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So TJ[i]again[/i], did you read the last line of my original post? If you did and understood it, you would realise I know you and people like you are out there, heroes of the road, never making a mistake, never having any cars make mistakes around you and educating us all with your greatness. So your post is wasted. Yes. Of course I ****ing reflect on what I've done, what's happened to ME and MY OWN experiences on the road over the past 30 years of commuting. Otherwise I probably would be here. What I'm saying is the bollocks you spout as someone who wasn't there, and never has ridden the same places as me, who isn't me, is what is wasted and why you are hilarious to me.
And as someone who argues a point and never changes their mind, as someone who as the reputation to all on STW as a poster who will stick to their own view without any acceptance of what others are saying (eg. the last line of my original post), maybe a little self-reflection is in order.
You can't expect the local authority to redesign that layout, it's a standard and very common one. I bet there's something about it in the Highway Code to the effect that drivers need to look out for filtering cyclists and filtering cyclists need to look out for drivers. Put it down to experience; you will be more circumspect next time.
Accidents like this happen time after time in those Russian car crash vidos - drivers steam through junctions assuming it's their right and not anticipating other drivers getting things wrong.
The cycle lanes on Leith are a really bad joke. Much safer to cycle on the road!
Of course I **** reflect on what I’ve done, what’s happened to ME and MY OWN experiences on the road over the past 30 years of commuting.
You've been on here long enough, do you ever reflect on the fact that posting up some incident where you nearly get totalled will inevitably descend into a road safety seminar chaired by TJ? 🙂
Indeed, which is why I put that last line on the OP!! 😆
NO road safety seminar from me - just a suggestion of things to consider.
I have seen you moan about near misses numerous times DezB and you shoot down everyone not just me who would make any suggestion about it. You seem to feel you have nothing to learn from anyone. I know damn well I have plenty to learn about road safety from here and I learn from both mine and others experiences
constant reflection and constant learning with the humility to understand you can learn from others is the key
for example I never used to use the centre line for filtering. I now do sometimes because of what I have learnt from others on here
eidt: or as another I took advice from folk on here about how to deal with a nasty junction. thats after 50 years of urban cycling most days - I know others can help me be a better and safer rider
Im sorry but im missing something here.
Your filtering through traffic. Come to a junction where the traffic is stopped that you are filtering past and amazed that a turning car has not seen you and is trying to make the turn (while the van is stopped)
That’s nuts. If your filtering you don’t have right of way your moving into a space that should be clear. You’ve not made sure its clear so its your fault.
I get that your in a cycle lane but at the end of the day its paint on the road. No point being right and dead? Why don’t people understand his?
Another hero ^^ cheers for the contribution.
WELCOME 🙂
Tbf Dez, it does sound like you were just passing the junction at normal speed, and not particularly being too aware of your surroundings.
seosamh77
careful now - you don't want to be another know nothing internet hero!
Another hero ^^ cheers for the contribution.
This is a forum. And you have form. Your last line of the op is not going to stop people commenting on their approach to an incredibly common junction design and scenario.
Glad typing and bothering to upload and post photos helped get the incident off your chest but being snippy at responses is casting you not other posters in a poor light.
Good advice, I'll stop 😀
andybrad, you're definitely wrong I'm afraid. The cycle lane is a continuous carriageway that the car crossed without giving way to DezB. There are no stop or giveway marks on the bike path. You're correct about the right but dead thing though, you have to look out for yourself as a vulnerable road user.
Yes you should complain, road layouts should be inherently safe. Really though the only way for that to be safe is for drivers to be used to giving way to cycles, and I don't envy anyone who would be trying to achieve that in this country.
But you know the heroes are right, it's a totally predictable event and if you've got 30 years of commuting experience I'm sure you'll know that. Even going down a bus lane this happens to me all the time, despite there being every chance for the vehicle giving the flashes while I'm coming up the clear lane or those turning right to avoid it.
Let's be clear though to those saying "It's undertaking and you're not allowed" though that this is the exact intention of bus and, to a lesser extent perhaps, cycle lanes, and clearly you're not going to be passing traffic unless the traffic is slow moving/stationary, when the highway code is quite clear that passing on either side is acceptable for all vehicles.
Prompted by this I have just reported an issue on my regular ride. It is down to selfish driver's not wanting queue and using a cycle lane instead. Reported here for my local council. https://www.bristol.gov.uk/streets-travel/tell-us-about-a-road-safety-concern No idea if anything will get done (I have a hunch) but maybe if we all report these things there is a chance.
