[Closed] Minimum alcohol pricing and units

Aye, that was pretty stupid- she was caught right out.
But, and I never thought I'd say this about a Tory policy, anything that helps cut down on the number of folk downing frosty jack and super on a Tuesday morning is prob a good thing..
Strange how the Scottish Tories didn't support another party's bid to introduce it up here! Wonder if that's gonna change soon?

althepal - they've already changed policy in Scotland.

Just waiting to see what the Labour policy is this week.

Ah - now we have it.

Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said the Labour Party supported the idea of a minimum unit price, subject to debate about where it should be set to ensure it worked.

Be fair to May, she only got told she'd be announcing the policy yesterday after Cameron and Osborne read the post-budget papers.

It's got nothing to do with alcohol and trying to save people has it? really?

so where does the extra money go, i assume the manufacturers just increase their profits?

The row in Scotland (and the reason the Labour party vote against it) is that the increased cost goes to the retailers profits.

Mind you, they also voted against a "supermarket levy" as that would harm business profits 🙄

Goods like this should be taxed to the hilt, luxury items along with tobacco need supertax. Maybe then use some of the extra to promote healthy eating.

so where does the extra money go, i assume the manufacturers just increase their profits?

No , not at all .
the biggest retailers will take the hit . Tesco et al will 'ask' for a big discount from their suppliers when doing 2 for 1 promos , or selling a box of 24 bottles for £9.99 .
They rely on the increased volume to make up any losses , and on compliance from the supply chain .

another load of crap, ordinary people being punished due to the stupidity of the minority.

What's your tipple dazz?

another load of crap, ordinary people being punished due to the stupidity of the minority.

How's that?
Way I read it, it'll be high strength lager and cider affected the most, with the very cheapest bottles of wine up a bit. Not sure how much it'll affect your 'ordinary' people.

i dont drink but the issue is a cultural one [ binge drinking and pre loading] that minor cost adjustments wont alter.

whatever's cheapest or on special failing that, diamond white I find it goes down well on a park bench & my dog loves it too 😀

Seriously, I very rarely drink, the last time I had a pint was over Christmas. I'm just sick of all the laws, rules, whatever else penalising ordinary people due to the idiotic few, lower the price of alcohol, let all the idiots drink themselves to death. Win - win

How's that?
Way I read it, it'll be high strength lager and cider affected the most, with the very cheapest bottles of wine up a bit. Not sure how much it'll affect your 'ordinary' people

Sorry Vinny, I forgot ordinary people never drink spirits, cider or high strength lager

Unfortunately, the idiots don't slink off and drink quietly..... 😛

Junkyard - Member
i dont drink but the issue is a cultural one [ binge drinking and pre loading] that minor cost adjustments wont alter.

pre-loading is relatively new, though, right?

Relatively?

The issue I have with this, is that it will do nothing to alleviate our cultural problems. But it will impede on the lives of alcoholics. Most of them already living on the edge of poverty. Taking more of their money. And more money from their children. I hardly see it as a better step towards a more positive future...

They're talking about city centres, where people are happy to spend £50....£100....£300 on a night out... I hardly see 40p a unit making an impact. Not when bars are charging £4 a pint anyways.

And what's this 'pre-loading' term about. Like it's some dirty hit of heroin before painting the town. So Vodka's going to go up to £10, rather than the usual £9. That group of four....I'm sure they'll change their mind and go to the Opera when they see they have to pay an extra 25p each to 'pre-load'...

Absolute drivel. I'd genuinely welcome a rational and reasoned counter-argument. Rather than the dude on the radio this morning who thought a tenner was a reasonable amount to spend on a night out... Clueless.

But, and I never thought I'd say this about a Tory policy, anything that helps cut down on the number of folk downing frosty jack and super on a Tuesday morning is prob a good thing..

I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of this, although I did wonder if it might benefit smaller businesses who can't compete on price with the supermarkets but they still don't have the convenience factor of buying 12l of super cider on the weekly shop so probably not.

If it's a minimum retail price per unit then this will go into the retailer's pocket but ultimately the differential will get taxed (it's extra income and I doubt they'll be paying more wholesale so George will get a %'age to spend on hospitals etc.)

