[Closed] "Modern cars are too powerful for UK roads"

FeeFoo - Member
...Anyone who thinks utilitarianism an 'interesting' car is the way to a rewarding life needs shooting. (It'd be the intellectually kindest thing to do)
beautifully put

It's as beautifully put as, "no, you are!" Well done.

If you're happy in your modest car, good luck to ya. Some of us prefer summink a bit more fun, that's all.
Not too hard to understand, is it?

Have you ever tried to sync your phone to your computer? Imagine trying to sync a Ford to a Toyota? Sounds like a recipe for death on a stick.

Make sure things are engineered to aviation standards or whatever.
It won't be perfect. There will still be crashes.

But there will be a lot less than there are now.

[quote=jimjam ]I don't have a problem with progress or technological advances.

Yet you do have a problem with people writing "modern cars are too powerful"! Despite the fact that nobody has written that (in the way clearly implied by your OP) before this thread, and despite the premise in the OP that modern cars aren't any faster being wrong. Though of course pointing that out is pedantry.

[quote=FeeFoo ]Some of us prefer summink a bit more fun, that's all.
Not too hard to understand, is it?

No, I don't think anybody is having a problem understanding that some people like having fun in cars on public roads.

jimjam - Member
Sounds like we need to ban any bike over 25cc.
It would make sense.
But first they would have to catch us...

Shouldn't be a problem, having the police waiting outside A&E should catch quite a few 😉

It's a bit like skiers. Good skiers ski faster and have less accidents than poor skiers skiing slowly

That's certainly true and you could probably say the same thing for mountain bikers too. I'm a lot better at skiing than I am at mountain biking and rarely crash while skiing despite going a lot faster (in relative terms) than I do on my bike. I've crashed on the bike numerous times despite being relatively slow. I'm simply not as good at it and have less experience.

As for driving, I haven't crashed in 30 years despite having access to lots of powerful cars and covering maybe 600,000 miles. Make of that what you will. Maybe I'm just not driving fast enough or could do with another couple of hundred horsepower?

One thing is for sure, car's would be seriously boring if some people on here had their way.

Bikers don't need a chip on their shoulder. They have have the only vehicles capable of being driven properly fast on interesting roads.

This is a good perspective on bike v car

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=25255

The gist is that cars are much easier to drive fast than bikes and with much less risk too. Only time I've ever had a bike come past me in a quick car is in a straight-line on the motorway. When it comes to "interesting" roads very few bikers have either the skill or balls to keep up with a quick modern car, let alone pass it.

The car versus bike thing is an odd one, ultimately the fastest car is quicker than the fastest bike...

....but your chances of encountering a Zonda, Veyron, Enzo etc on the road are slim, they are very expensive and quite rare.
Fast motorbikes are common as muck though...and cheap.

In all my years of riding bikes I've never 'played' with a car driver and come off second best...I'm no riding God either, I ride in jeans so don't do the hanging off, crazy lean angles thing.

Most people consider a quick car to be something like an Impreza, an M3 etc and most drivers can't get the most out of these cars... even a well driven example is easy enough to sit behind until the next straight and then a bike is past in the blink of an eye.

Remember you're talking about machines with a 0-60 of 3 secs, 0-100 in 6 secs, 0-150 in 10 secs and a 10 second 1/4 mile....with Japanese reliability, cheap road tax, 40mpg and a brand new price usually cheaper than most small hatchbacks.... bikes are awesome and the ability to filter through traffic adds a 'real world' example of why a bike is usually faster in everyday situations.

"Have you checked the sales figures? The Horribly powerful Golf R sold about 1000 units in four years. I can't find an exact figure for total numbers of Golfs sold in the same time period but it'll be in the hundreds of thousands. People obsess about scary cars and get their knickers in a twist because faster cars make better newspaper articles and tv programmes."

There's going to be more Golf R's around due to the cheap leases £240 a month. I've ordered one mainly to hand the M Sport/ S Line diesel boys and the fat RRS/Q7/X5 boys their arse when they get too big for their boots.

