[Closed] millimeters from doom!

But should I complain about this road layout to the highways people?

When I'm king I'll decree that we just stop building cycle infrastructure - just stop completely  for 5 years, 10 years, whatever it takes..

During that time we'd have a national debate - involve all the stakeholders in roads and the public realm - what should cycling infrastructure be? Who is it for? How should it built? Importantly - who is qualified to build it.

We don't see example of engineers free-styling their way through the design of a motorway slip road, or a railway junction or an airport runway. Why are people just riffing it with cycleways? Bad designs make all cycle infrastructure dangerous because theres no consistency  - you don't even get a consistence approach down one mile of road let alone all over the country.

I'll then decreee that the money saved over the last 5 years will be spent, in addition to the planned spend for the following 5 years only on putting right bad design and impelemtation - no new infrastruture til the existing is right.

Then I'll resign as king and someone else can have a go.

Bad designs make all cycle infrastructure dangerous because theres no consistency

... and then you get "why aren't you in the bike lane?!" yelled at you. Um, because it's shit and dangerous?

Too right, both of the above. I rarely ride that way, but in future I’ll use the (very wide) pavement, where I’d get a proper view of the road.

That’s a really shit layout and zero thought has been given to cyclists

Are there any guidelines they should be following or is it complete freestyle?

Hmm. This is one of those infinitesimally rare occasions when I'm not actually 100% behind the biker....

Have I misunderstood?

There was a cycle lane, you were making progress along it in heavy traffic. There was a keep clear painted section designed to allow drivers to turn right when traffic was chocca. Someone was turning right, across that section.traffic was chocca.

Who are you trying to lay the blame at here?

Going off the bit where he says ‘it was no-ones fault’ I’d hazard a guess that he isn’t blaming anyone. Hth.

Car was crossing a marked lane, so should have been sure it was clear before crossing.

Which is very easy for me to say sat on my arse on the sofa looking at your photos. In reality cyclists need to spot those risks and deal with them, no use being 'dead right'. Well done for being so understanding.

The reason I blamed the road layout and none of the road users, was beca... oh , you do have to spell it out for some people, don’t you.. The van (and the queueing traffic) was blocking my view, the van and the queueing traffic blocked the view of the turning car.. I think, I subconsciously may have expected something when I saw the Keep Clear, pretty sure it can’t have all been reaction. But still, it ain’t right that I have a lane “designed” to allow me to make progress and yet...
But nice that a hero has turned up. Wouldn’t be STW without it.

But nice that a hero has turned up. Wouldn’t be STW without it.

Is that me? I've been whacked in very similar circumstance and was sorry for the car driver, but the rules of the road are clear - you have to give way when crossing a lane. Agree the layout could be much better designed to make this clear to the car driver or protect you, but it was your right of way.

Edit-burko73 put it so much better than me. ⬇️👍

Thing is the car wouldn't have crossed the second lane of a dual carriageway at that point without making sure there wasn't a car coming, why should it attempt to cross the cycle lane whenthere could be a bike coming?

It prob just wasn't part of the car drivers thought process. She prob didn't think/ realise/ see that there was a bike lane (2nd carriageway) there.

Its a shame but common that people just aren't looking out for bikes and the infra is so poor that it might as well not be there.

Is that me?
No, sorry, further up the thread.

No worries 😁

The Keep clear is not to allow a car from the main road to turn into the side road. it is to enable a vehicle in the side road to turn right onto the main road (its too far along for the former). Anyone know why they use keep clear rather than proper yellow boxes? is white paint cheaper?

However even without the keep clear the risk still exists if the van driver is just courteous enough to leave space for crossing traffic.

Isn’t the fault here that the keep clear box only benefits those pulling out of the side road to join the main carraigeway? There is no keep clear box for cars turning right, as was faced by the OP. That car in the photo is sort of on the wrong side of the road, to enter the side street, and would face oncoming traffic?