But, and I never thought I'd say this about a Tory policy, anything that helps cut down on the number of folk downing frosty jack and super on a Tuesday morning is prob a good thing..

More expensive alcohol won't stop the sort of person who drinks on a Tuesday morning from drinking though will it?

Maybe not but would it make it more expensive to the point where they could afford less of it?

I suspect not. After all if your priority is to have a cheap cider or two before your smoked salmon and scrambled egg on toast in the morning then you might just have to switch to a mid-range bread to afford the extra cider and live with the shame of not having an artisan loaf.

After all that I've decided I agree with you. 🙄

I've long thought it would be a good idea but I cannot see 40p a unit being enough to put your average binge drinker off much. so a 70 cl bottle of 40% vodka has to cost a minimum of £11.20. Still pretty cheap?

Strong (5%) lager and cheap spirits did for us when we were students!

Don't bother me, I doubt I drink 20 units year!
I do think something needs to be done about the dirt cheap stuff all the chavvy kids drink though.

the issue is a cultural one

At least in Scotland we are able to make these changes, goodness knows we need them.

Even if it does little to change the habits maybe the money could be used to fund tax cuts for the working class.

Not sure this will make any difference, but something needs to be tried. Dont drink myself, so cant really comment.

I did see someone on TV this morning saying alcohol related A&E admissions should be charged/fined say £50, which I initially thought sounded fair, but then realised I am most likely to end up in hospital with a self inflicted injury (ala bike) so is that any different? Although hopefully I would be in a more polite and not spewing everywhere. Hopefully.

ordinary people being punished

this ordinary person won't be punished no matter how high the price goes

I make my own 😉

grain:
3.000kg pale malt
0.230kg crystal malt

hops:
9g Cascade 60 mins
18g Challenger 60 mins
15g Cascade 10 mins
5g Bobek 0 mins
26 litres of water
yeast

steep grains in a mesh bag in the water in a big pan for 60-90 minutes at 64-69degC

remove mesh bag & rinse grains; add rinse water to the pan.
bring to boil
add 60 minute hops 50 minutes
add 10 minute hops and 3g "irish moss", continue boiling for another 10 minutes
turn heat off
when it gets down to 80degC, add the 0 minute hops

transfer to sterilised bucket. cool to 22degC. Add yeast. wait for 1-2 weeks. transfer into bottles, add a little bit more sugar. cap the bottles & wait 3 weeks.
Bingo, 18 litres of beer about 3.8% ABV. Want it stronger? use more pale malt.

price? as little as £8 for the 36x 500ml bottles.

As others have said, it might make it a little easier for small local pubs to scrape by when the supermarket down the road can't sell chemical lager as a loss-leader

Goods like this should be taxed to the hilt, luxury items along with tobacco need supertax. Maybe then use some of the extra to promote healthy eating.

And you don't think alcohol is taxed to the hilt ?

Alcohol duty in the UK is among the highest in the world.

And you don't think alcohol is taxed to the hilt ?

Try asking a Norwegian if ours is taxed to the hilt.

Why, are Norwegians renowned for their expertise on UK alcohol duty levels ?

UK tax rates on beer are eight times higher than in France, 10 times higher than in Spain and 11 times higher than in Germany.

Britain's beer drinkers are paying 40% of the entire beer duty bill in the European Union – despite Britain's 12% share of the total population.

http://www.eatoutmagazine.co.uk/online_article/Beer-taxes-already-among-highest-in-the-world,-warns-BBPA/12811

pre-loading is relatively new, though, right?

I guess we're we're Pre Loading I the early 90's in the student days when we had a few cans of Brew to "sharpen up" before heading out.

It's making Meths better value again. And freely available at your local DIY superstore

the issue is a cultural one [ binge drinking and pre loading] that minor cost adjustments wont alter.

I suspect its the relatively high price of beer in pubs that has increased the demand for higher strength drinks, when you have to pay so much you want more bang for your buck.

They should set two duty levels for beer, doubling when a drink is stronger than 4.5 gravity.
And change the licensing laws so that numbers are more restricted in pubs and bars to end the cattle markets that currently seem to dominate the British drinking scene.

And change the licensing laws so that numbers are more restricted in pubs and bars to end the cattle markets that currently seem to dominate the British drinking scene.