I ride a slow bike, can still get from A to B faster than any car in the cluttered south of england. This despite cars often coming past me on dual track roads, they soon get stuck behind a car struggling to do 50 in a national.

Deviant - cracking post at the top of the previous page.

Northwind - Member

That sounds like a ****ing terrible idea to me tbh. Do I want to be knocked off my bike by someone doing 40 or 35? Well I'd rather not be knocked off tbh. Nope, just accept it, 40 or 35.

nicely put, and i agree with you, it would be a little like admitting defeat.

but it (lower and stricter limits) would be easy to implement. Achieving a world where no-one crashes is a bit harder.

i'm off out on my road bike in a bit, i'd rather the people who might drive into me were doing 40 or less, than 'whatever they feel like' - which is the case at the moment.

+1 for Deviant

Nice to hear the view from the sharp end.

TBH I've reached the conclusion that we've lost the plot on driving and gone mad with stupid road layouts/roundabouts/speed cameras all the supposed safety features when in fact we should be looking at making drivers more capable at driving and more aware of what they are doing and the consequences of their actions.

In all my years of riding bikes I've never 'played' with a car driver and come off second best...I'm no riding God either, I ride in jeans so don't do the hanging off, crazy lean angles thing.

Well tbh I always cut MC'ers some slack as they don't come off the best if it goes pete tong.

No, I don't think anybody is having a problem understanding that some people like having fun in cars on public roads.

I'm guessing the subtext to this is, "don't have fun on public roads".
I think it's the definition of fun you may be having a problem understanding.

In all my years of riding bikes I've never 'played' with a car driver and come off second best

Well good for you but I hope you stay alive. It's thanks to reckless motor bike riders who keep killing themselves that most of the good driving roads in the peaks are now limited to 50mph with average speed cameras everywhere. Effectively it's spoiled the road for people like me who like a good swift drive but without going mental.

So Daveky you've ordered a Golf R to hand other drivers their arse's?

I'm an advocate of fast cars, swift driving, making progress, having fun and driving as quickly as conditions will allow (with a good margin for error or other drivers error) but I can't condone racing on a public road. Along with the biker above it's this sort of behaviour that gives a bad name for all people who often drive quicker than the posted limit and could eventually lead to speed limits being reduced for all of us once the PC and Health and Safety brigade get their teeth into the problem.

deviant - Member

The car versus bike thing is an odd one, ultimately the fastest car is quicker than the fastest bike...

....but your chances of encountering a Zonda, Veyron, Enzo etc on the road are slim, they are very expensive and quite rare.
Fast motorbikes are common as muck though...and cheap.

In all my years of riding bikes I've never 'played' with a car driver and come off second best...I'm no riding God either, I ride in jeans so don't do the hanging off, crazy lean angles thing.

Most people consider a quick car to be something like an Impreza, an M3 etc and most drivers can't get the most out of these cars... even a well driven example is easy enough to sit behind until the next straight and then a bike is past in the blink of an eye.

A few points come to mind. First off, whilst something like a Panigale might have the power to weight ratio of a hypercar it's through one driven wheel. Trying to hustle something like an Agera R along a back road would be hard enough, never mind if it had half the grip or twice the power again.
Any rider who's talented enough to exploit a bike like that will more than likely be transporting it around in the back of van to race tracks or road circuits. Put Mr. Midlife Crisis weekend rider on a Panigale or a Ninja H2 and ask him to keep up with a STI, GTR or Carrera 4s on a mountain road and he's gonna drop it sharpish. Throw in a skiff of rain and forget it, well the biker won't even have left the house so it's not really an issue.

[quote=FeeFoo ]I'm guessing the subtext to this is, "don't have fun on public roads".
I think it's the definition of fun you may be having a problem understanding.

Plenty of examples on here (quite a few just on this page) where "fun" clearly involves driving fast.
But why don't you give us yours?

[quote=moshimonster ] When it comes to "interesting" roads very few bikers have either the skill or balls to keep up with a quick modern car, let alone pass it.
It's strange that you talk about bikers (i.e. the human element) but cars (the mechanical element) as if all car drivers have consomethinge driving skills.