I can understand that if there is a van parked up to the keep clear then, in theory, it shouldn’t be be possible to turn right off the main carraigeway into the side street as there wouldn’t be clear road, especially if someone was pulling out of the road. Unless they performed a cheeky jink across the keep clear box then swapped lanes on the side street.

I guess the car inmy incident took the same route as that Toyota. When there’s a big line of traffic sat there, why wouldn’t someone turn right? Hardly any drivers are going to think, ‘I’ll wait for the traffic to move off, in case there’s a cyclist on the cycle lane’. In reality, like.

Thing is the car wouldn’t have crossed the second lane of a dual carriageway at that point without making sure there wasn’t a car coming, why should it attempt to cross the cycle lane whenthere could be a bike coming?

Wouldn't or shouldn't? It would be unusual for vehicles to be stationary in lane 2 of a 4 land undivided c/way* with moving traffic on the left, so I'd say that a similar situation could occur (in fact I've seen it)! If you were on a such a road with a long queue in Lane 2, and driving up the inside in lane 1 (perhaps towards a filter lane) it would be prudent to be alert for crossing traffic which may not have seen you. The error is the crossing vehicles but error happen.

*2lanes each way with no barrier in the middle is more comparable than a true D/Cwy as the point of the barrier on a D/Cwy is to stop cross over.

Looks like Waterlooville?

Not a lot of fun riding along there. We lived just round the corner from there for a while and easy to get a 'moment' passing those side roads. Doesn't help that the traffic along there can be a little fast vs the 30 limit too (although not so much for you earlier).

Cowplain, so almost the ‘ville 🙂

Bloody cyclists, don't even pay vehicle exice duty

Similar road lay out.

No keep clear.

Car in the queue flashed another car to turn into junction.

I planted a road rat in their passenger window and smashed the windscreen.

Matey started going on about me paying for the damage to his car as my bike hung off his wing mirror till k pointed out he had crossed. A marked lane . The blood drained out his face.

Nothing else was mentioned.

Few years ago now. Thankfully Bupa paidd for my neck physio. Police said if it ever happened again just lay on the floor till they arrive.

Filtering on a motorbike, filtering on a bicycle - same thing applies:

If there's a gap in stationary or very slow moving traffic, it's normally for a reason. Any gap like that should ring alarm bells and as the most vulnerable road user (as a cyclist or motorcyclist) the only way to stay safe is to put your safety in your hands, as soon as you start trusting other road users, you're done. The fact that you had the right of way matters less when you're laid on the road, or worse.

Me? My 'spidey sense' is very well honed after years of commuting on motorbikes (50k plus miles) so if I was filtering either side of the stopped traffic, I would have spotted the gap, slowed and checked it before proceeding.

There is guidance certainly in Scotland for cycleways. They are actually pretty good. trouble is no one builds to them. I had a big online argument with someone about the new stuff on leith walk. It does not meet the standards. He obviously had had a part in designing it and claimed it was safe and met the standards. It is neither so most folk ignore it

If they were actually built to the standards ie 2 m wide, noton pavement, separated fronm the road by a kerb or other barrier with priority at junctions they would be good

Note the hierarchy - on pavement is the lest good option

TRANSPORT.GOV.SCOT "https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/14173/cycling_by_design_2010__rev_1__june_2011_.pdf"

It's amazing a gap was left these days. It's normally drive up to the bumper, eyes at 12 o'clock. Sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong. It was the car driver's fault but luckily you had a good attitude and didn't plough straight on, so lessons learned and no damage done.

What this clearly needs is the cycle lane to have to give way at every Junction to turning or joining traffic.

That'd fix it.

Someone was turning right, across that section.traffic was chocca.

Who are you trying to lay the blame at here?

Cross out "bike" and put "car." You're driving along and someone coming from the opposite direction turns right across your path. Who's at fault?

Anyone know why they use keep clear rather than proper yellow boxes?

Because every **** and their mother either ignores box junctions or doesn't understand them?