“It’s undertaking and you’re not allowed”
On a bike it's not undertaking, it's filtering if you are on a bike in the traffic lane. And is allowed.
If you are in a cycle lane, you aren't undertaking or filtering, you are in a bike lane, its purpose (or atleast should be) is to separate you from the traffic.
It is only common sense that you slow down when you come to a junction, and check what's happening before preceding through at full pace.
On the bike, I basically live by 1 rule, self preservation, it supercedes everything else!
"No point being right and dead."
Somebody please convince me the eventual conclusion of this line of thought isn't commuting by car instead.
If you are in a cycle lane, you aren’t undertaking or filtering, you are in a bike lane, it’s separate. But it’s only common sense that you slow down when you come to a junction, and check what’s happening.
Agreed but experience in more bike friendly countries suggests this could largely be avoided if the roads and priorities were completely reworked and cultural changes took place...
Just occurred to me - the reason why the "You should've/I would've done this" responses bug me - it's because I'm not coming here saying "Look what happened! Why did this happen!? I dun understand!" - It's bleeding obvious I know what and why it all happened! Coming along afte the event and telling me what I already know is just dopey. I've even said what I'd do different in future...
But anyway, feel free and I won't get bugged no more.
convince me the eventual conclusion of this line of thought isn’t commuting by car instead
Never!
There's loads of guidance for cycle infrastructure. Unfortunately highways designers see the guidance as the highest/best, rather than the minimum requirement. And there is no requirement to follow any of it.
I blame Sustrans for the entirely shite state of UK cycle infrastructure. Their desire to create a "national cycle network" of blue signs at the turn of the millennium, meant miles of shoddy and poorly thought out (I hesitate to use the word "designed") infrastructure was hastily installed, and is now referenced as high quality design.
I agree that we should stop building all infrastructure for a period until some sort of national minimum standard is developed, and can be integrated into highways design manuals in such a way that makes derogation from the standard very difficult. If you cant fit a full sized cycle lane in, then maybe there isn't space for one at all?
Shoot me down if you like but....
Isn't this very similar to the dutch infrastructure we all rave about? IE. the cycle lane has priority over the side road as it should do if the cyclist is to make progress? The obvious alternative would be to have the cycle lane give way to the minor road which is rubbish.
The difference is that in places like the Netherlands the drivers are expecting the bike and know if they have an accident in this situation they'll be presumed at fault.
The differnce is twofold. One you almost never see it just painted on the road like that - there will be clear separation ( a the UK design guidelines state) and give way lines each side so effectively the cycleway is separated from the road
Two presumed liability means everyone knows bikes have priority
This is typical - main road, side road, its clear the cycleway has priority doe to the separation
https://www.google.com/maps/ @52.3622,4.8737139,3a,75y,7.12h,65.41t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sz1fOZxq7lBbtu5-lXUdAAw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dz1fOZxq7lBbtu5-lXUdAAw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D230.61264%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Plus, drivers there actually do look out for cyclists. They have to as there's so many of them.
The Keep clear is not to allow a car from the main road to turn into the side road. it is to enable a vehicle in the side road to turn right onto the main road (its too far along for the former). Anyone know why they use keep clear rather than proper yellow boxes? is white paint cheaper?
Different meaning.
Keep clear applies to the direction you read it from (other rules might prohibit you from blocking it but that's slightly different), yellow box applies to traffic from all directions.
You can block a yellow box as long as your exit is clear, e.g. you stop in the middle of it at a junction when turning right but there's oncoming traffic. You can't do that if it says keep clear.
a TV crew from one of those crap docu real life programmes
Oi, I was involved in making that show (assuming it's the BBC one). We won a BAFTA and beat whatever Atenbrough made that year! Who was the PD?
Turning right from the Give Way lines or into the side road Dez? Into the side road would be a 'what are you playing at moment'. Similarly turning onto the major road the Give Way lines are there to ensure you stop and check before moving off. You were very kind all things considered.
A quick update from me. As mentioned I above I reported a dangerous road junction near me to my local council. Its dangerous because cars use the cycle lane to make two lanes of traffic for straight on and right. I suggested they at least re-paint the existing cycle lane as its worn away to almost nothing with all the cars, better yet make it a red lane, but ideally tweak the road layout. Just had a response:
The required road markings have been added to our rolling programme of repairs and will be prioritised and then programmed as budget and resource is made available.
Regards
Highways Maintenance
Quite non committal but better than nothing. Hopefully something will happen
So many cycle lanes need those sloping blocks to stop cars using them, or at least make them aware they're crossing into the bike lane.