Put Mr. Midlife Crisis weekend rider on a Panigale or a Ninja H2 and ask him to keep up with a STI, GTR or Carrera 4s on a mountain road and he's gonna drop it sharpis

Bollocks a halfway quick bike would easy keep up with those cars on a mountain road unless the car driver was going crazy and having no regard for other road users. Keeping it sensible whilst going pretty quick is easy on a bike in comparison to a car. The would have easy enough poke between 0-70 mph to keep up.

Not in my experience.

Have you ridden bikes much?
Which mountain roads have you flown down/up in a manner to quick for a sports bike to keep up? What were you driving?

Let's just say after a very cheeky overtake (I had slowed to let an old lady in a micra turn off the road) and some choice hand gestures I caught and re passed a Ninja ZX, GSXR-1000 and a KTM 950 supermoto. All within the speed limit on a winding country road. You won't know the road unless you're familiar with Co. Donegal?

Hero! No way would any car pass those bikes within the speed limit if they were trying. Maybe they just thought you were a cock and let you get past before you killed them.

Plenty of examples on here (quite a few just on this page) where "fun" clearly involves driving fast.
But why don't you give us yours?

I already did a few pages back.
A bit of overtaking, a bit of pointless accelerating, etc.
Not necessary, not making up time, just for the fun of it. I know there are people who I've overtaken, who are one or two cars back at the next set of lights or roundabout smugly saying to themselves, "humph, didn't get you very far did it?".

They miss the point. Do you?

Caught and passed a GSXR thou' [i]within the speed limit[/i]?

For a race to be a race both parties need to know that it's a race 🙂

Jimjam do you drive a Veyron?

anagallis_arvensis

Maybe they just thought you were a cock and let you get past before you killed them.

Yeah. I was being the cock, politely waiting for an elderly woman to make her way along at her pace while three bikes with race cans swarm around the back of me. They were on their way back from a bike show, acting like ****s.

Hero! No way would any car pass those bikes within the speed limit if they were trying.

The road was greasy. Even full blown WRC cars struggle to top 120mph on it in the dry so breaking the speed limit on it in a normal road car is difficult. You might hit 80 for a split second before you'd be one the brakes. I was surprised at how quick they were through the corners but as soon as the corners opened up the car had them. It was easy to pass them since their collective balls shriveled pretty quickly.

anagallis_arvensis

Jimjam do you drive a Veyron?

No, just a bland looking family estate car. Most people don't even know what brand it is, no badges, no stickers. No outward signs that would lead anyone to suspect anything.

So now we have Jimjam and Daveky clearly stating they race on public roads.

On narrow, winding roads bikes are quicker:
[url= http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2011/july/jul2111-isle-of-man-tt-subaru-impreza/ ]Bike versus car Manx[/url]

When cycling I'm rarely if ever put in danger by bikers despite having a home on one of their favourite peg-grinding roads.

Edukator

On narrow, winding roads bikes are quicker:
Bike versus car Manx

So a near stock, and relatively ordinary road car against works bikes?

Now check out the stage times and average speeds for group n and full works Subarus; a bit quicker but still in the same ball park. The bike is 16mph faster around the Manx circuit, that is an enormous difference.

Links? At any rate an Impreza won't have the grunt or gearing to set a fast lap on that course, it's not exactly a winding road.

jimjam - Member
The road was greasy. Even full blown WRC cars struggle to top 120mph on it in the dry so breaking the speed limit on it a normal road car is difficult. I was surprised at how quick they were through the corners but as soon as the corners opened up the car had them. It was easy to pass them since their collective balls shriveled pretty quickly.

It sounds like they were enjoying themselves on the corners but slackening off for the straights. A well known (to bikers) method of retaining your licence while enjoying a powerful bike. The fun is over when the corner "opens up". They were probably letting the mobile chicane past for some more fun at the next corner, or what I used to do, let the radar trap bait go first.

No need, been there, done that. You do realise that the electric bike record around the TT couse is faster than the Higgins car record.

