so diverse
fertilised with pug slurry and I don't hear
He knew such little dogs could produce enough.
enfht, as a vegan, I would very much prefer animal products not to be used in those situations and do everything in my power to find alternatives wherever possible. I'm not trying to make everyone else do things differently, I'm just choosing to live my life a different way as best I can. I'm not going to get outraged about £5 notes or pig slurry, I'm just going to avoid using them, as is my right in our society.
I barely use any cash these days, go for months without needing it, just about everyone accepts contactless payments now...
who knew your circle of friends was so diverse
I sense the presence of a free thinking lefty. I accept that my post doesn't fit your narrative so may I apologise for the headache I've caused, best go lie down snowflake.
Clearly I in no way touched a nerve with you and once more your arguments are powerfully logical and show you in a great light
Why are some of you non-vegans getting so upset?
As far as I can tell, no-one's had a go at your way of life on this thread.
Pot, kettle.
Come on...
You need to try harder than that.
Maybe try an actual response to what's been said.
from https://islamqa.info/en/114129
We should add here that this is also the view regarded as more correct by the Council of Senior Scholars in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In their book al-Buhooth al-‘Ilmiyyah (3/467), they said:
[u]Similar to that is the purity of that which has been fertilized of trees and crops with impure things; their fruits are permissible because of the transformation of the impure substance.[/u] Another similar case is the purity of alcohol which turns into vinegar; it is permissible to consume it, sell it, drink it and use it in other ways, after it had been alcohol which it is haraam to drink, sell or buy, and that is because of this transformation.
New fivers are made form Polypropylene; the same as a lot of food packaging.
Tallow is used to lubricate the die that produces the pellets of PP that the base film stock is made from.
I would be more concerned as a vegan about the film that wraps the apples I eat, or the bags my crisps came in, as they actually touch food.
But I doubt trace amounts can be really detected...
Why would vegans worry, they are so weak from their lack of meat diet that they would never be in a position, influence or strength at work to earn that sort of money.
🙂
So is this why belly pork has become more expensive over the last few years?
ScottChegg, you highlight the main problem. Animal products are concealed in so many things that it's impossible to be totally vegan. I do my best with the knowledge I have and every day I learn something new to avoid.
"trace amounts" is a pretty broad term though, and has been used to describe all sorts of things.
'Vegan' to STWer is like 'Muslim' to Sun reader? Discuss...
Presumably vegans use petrol and crude oil based products (genuine question by the way as I'm not one)?
Presumably vegans use petrol and crude oil based products (genuine question by the way as I'm not one)?
Most vegans I know choose to be vegan because they don't wish to exploit animals and/or believe that their diet is mostly or entirely healthier than the typical meat-eating one. They don't wish to exploit animals for a number of reasons, key reasons being farming (intensive or otherwise) and slaughter. So this ethical stance/preference effectively rules out buying/eating flesh, dairy or wearing leather etc. I'm sure some tiny proportion of vegans out there (the more religious ones?) treat any animal by-product as some kind of kryptonite - yet surely lifeforms that died billions years ago and became a chemical product is probably not one of them. Although they probably live in an oxygen tent in fear of inhaling micro-organisms and tiny insects. Wait ... they don't??? Gah the flaky hypocrites I want my money back.
[meathead revenge] I wish they'd make petrol out of fresh baby pigs then I could get my own back on stupid Muslims and vegans by driving a muscle car up and down outside of their houses!! Moohaha ha. Ha. [/meathead revenge]
Page 2 and no one has mentioned bacon yet. Standards are slipping.
Do vegans suffer from poor eyesight too?dazh - Member
Page 2 and no one has mentioned bacon yet. Standards are slipping.
Ah spotted it! That's a relief, I thought people might be growing up a bit. My eyesight is shite though, more due to age than diet sadly.
Speaking for myself of course, while animals are obviously not killed to make fivers (or Haribo or Durex etc..), the sale of the 'by-products' only make an industry I refuse to support more profitable, so I will avoid those too.
It's also a bit of a cop-out to resign onesself to using these products just because that's how it is. Many tyres (car and bike) use animal derived stearic acid in their manufacture. Some don't, however, and after a bit of emailing around there's a list of manufacturers who have confirmed they don't use it*. I've noticed an increasing number of breweries putting the vegan society stamp on their products too.
