mini budget thread

Stamp duty yawn.

There wil be no growth based on tax cuts. But it's their main tool.

Only government spending will boost growth.

Reeves up. Even more yawn. Borrowing yawn idiot.

Shut up about the OBR.

He’s doing lots of talking but I’ve not heard much that’ll benefit the poorest in society.
Plenty there to benefit all of his Tory pals though.

1p cut in basic rate of tax plus a 1.25 (?)p cut in national insurance will help the poorest I think. £2-300 all in? its obviously not as much as someone on £200k gets..

Reeves is a dummy.

Without the energy subsidy the consumer would have been paying anyway.

She's lying and doesn't understand how deficits work. The tax-payer barely ever pays the debt down. It doesn't and never will.

I can't be doing with her balance-the-books nonsense.

Come up with spending plans of your own?

Why is she talking about Biden - the democrats will never move away from trickle-down.

His quote has been overstated.

Stamp duty threshold raised to £450k for first time buyers... WTF!

1p cut in basic rate of tax plus a 1.25 (?)p cut in national insurance will help the poorest I think.

FFS the poorest don't pay tax. How can you cut something you don't pay?

FFS the poorest don’t pay tax. How can you cut something you don’t pay?

This!

I was taking "the poorest" as to mean someone working full time on minimum wage. They pay about £2k in tax & national insurance today?

Stamp duty threshold raised to £450k for first time buyers… WTF!

Those young yuppie bankers need a place to stay after smashing their now uncapped bonus pot.

So we've gone from a reckless idiot with seemingly no principles, to fiscal lunatics with disproven and outmoded economic principles that will increase the national debt and generate less govt income unless we achieve the magical 'growth' in the economy

Can't believe i'm saying this, but bring back Boris and Rishi

Stamp duty threshold raised to £450k for first time buyers… WTF!

Aimed at seats in the South of England where LibDems threaten her MPs.

Was Rishi there cheering him on?

Demolition of workers rights starts here.
I just don't get it, throwing away really easy ways to bring in money (windfall tax) which should be used to help the people who need it.
This is a massive handout to those of us who do ok or better with no tangible benefit to the country

Amazing budget for big earners.

Hes completely lying about monetary policy.

Q/E is authorised by the government.

The rich are getting the help. WTF. Conservatives and their mates again ! We need this lot out, bunch of crooks.

Amazing budget for big earners

Agreed but that pool ought to be starting to fall apart these days.

To be honest I thought there might be more bunged towards us scruffs.

I think they will lose elections with this stuff long term.

It's just too old fashioned.

So nakedly a bankers budget. He won't have to buy any drinks in his social circles for quite some time.

Economically illiterate. It would pay to read up on the Barber Boom.

The stamp duty cut doesn't seem that great in most circumstances, unless you are a first time buyer, the maximum saving is £2,500.

Still better than nothing.

1p cut in basic rate of tax plus a 1.25 (?)p cut in national insurance will help the poorest I think.

I am not sure you did think

She’s lying and doesn’t understand how deficits work. The tax-payer barely ever pays the debt down. It doesn’t and never will.

But increasing amounts of tax revenue have to go on servicing that debt (paying the interest on bonds etc.) hence, without tax rises public services and many other things suffer. The Tories are living in cloud cuckoo land thinking the economy is suddenly going to grow massively, earning enough additional revenue to more than offset this. At best, to get any growth happening in the short-term, they're going to have to keep on deregulating the financial services sector and we all know from 2008 where that ends up. Other sectors would be much much slower to invest and grow.

I’ll let him off on the banker bonus thing - it’s a bit of a red herring because (I) there have been ways around the rules for years and (II) banks have been on a much tighter regulatory rein than they used to be.

The stamp duty cut doesn’t seem that great in most circumstances, unless you are a first time buyer, the maximum saving is £2,500.

Still better than nothing.

The FTB buying my partners flat will be pleased (£440k)

Will save us £2.5k on a purchase too but the interest rate rise will take that back over the next 2 years.

The bigger picture looks like he’s sailing close to the wind.

In a service led economy which is actually operating at full employment, it should be more about encouraging investment in greater productivity.
The increased national debt is going to cost a lot more to finance, and the UK has a disproportionate amount of its national debt whose cost is determined by the inflation rate….their calculations are likely to prove a long way out.

This budget will probably be remembered in the history books for all the wrong reasons.

Probably another nail in the Tory coffin but at a huge cost to the country.

Stamp duty cut will be eaten by higher house prices what is the actual point? Oh yes, rich get richer....can't wait for it to trickle down to me!

This government has absolutely no idea on how to grow an entrepreneurial economy. There doesn't seem to be anything there to benefit a SME owner or sole trader unless i have missed something. No surprise really given the bunch in charge.

Clearing out the coffers in anticipation of losing the next election.

A quick look around,  I can't see any real support for this budget in any media.

so, a 1% tax cut benefits all, but for those most in need it barely makes a difference

I'll calc at £30K which isn't the poorest, but it's a rough average. Tax threshold is £12500 approx, so then you're paying tax on £18K approx.

1% saving is £180, so £15 a month.

For someone on £20K it's £80 a year. £7 a month.

FFS.

5% off top rate though. If you earn £151K, that extra £1K was taxed at £450, now will be £400. You only need £3.6K over the £150K and you've saved more than the average earner with that cut. Noting too you'll have also saved on the 1% cut on the basic rate too.

How is this just?

[edit - just read on]

"this will greatly simplify the tax system"

It's changing* the number on one input on the tax calculator program. What saving is that going to bring?

*or not changing seeing as it currently says 45%

The institute for economic affairs have been grooming Truss & Kwertang for years

This is all their wet dreams come true

The champagne & fois gras will be flowing in Tufton Street tonight

So what does the actual cut in NI mean?