#I won't edit but Jimjam has again if my post seems a bit odd.

epicyclo -

It sounds like they were enjoying themselves on the corners but slackening off for the straights. A well known (to bikers) method of retaining your licence while enjoying a powerful bike. The fun is over when the corner "opens up". They were probably letting the mobile chicane past for some more fun at the next corner, or what I used to do, let the radar trap bait go first.

Yeah I guess you've got a deeper insight than someone who was there, even though you only have a brief somethingion you read on the internet and I've deliebrately neglected to add some key facts.

jimjam - Member
Yeah I guess you've got a deeper insight than someone who was there, even though you only have a brief somethingion you read on the internet and I've deliebrately neglected to add some key facts.

No. Just a very familiar scenario.

Turkey up your arse on the straights where you're trying to keep close enough to legal to avoid radar or cameras, let him past, zap him on the corner, button down for the straight again, inflamed turkey comes howling past, repeat next corner and ad infinitum for more fun until turkey self combusts.

They were playing with you. Don't believe me? Ask any biker. 🙂

They were more interested in the view and riding safely than beating you if you overtook them, Jimjam. Stock bikes are nearly as fast as race bikes. The stock record is within seconds of the superbike record on the TT couse and the stock bikes are less modified than Higgin's car. Watch to the end:

Everyone knows a GSXR Thou is quicker than 98% of cars stuff on the road in a straight line - why would the rider risk their licence / life trying to hold off someone in an estate with a point to prove?

If it was me I also wouldn't be keen to race some random with a death wish.

Hooning on a greasy road? Nice work.

🙂

Fantastic ,some of you guys really do deserve an A for effort. I just hope you work in the creative industries since you can so easily imagine being quicker than a car you know nothing about, on a road you've never seen, in conditions you have no information about. 🙂
And just for reference when I said they were quick through the corners I meant quicker than I expected, but not blistering.

jimjam - Member
...And just for reference when I said they were quick through the corners I meant quicker than I expected, but not blistering.

When the cat plays with the mouse, it doesn't kill it straight away.

Or maybe they were on 125s.

We only know what you told us 007.

Tell us about your car then Jimjam. I've never driven a road-legal car that would get near a bike. Edit: in fact I've never driven a car that would get near a bike.

honestly I think if retesting was introduced then half the drivers on the road would end up having their licences taken away,

Good.

it's not practical and would negatively impact on the economy, overload public transport and lead to social unrest.

More people on public transport = more money being spent on public transport = improvements to the infrastructure and cheaper fares. What's not to like?

Also, I do think we need to stop this nonsense where people get lenient sentences because they need their cars for work.

I don't actually think that's the case. If you're eligible to lose your licence but doing so would be deemed "unnecessary hardship" then you may escape a ban, but you'll get a hefty increase in the fine instead.

No, I don't think anybody is having a problem understanding that some people like having fun in cars on public roads.

You know, this keeps cropping up, and I don't buy it.

If "having fun" equates to "driving like you stole it" then yes, absolutely, the public road is no place to be having that sort of "fun." However, I fail to see why driving shouldn't be an enjoyable, pleasurable experience. If I've got to drive a few hundred miles, why should I have to do it in a miserable environment where everything I do is an exercise in frustration? What am I gaining by being a martyr?

For a while I had a normally aspirated diesel Fiesta as a company car, and every time I went anywhere in it it was just depressing. Sure, it got me from A to B, but it was a constant battle to keep the thing moving. It bounced around the motorway like a pea in a whistle and heaven forbid you should encounter a slight incline. I'd regularly be doing 70mph on the motorway, the road starts going uphill gently and by the time it's levelled out again I'm doing 50 with my foot to the boards and downshifting in a desperate attempt to not to go any slower.

How is that in any way preferable to driving a bigger car with more presence and stability, comfy seats, various gadgetry which affords me more concentration on the road (eg, automatic lights, automatic wipers, cruise control) and enough grunt that I can reach 70 on a slip road and maintain the speed limit without having to redline the shite out of it? Where's the downside to something that frees up my brain for more observation and forward planning because I'm not spending all my energy in battling with the hateful bloody thing just to keep it going in a straight line? Does it make me a better driver when I've got a vehicle that I'd rather open a vein than drive anywhere in it?

