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without trying to convey anything about the depicted object/scene other than a direct representation within the constraints of the medium
By that rationale can we conclude that photography cannot be an art?
Would it matter if the original photograph was colour, taken by the artist or adjusted?
What if a painting wasnt painted by the artist? Is the artist then an artisan and the real painter(s) are artists or are they artisans too?
(I hope it doesnt appear I'm picking on your MrSmith, I am just interested in your thoughts that's all.)
Ropers drawings would be categorized as Natural History Illustration. These are usually used to impart information about animals and plants, fossils n stuff. So any extraneous stuff i.e. backgrounds, is left out. markings, colour, etc is emphasized. Have you done drawings of your spiders Roper?
By that rationale can we conclude that photography cannot be an art?
i'm a photographer, it's my job as well as a hobby, i don't think of myself as an 'artist', Gregory Crewdson is an artist using the medium of photography, i think his work is fantastic.
who is this 'we' you speak of? you and the others can conclude whatever you like, it makes no difference to me.
Would it matter if the original photograph was colour, taken by the artist or adjusted?
i'm not interested in the means of production, if all i see is a drawing that looks like it's copied directly from a photograph then that's all i see.
Have you done drawings of your spiders
Is that a euphemism? 😉
Turner is not new, or Rothko, Hurst, Cézanne, Modigliani, Picasso........is none of their work art anymore?
yes, it is. because of the context, e.g. the world at the time it was painted. If someone else were to do a Rothkoesque or Hurstesque work now, then it would be meaningless. Because it's already been said, maybe a bit like a cover version of a song.
lol! no, I was just wondering if Ropers enthusiasm for his spiders extended to his drawings.
By that rationale can we conclude that photography cannot be an art?
Photography in itself is not art, though photography can be art. depending on how and why the image is composed.
Modern art makes me want to rock out.
What if a painting wasnt painted by the artist? Is the artist then an artisan and the real painter(s) are artists or are they artisans too?
The person who designs and envisions the image is the artist, the other fella is just painting by numbers
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So how do you know if it by an artisan or an artist? If the only thing your judge a piece of work by is how you see it at face value, what separates the two?I'm not interested in the means of production...
Kevevs, one or two 🙂
What if a painting wasnt painted by the artist? Is the artist then an artisan and the real painter(s) are artists or are they artisans too?The person who designs and envisions the image is the artist, the other fella is just painting by numbers
How do artist like Mark Kostabi fit into this thinking? He openly paid people to think of ideas and other people to paint them. They still sell as art, are in art galleries, is he still the artist? Are the others who think of the picture or the ones who paint it still just painting by numbers?
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Turner is not new, or Rothko, Hurst, Cézanne, Modigliani, Picasso........is none of their work art anymore?yes, it is. because of the context, e.g. the world at the time it was painted. If someone else were to do a Rothkoesque or Hurstesque work now, then it would be meaningless. Because it's already been said, maybe a bit like a cover version of a song.
So should they be in a museum then?
They are not new ideas now though. Would they be better suited in a museum. At least Tate Briton rather than Tate modern
yeah, Turner n Picasso were mindbendingly new and fresh when they were doing their thing, changing the visual language forever, and proper controversial. Now they are more like fuddy duddy art "brands". . New stuff now is in the digital realm, virtual reality and such. Probably technology things done in the military or medicine or something that'll trickle down till someone with daft creative ideas can get hold of it.
who was that experimental art/internet guy? put loads of people in little cubicles all connected in a mini internet house, going loopy?
One of the most memorable things I saw was an Art graduate show where these guys had programmed a whole world that you could fly about in with an xbox controller, but it had its own wierd visual rules and looked nothing like a computer game. bonkers. all the paintings and sculptures and photos looked piss-poor and old in comparison.
mindbendingly
Is definitely a term that could be used in context given the amount of drugs most of them consumed.
So how do you know if it by an artisan or an artist? If the only thing your judge a piece of work by is how you see it at face value, what separates the two?
i don't know how do you know if it's by an artist or artisan?
what if it was painted by a 5 year old or a monkey?
how am i supposed to know if the originator of the work proclaims themselves as artist or artisan without asking them?
Blimey. It's all got a bit seriously highbrow since I went to bed.
Can we get back to the original question.
Modern Art - is it rubbish?
No. Some. Maybe. yes.
Modern Art - is it rubbish?
Surely your question is [i]'art - do I think it is rubbish?'[/i] as you have no discernible interest in art whatsoever.
And the answer to THAT question, for you anyway, is yes. Yes art is rubbish in DrRS****'s opinion.
if you are visually unaware why does it bother you if modern art is rubbish or not?
i don't know how do you know if it's by an artist or artisan?
what if it was painted by a 5 year old or a monkey?
how am i supposed to know if the originator of the work proclaims themselves as artist or artisan without asking them?
I was curious because you said...
nothing wrong in drawing from photographs, it's draftsmanship and the work of an artisan not an artist.
Blimey. It's all got a bit seriously highbrow since I went to bed.Can we get back to the original question.
Just taking the scenic route 🙂
How do artist like Mark Kostabi fit into this thinking? He openly paid people to think of ideas and other people to paint them. They still sell as art, are in art galleries, is he still the artist? Are the others who think of the picture or the ones who paint it still just painting by numbers?
depends really, If in doing that he challenges us to have exactly the kind of discussion we are having then he is being creative. if all he was doing was commissioning some one to do the creative part then, no.