You clearly drink in the wrong pubs

Well, I don't think it's a few idiots who are spoiling it for everyone else.. Closer to 50/50 perhaps- especially at weekends!
Oh, and I don't think this is a solution to the problems, socio-economic, cultural blah blah blah..
But at least its a start..
What next though- NHS Super? Done it with Heroin/methadone so why not??

Not really followed this so can someone clarify. If it is 40p a unit then cans of Stella will basically be just short of a quid, does this mean they will no longer be able to be sold on offer? No loopholes etc? You're paying for a slab of 24 ie 24 quid but were gonna give you some free??

You clearly drink in the wrong pubs

Its not about where I drink, its about the thousands upon thousands of pubs that dominate UK town centres where the business model is to pack em in, blast out loud music and serve strong lager.

The whole scenario is clearly anti-social, and it no surprise that it creates anti-social behaviour.

I first put this graph together when Salmond first mooted the idea (in March 09 according to the image tag). Maybe I ought to update it for todays prices and the 40p minimum rate.
[img] [/img]

wrightyson:

It remains unclear how the ban on discount deals would work in practice. But Guardian analysis suggests the government's proposed minimum price alone would substantially curtail many of the high-profile drinks deals promoted by major supermarkets. Data provided by the research company Assosia, covering promotions between December and February this year, shows Tesco and Sainsbury's offered two-for-£20 deals on 20-pack crates of Strongbow cider – a sale of more than 93 units of alcohol, working out at just 21p per unit.

At 40p a unit, the two packs would have to cost a minimum of £37.30.

A deal offering 20 cans of Stella Artois – 44 units of alcohol – for £10 at Asda would become substantially more expensive, with a minimum price of £17.60.

(Obviously, the retailer wouldn't be allowed to sell 10 cans for 19 quid and "give" you the other 10 cans "free").

Its not about where I drink, its about the thousands upon thousands of pubs that dominate UK town centres where the business model is to pack em in, blast out loud music and serve strong lager.

The whole scenario is clearly anti-social, and it no surprise that it creates anti-social behaviour.

So you don't like those places. Neither do I, so I don't go in them. But I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they should be banned from existing. I'm pretty sure most people under 25 enjoy spending their time there for one reason or another - usually to try to become very social with the opposite sex.

Thing is tho I can see several loopholes being worked out by the big companies surely? There's gonna be a major outcry when ya can't get three cases of carlsberg and two of those stupid England window flags for £9.99 come June time!! 😥

At 40p a unit, the two packs would have to cost a minimum of £37.30.

Which then makes 'better' drinks made by smaller manufacturers, or a pint or two in the pub seem much better value

ernie_lynch - Member

And you don't think alcohol is taxed to the hilt ?

Alcohol duty in the UK is among the highest in the world.

So a bottle of vodka for under £10, 2l bottle of cider for £2.00.

Yes really expensive.

About time all luxury goods in this country were taxed much more heavily. Everything from Vodka to Prada handbags!

How about more tax on alcohol and fags and less on something like fuel.

I dont think people on this country realise how little we are taxed in the UK compared to many countries. Look at the tax on new cars in many EU countries will make your eyes water.

Zokes, I love "those" places and im 37 this year. I was supposed to go out last night but I just couldnt be arsed!! Think it's a case of choice when you're that bit older! When I was 25 I felt I was missing out if we weren't in amongst it a least once a week, now I just take it or leave it!

So you don't like those places. Neither do I, so I don't go in them. But I wouldn't dream of suggesting that they should be banned from existing. I'm pretty sure most people under 25 enjoy spending their time there for one reason or another - usually to try to become very social with the opposite sex.

OK there is no problem, its all just imagined, carry on as before lalalalala!

I love having a couple of pints in the pub with friends, min pricing would not ever be an issue for me regarding this even at £1 a unit.

What it would be is affect the cheap crap that most youngsters drink.

And god forbid alter hown many some people order on a friday night.

Why that is not seen as a good thing is beyond me.

MSP, earlier...

[img] [/img]

😉

stevewhyte - Member
About time all luxury goods in this country were taxed much more heavily. Everything from Vodka to Prada handbags!

where would the cutoff be for this handbag? £10 bag - OK, £20 bag - Higher tax? Would a top or mid range Mondeo be a luxury item? When a £6k car does exactly the same job?
Surely the same thing would apply to your bike, TV, carpet etc?