No, if it's all the same to you, I'll have a car that's fun to drive, where "fun" equates to comfort and pleasure and being able to spend some time improving my driving, thinking about road position, anticipating what other people are doing, and working out what I'm going to do next.

Edukator - Troll
Tell us about your car then Jimjam. I've never driven a road-legal car that would get near a bike. Edit: in fact I've never driven a car that would get near a bike.

I've been scratching my head trying to think of anything like that too - other than exotica.

Cougar - Moderator

I don't actually think that's the case. If you're eligible to lose your licence but doing so would be deemed "unnecessary hardship" then you may escape a ban, but you'll get a hefty increase in the fine instead.

I'd consider that massively lenient tbh- and almost a case of being able to buy your way out of a ban. And all on top of the fact you have a driver so irresponsible they got into licence-losing territory despite needing their car for work, which is not the person I want to keep on the road really.

I don't disagree; point I was making was that it's not just a case of "but I need my car!" - "oh, alright then, we'll let you off." Rather, you'd have to prove exceptional hardship, and you'd then be given a different punishment.

Whether or not you or I consider it lenient or not is neither here nor there, it's an alternative sentencing.

[quote=jimjam ]I was surprised at how quick they were through the corners but as soon as the corners opened up the car had them. It was easy to pass them since their collective balls shriveled pretty quickly.When I read your previous post I thought you were suggesting that they'd overtaken you on the straights and you'd caught them on the corners. I was prepared to give your story some credence. However, the above is just fantasy.

And all on top of the fact you have a driver so irresponsible they got into licence-losing territory despite needing their car for work,

As an aside, I was once sentenced for driving without insurance. Unbeknown to me there was a 20 minute gap between two concurrent policies, and I was lucky enough to receive a producer in that gap. It was an honest mistake, I'd no idea it'd happened until I cheerfully handed over my documents and the desk sergeant gave me the good news. "Not a court in the world would convict me" thought I. 90 quid fine and six points (some time in the mid 90s).

Add in a couple of speeding tickets over three years or some such and you'd be into licence-losing territory. Not that I'm attempting to justify my younger self's actions, but perhaps not everyone who is in that situation is a Mad Max. Plenty will be maniacs who shouldn't be on the road, but some might just be unlucky.

Tell us about your car then Jimjam

Well it's got adjustable coil overs, drilled vented discs with fast road / track pads. Lightweight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio box ... Boost controller, programmable ecu, full custom exhaust. Some other stuff too but I don't want to bore you. All external wings badges and splitters removed.
The car is only half the story though since i used to travel that road twice a day, five days a week for 4 years.

Stagea?

jimjam - Member
Tell us about your car then Jimjam
Well it's got adjustable coil overs, drilled vented discs with fast road / track pads. Lightweight flywheel, stage 2 clutch, close ratio box ... Boost controller, programmable ecu, full custom exhaust. Some other stuff too but I don't want to bore you...

Got any actual performance figures though? Let the numbers do the talking, not the spec sheet - as we used to say in drag racing (motorbikes). Sounds like you're getting close to giving a 250 a hard time.

Surely removing the wings which are supposedly to aid tyre grip at speed is a bit irresponsible if you are going to drive fast?

Sounds like you're getting close to giving a 250 a hard time.

Probably
[img] [/img]

Probably not
[img] [/img]

It sounds like they were enjoying themselves on the corners but slackening off for the straights. A well known (to bikers) method of retaining your licence while enjoying a powerful bike. The fun is over when the corner "opens up".

This.

epicyclo

Surely removing the wings which are supposedly to aid tyre grip at speed is a bit irresponsible if you are going to drive fast?