In any case, the rules for both are different. You're perfectly at liberty to sit in a box junction if your exit is clear but you can't get to it. Like, as a totally random example, wanting to turn right across oncoming traffic.

Nah , The' Keep Clear ' box needs lengthening 3 fold. So the trffic is clear to move in and out of the sideroad unhindered . This would also effect a better line of sight for Dez when hes riding his bike , as he would have more clear air proir to the junction.
The driver would have more time to see a cyclist earlier as the would appear sooner.

Wont happen as there is no money to pay for paint, no dim witted people in road planning actualy ride bikes, and the traffic , for the most part, ignore Keep clear zones and yellow boxes

Rubbish road layout I agree, which invites incidents like this. When I've been undertaking along that kind of cycle lane I am very steady and cautious, especially approaching a junction like that, and especially when I've seen that the "keep clear" is empty for someone to turn across. Like the OP, it enables me to stop in time.

If I haven't seen and judged all of that then I wasn't paying attention and/or riding too fast for the traffic condtions.

During that time we’d have a national debate – involve all the stakeholders in roads and the public realm – what should cycling infrastructure be?

Of the sort which has been carried out in Greater Manchester?

Of the sort which has been carried out in Greater Manchester?

Hold your horses. I'm not king yet.

Hi OP, absolutely agree - that looks like another one of those 'waste of paint' cycle lanes. I don't know anything about the mechanism or efficiency of complaining to the local council but perhaps it could add a voice to other concerns.

Also really enjoying your prediction of the 'I would have avoided that crash because I'm better at bike riding' posts coming true.

(FWIW, I would have bunny hopped the car, yo)

To answer the question, what would I have done differently, if I was in that situation I would seen the gap and just assumed that someone would have tried turning across it without checking beyond the van (or even being aware there was a cycle lane). So I would have slowed or stopped completely before crossing it. Definitely a rubbish road layout, but assuming every other road user is an idiot never hurts.

The think is if yo do not reflect on incidents like this and try to work out what you could have done better you never improve your safety. DexB has plenty of form tho on near miss moans and refusing to listen to any suggestions or to reflect in any way. For what its worth I would have been walking pace filtering and would have been watching the junction. I might well have been ignoring the cycle lane and be in the middle of the road

Dreadful layout but it sounds like you had the right approach which is never trust a gap in traffic.

Bit like never using the gate in a field as that's where the booby trap and mines will be!

In the case of two car lanes instead of a cycle lane and car lane, the car pulling across would be at fault if they hit a car coming up on the inside lane (assuming that car was driving reasonably) and in principle a cycle lane is just another lane of traffic, so you might say car is at fault BUT as a vulnerable road user I’d always exercise extra caution – in the same way I’d watch for cars pulling out of junctions – in this case I’d treat the junction as if the road markings didn’t exist, that is not assuming priority, and watch out for queuing cars leaving gaps as it usually means someone might be coming in / out of the gap.

So, probably drivers fault, but knowing that won't keep you safe from it happening again.

I'd like to think that I wouldn't have trusted that junction one jot when vision was obscured by a van. But.

It's very easy on the Internet to think at the speed of typing and go "yeah, I'd have done this that and the other instead." Maybe you would, maybe not, but regardless of how good you are at cycling / driving / pedestrianing, on the roads things can readily go sideways in an instant. Sneeze at the wrong time and you might need a spatula to recover what's left.

In the case of two car lanes instead of a cycle lane and car lane, the car pulling across would be at fault if they hit a car coming up on the inside lane (assuming that car was driving reasonably) and in principle a cycle lane is just another lane of traffic, so you might say car is at fault BUT as a vulnerable road user I’d always exercise extra caution – in the same way I’d watch for cars pulling out of junctions – in this case I’d treat the junction as if the road markings didn’t exist, that is not assuming priority, and watch out for queuing cars leaving gaps as it usually means someone might be coming in / out of the gap.

So, probably drivers fault, but knowing that won’t keep you safe from it happening again.