As you can probably tell I resent the fact that I get taxed on my earnings, then again on my savings & then have to pay tax again when buying something I've saved up for. So I should be taxed even more because I work & choose to save to have nice things around me? or should I buy cheap & buy twice?

Perhaps we should stop handing out to the people who haven't actually contributed to the country in any way, that might save a few quid.

I'm with John_Drummer, make your own!

Currently under the stairs I've got 70 bottles of various beers including:

San Francisco Steam Beer
Yorkshire Bitter
Scottish 80 shilling
Stout
Imperial Stout
Old London Porter

as well as a batch or two of Joe's Ancient Orange Mead which is ace.

All made easily for much cheapness and taste better than most offerings from the shops (though I'll admit a weakness for Biere Speciale from Tesco, 8 little bottles for 2.99 and really aren't anything speciale at all)

However, if lots more turned to homebrew I'm pretty sure the sods in charge would find a way to try and tax it.

Dazz i always feel in this global free market world you could just remove yourself to Americ where you will find many more like minded people to yourself and leave us socilest lefties to enjoy the UK.

The real issue with tax is not people who dont work and are not contrubuting its the ones who earn millions and can afford to avoid tax in all its forms. Unfortunatly anyone on PAYE hasnt got a chance.

I would be tempted to cut all income tax but raise VAT and target goods with that. Its not difficult you just make a line in the sand and consider good above the line luxury, we do it all the time with other taxes.

I think most people would consider £100+ handbag a luxury item as they would a £30k car.

I would define luxury when you are paying for the brand and not decernable increase in performance, like buying a Giant and not a Boardman mtb or a BMW instead of a mondeo.

Maybe I ought to update it for todays prices and the 40p minimum rate.

I think most people would consider £100+ handbag a luxury item as they would a £30k car.

There's a luxury car tax here in Oz, and we're so right-wing over here on occasion I wonder if I've moved to the USA instead of here!

FWIW, there's no shortage of cars in the LCT bracket on the roads, so presumably the people who can afford these cars can afford the tax too...

Isnt this a bit 'Nanny State' for the Tories? Or is it just that it only affects the plebs who don't vote Tory anyway?

stevewhyte - Member

So a bottle of vodka for under £10, 2l bottle of cider for £2.00.

Yes really expensive.

No that sounds fairly cheap by UK standards.

You'll really don't understand how the level of alcohol duty and what retailers charge customers through special deals are two separate issues, do you ?

UK alcohol duty is among the highest in the world - it's really that simple and no amount of examples of special deal changes that simple fact.

Isnt this a bit 'Nanny State' for the Tories? Or is it just that it only affects the plebs who don't vote Tory anyway?

Sounds about right. On a personal level it won't affect me either. I brew my own beer and rarely drink anything else at home other than malt whisky which is well above the 50p (or whatever) per unit.

I am uncomfortable with politicians raising the prices on products they don't buy especially when they have their subsidised bars in the house of commons. IMO nobody buys cheap cider or Special brew because they like the taste. They buy it because they are poor and it is cheap.

stevewhyte - Member

I love having a couple of pints in the pub with friends, min pricing would not ever be an issue for me regarding this even at £1 a unit.

What it would be is affect the cheap crap that most youngsters drink.

Some people can't afford to go down the pub and get involved in rounds and/or because of family commitments want to have a beer at home, possibly with friends and family. Unlike you, it is very likely to be "an issue for" for them. Specially as their incomes are more likely to be going down in real terms than going up.

And since beer consumption doesn't appear to have increased significantly in the last 35 years, and the consumption of wine, spirits, and alcopops, has, it would appear that the policy will effect the wrong target.

[img] [/img]

And since beer consumption doesn't appear to have increased significantly in the last 35 years, and the consumption of wine, spirits, and alcopops, has, it would appear that the policy will effect the wrong target.

Because this new law will only make a difference to the price of beer? I hadn't realised it was being so precisely targeted at just poor people who like a quiet pint at home 🙄

Clearly as your graph shows that it's increased consumption of wine which is the major contributor to increased alcohol consumption, they should really be targeting all the people who have a couple of glasses of wine before heading out for a fight.