Nah, because of the gearing the car won't ever get to the speeds where they would be beneficial.

epicyclo

Got any actual performance figures though? Let the numbers do the talking, not the spec sheet

No, not really. I know what the manufacturers figures are. I have an idea, but nothing concrete. I don't have a racelogic performance meter or anything like that. It feels more than adequate.

Euro

Probably

Probably not

Wanna race Marty? 😀

Sorry I arrived late & I'm not reading the entire thread - is there a post where you revealed what your car actually is Jimjam? Or are you today's teasing troll??

I think Jimjam's been pretty clear he's not saying his car's faster than a bike- he's saying that some riders are riding with a fraction of the capability of the bike, for whatever reason, and that enables him to pass them as long as they don't try and go fast. Nothing controversial there is there?

The theory that they were taking it easy on the straights and having fun in the corners makes most sense to me, especially since they were all staying within the limit. There's not that many riders that can do corners but not straights after all so the "balls shrivelling" idea seems pretty unlikely.

shifter - Member

Sorry I arrived late & I'm not reading the entire thread - is there a post where you revealed what your car actually is Jimjam? Or are you today's teasing troll??

I'm not saying. It's not standard, so the base car is only part of the picture. What I did say though was I've driven the road maybe a few thousand times which in my humble opinion, seems more relevant.

Stagea?

Euro - Member
Probably
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Wanna race Marty?

I'm a bit big for a 250, can i borrow my mates bike?

[img] [/img]

I'm going for Legnum VR4.

Euro

I'm a bit big for a 250, can i borrow my mates bike?

Will it pass an mot with that tread depth? I've not put any pictures of the car on any form of social media where people know me personally, and many do on here. Kind of defeats the purpose of a sleeper. I've not mentioned it on Facebook I just feel weird about that. It was just a bit too powerful for it's last engine, so I'm currently having it rebuilt. I may not keep it because it's a bit savage for everyday use.

None of the guesses are far off the mark.

What I want to know is how fast it is in comparison to what you could get in the 70s? Faster than a group B rally car of that era?

Well properly fast group B cars only really emerged late into the series, 86?

i recently bought a boxter s. Took it up to 90 on the motorway and it felt a lot scarier than my old ibiza cupra. 270 bhp and ive used about 150 of them max. Its basically like my Enduro bike, ie far far more capable than I'll ever be.

I don't understand how people can get anywhere near the limits of a car like that. On a bike you can find the limit by falling off a few times. Spinning off backwards into a tree at 80mph doesn't afford you quite the same margin of error

Makes a good noise off the lights however 🙂

Well seeing as Group B was introduced in 1982 the 70's had finished 😉

Every time I see a motorbike loom up in my mirrors I hug the kerb as there is little point getting in their way and I love the sound of a bike powering past.
I've driven a few cars that would scare the living shite out of most people (me included) and they have no place on our roads in the hands of some idiot who thinks putting people in their place on the road is a laugh.

[img] [/img]
This is as close as I've been in to a group b car. With the noise of the transmission, stripped out interior, and the guy driving it you just can't compare it to any road car.

FWIW,
I've owned fast bikes before.

Rarely used all their power.
Beat some cars, got beat by others.

Never crashed on a corner or highsided or anything.

The key is to use the appropriate amount of power.

So in reference to 'are modern cars too powerful for the roads', the answer is no, as long as you don't use all of it all the time.

I presume that means you're avoiding the question again - a group B car was just an example of what you could compare it with...

If "having fun" equates to "driving like you stole it" then yes, absolutely, the public road is no place to be having that sort of "fun." However, Ifail to see why driving shouldn't be an enjoyable, pleasurable experience. If I've got to drive a few hundred miles, why should I have to do it in a miserable environment where everything I do is an exercise in frustration? What am I gaining by being a martyr?

So I could have fun in my Mondeo or indeed the 1.3 Astra I owned 20 years ago? Because both of those provide just as comfortable an environment to drive as any of the performance cars it seems people want to have (if not more so - not sure how fun it is driving something with stiff suspension on our roads). Unless of course the aim is to make progress when both might be a bit lacking. I'm getting the impression the latter is the case for.a.lot of people, even if it just means a few unnecessary overtakes where there is always some additional risk.

aracer - Member

I presume that means you're avoiding the question again -

You confused me when you said 70s group B. Like an '85 works Quattro S1 with 600bhp? A proper group b car, no absolutely not. I've never been in one but I'm sure it wouldn't.