100% agreed with all of that apart from, it's absolutely the driver's fault. It's a shit road layout fo sho but the cold hard truth is that drivers aren't looking for / expecting people on two wheels.

Victim blaming is a very bad thing, but it's no use being right when you're dead.

The think is if yo do not reflect on incidents like this and try to work out what you could have done better you never improve your safety. DexB has plenty of form tho on near miss moans and refusing to listen to any suggestions or to reflect in any way. For what its worth I would have been walking pace filtering and would have been watching the junction. I might well have been ignoring the cycle lane and be in the middle of the road

I'll have a vowel please, Carol. And a consonant. And another vowel.

A bit of paint on the road does not help me to feel safe. Going past junctions still makes me flinch. Going past junctions where I can see my vision is obstructed and the vision of other road users who might be turning right of me is also obstructed makes me more than flinch. Is it my 'right' to carry on at constant pace regardless - maybe. Do I - hell no! I always slow down, just because I like being alive.

It would be interesting to know what we collectively would all do in that driver's situation - stopped in the opposite lane wanting to turn right with a load of drivers behind us but our view of the cycle lane obstructed by the stopped van. How many of us (in real time behind the wheel, not with the benefit of hindsight and behind a keyboard) would refuse to turn right and hold up the traffic behind you until the van had moved on and a smaller vehicle was stopped there. Hand on heart I wouldn't. I'd be going for it albeit slowly.

How would you redesign it? Making the keep clear box bigger would just move the issue a few feet. Of course the cheapest solution would be to remove the cycle lane and reset the cyclists expectation to filter with abandon.

Random additional anecdote - a very good friend had almost exactly the same incident on Southampton Road just down the hill from that in Cosham/Paulsgrove going past the QA. Only he bullseyed the windscreen. Ambulance attended complete with a TV crew from one of those crap docu real life programmes. An impressively inflated valuation report from a local shop for his absolute shed of a bike (as in an extra couple of naughts added to the value turning a skip find into a mint vintage retro classic) and some whiplash and he was a TV 'star' and had a deposit for a house. But (enters the world of victim blaming especially about a very good friend) I have never met anyone who when he cycles or drives has such poor anticipatory skills. There is a reason stuff like this keeps happening to him (on bike and in a car) and it's not bad luck.

For what its worth I would have been walking pace filtering and would have been watching the junction. I might well have been ignoring the cycle lane and be in the middle of the road

Worth absolutely zero. You are hilarious.

How would you redesign it? Of course the cheapest solution would be to remove the cycle lane and reset the cyclists expectation to filter with abandon.

alot of the time this would be safer than herding them into unsuitable positions - give the cyclists accountability.

At junctions like the above , at T junctions and at traffic lights where there is a right turn as an option. - all places i want to be on the other side of the car - but you do and cars are honking at you to get back in the cycle "lane"

you know paint a lane up the left hand side of a truck at a set of lights or a T junction - wheres the inexperianced cyclist going to think the safe space is ....

or they put in a 'cycle lane ' 5mtr either side of a T junction. Paint 2ft of the road red and paint a little clown bike picture at each end
Probably costs £3250 all in , and is worser than doing nothing. they encourage bikes to the kerb area , encourage close passes as the bike is in its 'lane' , and do not really remind cars that Dexb might be blasting up the inside screaming 'STRAVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA'
whilst listening to SOAD on his DJ cans

and DezB makes my point again

do you really think yo can learn nothing from all these near misses you keep on having?

At junctions like the above , at T junctions and at traffic lights where there is a right turn as an option. – all places i want to be on the other side of the car – but you do and cars are honking at you to get back in the cycle “lane”

Doesn't always work, I agree that's the lesser of two evils, but I was ****ted by a car being flashed out of a junction on the right. 🙄 No injuries apart from to my pride and bike. It was a few years ago, the weather was minging, it was dark and I was distracted by being miserable.

Let's be careful out there.