* In the unlikely event of anyone being interested, they are Bontrager, DMR, Kenda, Maxxis, Michelin, No Tubes, Panaracer, Schwalbe, Specialized, Vittoria, Vredestein
"trace amounts" is a pretty broad term though, and has been used to describe all sorts of things.
I've just found this (on the Internet so it must be true):
[i]The note is polyproylene (which is made from petroleum) but usually has stearates added as a moulding lubricant which can be derived from animal products at the [b]100 parts per million[/b] level. If you ask a supplier they will not deny that they use animal drived stearates just in case they ever need to and of course they may use it on a regular basis.
[/i]
So that's, what, 0.01% of the banknote?
More GCSE maths,
The new fiver is 125mm x 65mm, or 8125mm^2.
100 ppm of 8125m^2 gives you 0.8125. So if you divided up all the constituent parts, that gives you a surface area of animal-based lubricant of 0.8125mm^2. Assuming it all stays in the banknote, I imagine a percentage of it will remain with whatever it's lubricating against.
I can feel a business venture coming on cleaning up these fivers and selling them on to concerned vegans (or vegetarians wanting to eat them 😀 ) at a slight markup.
Money laundering, as it were.. 😆
If you ask a supplier they will not deny that they use animal drived stearates
Yeah, but they do deny it. See my post above re. tyres.
The Maths!Tallow is rendered cow or mutton fat, but for the sake of argument let's go with cows here.
How much do cows weigh? Between 1,100kg for a male (bull) and 720kg for a female. So, on average, a cow weighs 910kg.
The body fat content of an average cow is 25 percent. Therefore, the amount of fat in an average cow's body is 227.5kg.
How many kilograms of this fat is contained in offcuts you could use to make tallow? About 40kg, according to a man at the James Elliott butcher in Islington.
How much tallow is used in one note, according to the Bank of England? "A trace", which chemically means less than 100 parts per million, or 0.01 percent. A polymer consultant I called confirmed that the tallow present in a given polymer would be a fraction of a single percentage.
New £5 notes weigh 0.7g, therefore there is roughly 0.00007 g of tallow present in one £5 note.
How many fivers are in circulation now, and therefore will be around by May of 2017, when all the old paper ones have been phased out? 329 million notes.
To work out how much tallow will be used in total in all of these fivers, we need to multiply 0.00007g by 329 million, which gives us 23,030g, or 23kg.
And if you get about 40kg of tallow-worthy fat from the average cow, how many cows would you need to make every single £5 note in circulation?
JUST OVER HALF OF ONE COW
Panic over, I can go back to eating fivers now.
Yay!
Does this mean we won't be strapping people to the mouths of cannon before discharging them?
Its made the BBC News, seems there is going to be a solution to this "problem"
The solution is to use Scottish banknotes as they are already vegan friendly
It's not just Vegans. If there is beef or pork used it could be offensive to both Hindu and Muslims.
Just because you might have a viewpoint (or no view on a subject) why should someone with strong convictions suffer?
Opportunity for schadenfreude?
You're right, of course. It was a bit short-sighted of them.
Just because you might have a viewpoint (or no view on a subject) why should someone with strong convictions suffer?
If you have stupid convictions then it's entirely your problem.
[i]The solution is to use Scottish banknotes as they are already vegan friendly [/i]
*ahem*
[img] 
[/img]
Oh the ironyIf you have stupid convictions then it's entirely your problem.
😆
Oh the irony
Eh? afaik I'm conviction free.
What about the conviction that stupid convictions are stupid?
This place has become a parody of itself. It's like a competition to see who is the most self righteous arse. The irony being that there can be no winner.
It's the taking part that counts. 😉
What about the conviction that stupid convictions are stupid
Ah, I see. I don't believe religion is stupid. I know it is.
Equivalent to a maximum of 0.003% per banknote. Won't there likely be more animal fat on a note as a result of general circulation? Think of all the chippies/McDonalds/butchers etc these will get passed around. Typical over reaction.
Over reaction, yes, but typical of what?
but typical of what?
This day and age.
why is it an over reaction to ask them to not put meat in money?Typical over reaction.
I can easily understand why a meat eater won't care but it must be equally obvious why those who dont use or eat meat do object.
Who exactly is over reacting here?
There is probably as much meat in the vegetables that you eat.
are you planning on addressing the point i made or do you just wish to speculate widely on the meat content of veg and the contamination of notes whilst telling us others are over reacting?
Who exactly is over reacting here?
Looks like you are.