[quote=jimjam ]You confused me when you said 70s group B.

Says the man who accused me of pedantry when avoiding another perfectly legitimate question 🙄 My apologies for not remembering exactly when group B came in, and therefore making the question too difficult for you to understand. Just to help you out, here's the question again - let me know which bit you're struggling with?

"What I want to know is how fast it is in comparison to what you could get in the 70s?"

aracer - Member

So I could have fun in my Mondeo or indeed the 1.3 Astra I owned 20 years ago? Because both of those provide just as comfortable an environment to drive as any of the performance cars it seems people want to have

I can have a ton of fun in my mondeo. But then most mondeos are a lot faster than the minimum system requirements for uk roads so we're kind of back to the same thing... Most UK cars are faster and more powerful than they[i] need[/i] to be, so where's the cutoff when it become reprehensible?

And tbh I think the cutoff is always "when the driver's a ****" rather than anything you'll find in the speclist.

That's a fair point, which I was kind of expecting somebody to make - though if we accept Cougar's suggestion that it's reasonable to have something that you don't have to flog to get up the hills at the speed limit, then mine at least isn't vastly in excess of that requirement (the Astra just about borderline). So we come back to the question of what the point is of anything faster, given that by Cougar's criteria I can have just as much fun in that as anything else on the road?

I'm sure somebody on this thread recently described Mondeos as dull to drive, though I'm guessing he wasn't using the same criteria as Cougar 😉

Aracer I can't think if any that has a comparable powertrain. Earliest thing I can think of would be the e30 m3. Would have a higher bhp per tonne and would be quicker yes.
No need to be rude

Aha, so what you're telling me is that your road car is more powerful than anything readily available in the early 80s?

Tis the 'when the driver's a dick' thing that makes the difference. If you're a dick you could drive my 22 year old Panda through a town centre at double the speed limit - yet I'm sure most people on here are unlikely to argue that 45hp is 'too powerful for UK roads'. 😯

If you're content to never use all the power for more than 2-3s at a time then a Veyron / other hypercar isn't too powerful - but that'd require superhuman effort and be apocalyptically frustrating. That said, you'd have to be a dick to drive a Veyron anyway, so it's a moot point.

So the closest car to yours configuration wise is a N/A inline 4? You mentioned a boost controller - or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

Aha, so what you're telling me is that your road car is more powerful than anything readily available in the early 80s?

No, there are plenty of faster or more powerful cars from the 80s but 4x4 cars were relatively rare, especially in hot estate form. No point comparing apples and oranges.

So the closest car to yours configuration wise is a N/A inline 4? You mentioned a boost controller - or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

No you havent got the wrong end of the stick, I am just trying to think of a fair comparison in terms of price point, power train, power to weight and category without going into silly homologation specials. I can't see past the M3 because it's a high performance version of a fairly average car.

Lancia Beta HPE Volumex? Citroen CX GTi Turbo? Volvo 740 Intercooler Turbo? I suppose the Audi 200 Avant Quattro would be the obvious comparison.

Gah, cars were so much better back in the day. Much worse, but much better as a result.

Edit Fair enough 😀 There were a few, but the e30 M3 would've eaten any of them for breakfast!

Volvo 740 Intercooler Turbo?

A friend of mine's had a few of those, very quick car with a bit of extra boost. All action no traction, but if you can find grip it's a quick car.

thooms

Edit Fair enough There were a few, but the e30 M3 would've eaten any of them for breakfast!

Yeah but stick a big boot on it, a few extra doors and the weight of a 4x4 powertrain....

This is about as close as I can think. Obviously not an estate but 4x4, turbo'd and based on a family car.

[img] [/img]

I've solved the thread!

[b]Modern cars are too powerful for dickheads.[/b]

Looks for smiley for "simpers modestly"