It will not effect me the Tories only brought it up on Friday because of the negative reaction to the budget there is no such thing as a free lunch as people over the next day or so found out. The budget was like the old fashioned budgets of the Labour party their is no Conservative party they are the New New Labour party.

Ooh are we doing graphs?

Ok now about this one.

[img] [/img]

That graph shows since I stopped drinking regular consumption has dropped considerably, I knew I used to drink a lot but now I see just how much. Aren't graphs great.

Some interesting stats on the Beeb pages based on the proposed 50p/unit..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18060354

Shouldn't affect me at all 🙂

On reading that, the first thing that springs to mind is just what does a £3.19 bottle of Chardonnay taste like? 😯

Really £1 per unit is what it should be.

why?

Well £2.28 is duty & VAT on the Duty before you've even got to the "good stuff"

Shipping costs about 20p a bottle, if you allow for a 100% retail mark up, that leaves about 29p for the wine, the bottle, the cork and the label.

Stonking good value I say!

29p wine
29p mark up
12p VAT
20p shipping
228p Duty + VAT
= 318p

Unit cost should scale with how drunk you are. First few units £0.50 or something, then double it for every unit above. And once you're drunk enough to buy a kebab they just chuck you in a cell to cool off. Or off a cliff if that's too expensive, whatever, I don't really care.

As you may be able to tell, I'm slightly tired of drunken chimp-people bellowing, pissing, and vomiting outside my house every sodding weekend. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not a puritan, I'm more than happy for people have a drink. I'm very fond of beer, wine and single malts. Indeed, I am perfectly capable of getting thoroughly inebriated on occasion, but I've never in my life been smashed enough to urinate openly in the middle of the road at four in the afternoon with families walking past a few feet away - that's just the most recent example of what we have to put up with, from this Saturday just past. This isn't Nottingham or Cardiff city centre, I should add, this is a reasonably pleasant village in the middle of the Pennines, mostly inhabited by families and old people.

Putting up unit cost wouldn't actually stop any of this, of course, because people don't come to our pubs because they're cheap, they come as part of a railway-based pub crawl, often on stag or hen dos, so they're usually prepared to pay a fair whack to get themselves into a state. **** knows what anyone can do about it.

but I've never in my life been smashed enough to urinate openly in the middle of the road at four in the afternoon with families walking past a few feet away

Dear God! Where the hell do you live? 😯

Dear God! Where the hell do you live?

anywhere with 'Old People' 🙂

Where the hell do you live?

Marsden. There's this delightful institution called "The Ale Trail" whereby hordes of repellently drunk apes (and that's just the hen parties) are conveyed along the Transpennine rail line from Stalybridge to Huddersfield, stopping at the villages along the way in order to slosh beer down their gaping maws. It started as a CAMRA thing and was fairly civilised for a while, but now it's just overrun with lager-swilling simians. They usually have at least a couple in each village, and we're the fourth stop along so they're utterly wasted by the time they get to us. It's been getting grimmer every year. I live between the station and the village centre so we get the worst of it, unfortunately. 🙁

Apart from the pissheads it's a lovely place though, honest!

I don't get it at all. I drink the odd cheapish wine (it'll make the minimum priced wine about £4.60 a bottle IIRC) so it's not exactly the end of the world for me - it'll add about £4 a year to my budget. But I don't see how it will affect trouble drinkers. Trouble drinkers, the folk who drink the REALLY cheap strong rubbish, won't be caring about the price increase. It won't stop alcoholics drinking. It won't stop the kids on the street drinking. It might make them try harder to find more ways of getting the cash to pay for it, but I suspect that won't be through jobs. Or they'll find other drugs to "solve" their issues.

What will cheese me off is I often buy a cheap vodka or rum to put in coke for a once a week dabble at home, the price of that will now sky rocket.

If you want to make a big impact on alcohol consumption you're going to have to put the minimum price up to something notably higher than 50p/unit, go for £1 and you may see some result, but not much. It might cheese off the general drinkers but at least it shows some balls and has a chance of working.

Why increase the cost of alcohol when we could just massively fine drunks and charge people for the treatment costs of alcoholic liver disease.

SteveWhytes proposal to massively tax all luxury items would cause the economy to implode in on itself and it penalises those of us who drink responsibly.