These
My report got this response from the highways:
"We will assess your enquiry as soon as possible. We receive around 70,000 enquiries each year..." loLZ
Agreed with that last statement, Dez. Those blocks are great. Not perfect but a million times better than magic paint. Good luck getting something done.
I have a section of those on my commute and only occasionally do I have to move out in to the dual carriageway to avoid a van or par parked in the cycle lane. 🙄
OTOH, there's a section of single lane carriageway and a cycle lane approaching traffic lights. So what happens? Two lanes of queuing traffic form, fill the bike lane with stationary pollution boxes 🙄🙄 so I ride on the pavement instead.
Agreed with that last statement, Dez. Those blocks are great. Not perfect but a million times better than magic paint. Good luck getting something done.
Funnily enough, was checking reports on those, and similar things - whenever they put them in in this country, they are removed shortly after due to safety issues... yep - apparently, a pedestrian trip hazard.
I reckon this is an example of where no infrastructure is better than poor infrastructure. The lane does nothing positive, since you'd be filtering just the same, but it encourages riders to blat on like they are perfectly safe and in the right. When as the OP discovered they aren't. This is a classic 'cyclist making progress' accident - my mate got knocked off that way, and I have nearly been too. However the cycle lane lures riders into that situation. It should be erased.
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********* note: bumped thread ************
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(will anyone notice that, or will they read the first 2 posts and jump in feet first)
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At the risk of bumping a bad tempered thread 😀
I've just had an (interestingly worded) update email from the road bods:
I am pleased to confirm that the junction has already been included within one of the County Councils Casualty Reduction Programmes for further investigation as we had noted a worsening trend of injury accidents following our regular examination of the police database of recorded injury collisions.
I will ensure your comments are considered as part of our investigations. Any measures installed are likely to be lower cost in nature and will be aimed at highlighting the various hazards present to drivers.
Kind Regards
Steve Woodward
Team Leader
Safer Roads – Casualty Reduction
Nice to be thought of as a hazard to drivers. There was me thinking I was a fellow road user. Ho hum, at least they are considering the junction, even though there strangely have been no queues of traffic at that point these past few months!
Nice, but I would respond to that effect, that cyclists are road users not hazards.
Yeah, I'm considering it. That last sentence is quite weird.
Surely the bigger hazard is to you?!
copy and paste letter maybe?
Being generous, it seems to me that the sentence is just missing a comma - highlighting the hazards present, to drivers.
Ie signage/markings which help inform drivers of possible hazards, as in the 'hazard perception' test that new drivers have to pass. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you represent a danger to them.
Yea, I agree with Martin, not even sure it needs a comma? Highlighting to drivers the hazards present?
Starts to sound a bit:
Ah yes - I see the wording is slightly ambiguous. So a big flashing signin the middle of the road "YOU ARE ABOUT TO CROSS A CYCLE LANE, IT'S BLOODY DANGEROUS TO THE CYCLISTS SO MAKE SURE YOU LOOK BEFORE CROSSING!!"
or maybe
"CAUTION! YOU MAY GET A SCRATCH ON YOUR PAINTWORK AHEAD" that should do it.
To be fair, I don't think the signs differentiate who is the hazard and who is at risk. A Triangle with a fence on it and a triangle with old people are both warning you of a hazard, one's moving at 70mph and weighs 100 tonnes, the other 2mph and has arthritis.
I think more needs to be added to the driving test about awareness of cyclists, as others have said it's more of an issue with the mentality of most drivers as it's unrealistic to change all road infrastructure to accommodate cyclists safely (as much as I would love it to happen).
Anyone who's driven in the Netherlands would know that you need a swivel head at junctions to keep track of cycles lanes (where they often have right of way over cars) but it really does change your mindset as a car driver to be far more aware of cyclists.
I think more needs to be added to the driving test about awareness of cyclists
Maybe, just maybe, one good thing to come out of this lockdown situation is all the folk who have been riding bikes around, when they get back in their cars, their awareness of cyclists should have increased. (Badly worded, but you get my drift)
Car driver at fault but accident easily avoidable. Filtering past a van without slowing right down is an obvious risk. It is riding into a blind spot. Would you ride round a blind corner at high speed?
As for here comments? No crashes in decades of bike commuting. So either I've been really lucky or I have been able to anticipate hazards and have a plan to deal with them
I am always wary when filtering. There is always a risk of getting doomed passing cars passing busses or Van's ads risks like the OP incident or peds running in front of you. Filtering is best avoided where possible by altering route, sometimes going outside, and appropriate speed when filtering.