So should they be in a museum then?
If you like, they should just be anywhere where people have access to them.
I'm absolutely amazed we've made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase 'visual illiteracy'* coming up.
With all the attention paid to grammar and spelling on here, I think that's quite telling 😉
* mainly from me, as i tend to shout it at someone at least once during the course of a day
I'm absolutely amazed we've made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase 'visual illiteracy' coming up.
we have spoken of 'acquired tastes' and complexity of art, but no, we haven't used that phrase. Would you like to?
"Visual Illiteracy", isn't that an 80's New romance band?
Surely the original question was actully - 'Why are people trying to find meaning in the movie inception?'
Admittedly it was an abstract take on that question, and the answers provided have been so much more fulfilling than I possibly imagined.
This could overtake the 'watch thread' that I started as a little dig at smurf-mat. That thread in contrast left me feeling a little empty.
Not really Charlie. I was only joking. There's no right or wrong n this really. And that's no bad thang! 😀
I've found this whole thread really really interesting
the empty sadness of watch threads 😥
There's no right or wrong n this really.
I take it from this that you admit that you cannot be right. A simple yes or no will do for now
the empty sadness of watch threads
the sad emptiness of watch threads 🙁
I'm absolutely amazed we've made it to anywhere near this point without the phrase 'visual illiteracy'* coming up.
I mentioned 'Visual language' near the start.
Do I get a cookie?
erm... yes.
I should really quantify that in true TJ fashion and point out that means I can't be wrong either
Is that the last word? 😉
Do I get a cookie?
I tried to send you one but you rejected it, you might have to change your internet security settings
what colour is the cookie?
I had to enable java to get coffee sent over the other day but didn't know about the cookies.
IGMC.
Some stuff needs contextualising to get it's meaning, or implied meaning, or point of view. Knowing it was made in a certain place/time, or by a certain means, or as a result of something, or in answer to something, gives the work it's meaning. Without that information, it's just a thing.
An unmade bed, wether in a grotty flat or an art gallery, is still just an unmade bed. Anything else is just superfluous art world waffle and flim-flam. If you want to believe it's 'art', then that's up to you. But be prepared for people to laugh at you for being sucked in to the 'X-Factor' style 'Cool Britania' guph.
I really can't comprehend how that talentless charlatan has the audacity to refer to himself as an artist? To me he is the physical representation of the utter shallow vacuousness of the whole Blair era Cool Brittania bollocks
Amen. For a northerner, Binners, you're really quite sophisticated... 😉
What really gets my goat, is that there are many genuinely talented artiosts out there, who get overlooked because shysters like Emin and Hirst 'create' stuff their meeja sycophants label as 'cool'. This then has the effect of discouraging younger artists from actually learning how to develop their own unique talents, and merely follow the latest 'trends'. I am aware that such trends and fashions have always existed in the world of Art, but at least in the past stuff was done what involved genuine skill and talent. An unmade bed is just taking the mick. Emin is a mediocre 'artist' at best. People like her know they'll never make money on the back of their true abilities, so instead just play the meeja game. And people like that Saatchi bloke are no better than Simon Cowell.
New stuff now is in the digital realm, virtual reality and such. Probably technology things done in the military or medicine or something that'll trickle down till someone with daft creative ideas can get hold of it.who was that experimental art/internet guy? put loads of people in little cubicles all connected in a mini internet house, going loopy?
Remember that Rokeby bloke? What a tit. 😆
erm... yes.
I win!!!
what colour is the cookie?
Depends really you can have the Realistic one, which is brown, or the Symbolistic one which is still brown, but it's not actually there. You can have the futuristic one which will be brown, you can have the Dadaist one which will also be brown, only it won't be a biscuit, though there's no reason why it cannot be. You can have the vorticist one, a nd we could talk about its colour but you really don't want to get drawn into that, or you can have the post-modern one which is fishleg
Cheers Fred. Coming from your good self, that's high praise indeed 😉
I wonder what a surrealist biscuit would look like?
Well no Binners it's got to be said.
Give Hora a slap for me would you please? No particular reason, but then no reason not to either really.
bloody Rokeby. I'll agree with you on Emin, pile of pants, quite lidderallee. All the genuine talent goes into computer games or film design and stuff. Why would anyone want to make stuff for galleries anyway??
surrealist biscuit would be draped, dripping over a branch with ants for currants.
He's got a hurty knee at the moment Fred. I'll give him a kick in that instead 😀
Rokeby. Ooh, I wanted to punch that bloke. Mind you, so did everyone else. A more pretentious tosser you couldn't possibly meet. Remember when he came into our class? Ooh, how cringemaking was that? I had to bite my lip on several occasions, and try not to laugh.
Thought he was a cyborg or something din't he? Cheezuz... 🙄
I kept expecting (and hoping) to read in the papers 'cyborg ponce beaten up in street'.
Heh! Nice one Binners! 😈
(Cackles in cruel and nasty glee)
"cyborg ponce beaten up in art class by east end yob"
I was curious because you said...[i]nothing wrong in drawing from photographs, it's draftsmanship and the work of an artisan not an artist. [/i]
that suggests i know that it is copied directly from a photograph.