Does that mean that funding will now be cut to the NHS ?

I can see why the high earners cut will help. Many high earners it currently isnt worth working as the money gets taken straight off you. Many of the high earners do drive employment and productivity.

Probably another nail in the Tory coffin but at a huge cost to the country.

I would be interested to see what Labour would do differently, but that would mean them having to come up with a plan first, and currently they seam incapable of doing that

This government has absolutely no idea on how to grow an entrepreneurial economy.

True, but that’s not their objective. All they want is for the proles to slave away, unable to strike, pouring wealth into the pockets of the rich.

5% off top rate though. If you earn £151K, that extra £1K was taxed at £450, now will be £400.

If you include national insurance you were paying 48.25% and are now paying 42% (I think??)

This government has absolutely no idea on how to grow an entrepreneurial economy.

Indeed. Post Brexshit, this is what we need. We need to grow, dig, build, create, make and service our own needs as a nation. Start to build a new entrepreneurial approach, which delivers more for all.

Once again I'm struck by the different approach in Scotland as we work (slowly, and not perfectly) towards a fairer, more sustainable, healthier and economically stronger nation with what's being announced in Westminster today. Today's budget again is support for the independence argument...

"This government has absolutely no idea on how to grow an entrepreneurial economy. There doesn’t seem to be anything there to benefit a SME owner or sole trader unless i have missed something."

There's quite a lot in there for SME owners and there are quite a few changes that will immediately impact what people do / spend next year.

- The cancellation of the corporation tax increase is quite a big deal. It reduces tax paid before profits are in turn paid out as dividends. In most cases SME owners may be more willing to invest in their businesses because they can get more out as net income. I can't see it in the announcement but I'm assuming that the change to top level income tax will be mirrored in dividends - with the result SME owners may draw down more earnings and in turn spend it in the wider economy.

- The cancellation of the NI uplift will save employers money - giving them more headroom to invest in their businesses or trade through the very difficult period that's still to come.

- The removal of the high rate income rate threshold will see a shift from saving into pensions to very highly paid employees taking more of their income as salary - and paying tax on it along the way. That increased wage packet will in turn be spent and sustain other jobs in the economy. Most of the increased spend will find its way back to the government through corporation tax on increased sales and VAT.

- The changes to stamp duty will likely help to sustain property sales, which in turn sustain jobs in the construction, property maintenance, building supplies, architectural services etc etc etc. sectors.

- The Regional Enterprise zones could have a transformational effect on local economies. Ref the huge shift that's occurred in other countries where this has already happened - which in some cases have see huge areas transformed from low wage / high unemployment to high wage / full unemployment.

Many high earners it currently isnt worth working as the money gets taken straight off you. Many of the high earners do drive employment and productivity.

**** off it isn't. They still take home more than half of what they earn, it was only a 5% difference for salary above £150K, from 40-45%. That's an enormous salary for a nurse, teacher, cleaner, shop worker...... not worth working because you only get to keep half of anything you earn above a threshold 6x a teacher's salary, where's my violin?

Reading Cheddar’s post above suggests that STW has reached Tory HQ

I was taking “the poorest” as to mean someone working full time on minimum wage.

Working 40 hours a week on minimum wage puts you somewhere near the 23rd percentile of earners, ie nowhere near the poorest.

Source here and here. Data from 2020

The removal of the high rate income rate threshold will see a shift from saving into pensions to very highly paid employees taking more of their income as salary – and paying tax on it along the way. That increased wage packet will in turn be spent and sustain other jobs in the economy. Most of the increased spend will find its way back to the government through corporation tax on increased sales and VAT.

as someone who is in this position I can categorically state that no it won't do any of that. I won't put less money into my pension, I'll maximise my sontributions as I always have (allowance premitting). The extra money son't go to additional spending, rather I'll either save it, invest it, or pay down my mortgage. Either way it will NOT find it's way back to the government nor will it help the real economy much. Given the state of the countries fincances this is a BAD idea as are most of the other proposals.

Removing the tapers on personal allowance and pension allowance would have been a better idea. Not because of any tax reasons, just beacuse they're annoying things to calculate!

Edit Actually I read with some relief that it won't actually apply to me as I live in Scotland. The analysis is still valid though.

Many high earners it currently isnt worth working as the money gets taken straight off you.

Try and see it as what they are taking from the pot (their salary after taxes) rather than what they are giving into the pot (their taxes).
When you forget about tax and just see that £20K come into your account each month why can't you be happy with that and why would that make it not worth working?

I earn fairly well and will benefit from the tax cut but I would rather have seen a tax increase for the likes of me while doing something to help low/no earners.

Working 40 hours a week on minimum wage puts you somewhere near the 23rd percentile of earners, ie nowhere near the poorest.

ok but the same data also suggests that even the lowest 1% still earn above the income tax threshold (12,500). I'm not sure how that can be true (surely there's a whole bunch of students and part timers in the world??) but there ya go.

<leaving aside the fact that it's predictably a ****'s budget aimed at benefitting rich and shafting the poor>
I'm intrigued that he has abolished the 45% tax rate above 150k but not the 60% rate between 100k and 120k.

I had naively assumed that people on that sort of wedge had more understanding of tax and stuff and so would realise that he's smoke and mirrors....

Or is it actually that he consciously wants to help the stratospherically rich rather than just the immensely rich?
Ie, never mind that you pay 60% tax between 100 and 120, you're now saving five grand on every £100k above £150k, which is totes awsumms innit...

Shit, I think I've just answered my own question.

It's quite terrifying that for the tories their target audience is no longer the povs on £110k, it's the ones on £230k plus.

Liz Truss' budget means that those earning a million a year will have £54,400 extra in their pockets after tax and NICs. For those earning £25,000, the equivalent figure is about £280.