[Closed] Middle lane hogs and tailgaiting

Blatent populist policy bollocks, I eagerly await the Daily Mash response.

I can't wait until the police start enforcing all the traffic laws against everyone else, who is a terrible driver, unlike me.

As said before - unenforcable.

They can't do mobile phones.

The use of mobile phones while driving has dropped noticeably and significantly. Of course the police can't be everywhere and see everything, but the law has had a clear impact.

The use of mobile phones while driving has dropped noticeably and significantly.

I think it did, for a while, but these days I see plenty of people using smartphones while driving to check email/facebook, send texts, get directions etc

But that usage means they don't hold their phones up to their ears, so it is much harder to detect and enforce.

Seatbelts

Cops are nowhere to be seen on the motorways in this country. Coming from Australia I was surprised by the lack of enforcement. Police seem not to care about policing over here. Nice, as you get to sit 5 mph over the limit without fear of losing £100s, not so nice when the roads are infested with useless and inconsiderate drivers

What is too close and at what speed?

Under 2 seconds (1 banana, 2 banana) at any speed, as per the Highway Code you'll read if you ever decide to try for a driving license.

Edit: And if you spend some time looking at what other drivers do, you'll see figures of a 1/10th of this not uncommon at speed. To my untrained eye, 2 seconds at 60-70mph must be like 8 car lengths.

The police can’t catch murders, rapist, locate missing children, why on earth does anyone think they stand any chance with this latest headline grabbing announcement.

Unless of course it is going to be their main effort! Maybe if they electronically tagged people with number plates/gps locaters then crimes against real people would become easier

There are three reasons people drive in the wrong lane of the motorway.

Ignorance / Laziness / Selfishness

If this announcement informs the ignorant people and give the lazy people an incentive to to move over it will be a start

Cops are nowhere to be seen on the motorways in this country. Coming from Australia I was surprised by the lack of enforcement. Police seem not to care about policing over here. Nice, as you get to sit 5 mph over the limit without fear of losing £100s, not so nice when the roads are infested with useless and inconsiderate drivers

Which bit of Australia?????

Australians seem to exhibit the worst driving 'skills' I've ever seen. Totally inattentive, incapable of reading the road, zero lane discipline, no concept of how to drive in rain (never mind fog or frost), or around corners. Starting at some point within the first five minutes after the lights change to green also appears to be an issue, and roundabouts seem to be a complete mystery. Very blasé about drink driving, and the cops and pollies seem to think the only way to improve road safety is through punitive fines for being 2 km/h over the limit and ever decreasing speed limits, rather than actually teaching any of the halfwits how to drive.

I'm convinced if you fed half of London's drivers speed, and the other half five pints you'd still see better driving skills compared to your average day in Australia.

To my untrained eye, 2 seconds at 60-70mph must be like 8 car lengths.

It's more like 12-14 car lengths (based on a car being 5m in length) at 60-70mph. If you measure that on a row of parallel parked cars its quite a long way (60-70m)!

It's more like 12-14 car lengths (based on a car being 5m in length) at 60-70mph.

Wow. And I've seen cars driving under 1 car length at 60-70! Should be an instant ban requiring re-test IMO.

The use of mobile phones while driving has dropped noticeably and significantly. Of course the police can't be everywhere and see everything, but the law has had a clear impact.

I'm afraid to disagree with you on that point, the amount of folks driving around here whilst using their mobile phone is quite frightening, I think alot of people have it as a comforter.

I understand that the Govt. are trying to make roads safer by introducing the new laws, but with the high profile cut-backs that are taking place it just seems like lip-service and it gives the BBC something to publicise.

I use the old public information film saying "Only a fool breaks the two second rule" and use an object on the side of the road as a reference point.

*shuffles off to find pipe & slippers 😳

It's more like 12-14 car lengths (based on a car being 5m in length)

Yep, [url= http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2+seconds+at+70mph ]2 seconds at 70mph is 62.59 metres[/url]

I think the general rule of thumb is leave roughly one car length for every 5mph.

IME [i]no one[/i] does this. Ever.

Blatant populist policy bollocks, I eagerly await the Daily Mash response.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/middle-lane-voted-best-lane-2013060571028

Considering the volume & the speed at which traffic moves in this country, I dont think the standard of driving is as bad as its made out to be. You get the occasional buffoon but for the most part the motorways hussle along ok.

Quite how they will enforce this with current policing levels is beyond me. We drove back from Cornwall on Sunday & only saw one traffic plod car in 250 miles.

A great idea that'll be as well enforced as mobile phones, seatbelts, window tints etc - the law makers get their spot in the limelight for all their do-gooding, there'll be a couple of headlines about how much safer the roads will be and then everything will carry on as if it never happened.

I really do want this to work, but unless there are a heap more coppers put on the road and people see this is actively being enforced it won't make a bit of difference.

Does that bit of the M1 still exist with the chevrons on it to indicate (2 of them) the distance that should be between cars?

Yeah. Makes me laugh, the chevrons appear and everyone brakes to spread out properly, and then as soon as they run out everyone bunches back up together again.

You get the occasional buffoon but for the most part the motorways hussle along ok.

The problem is that one buffoon can impact a lot of other people. I've sat in half mile long tailbacks because there's some assclown doing 50mph in the outside lane of an otherwise fairly quiet motorway alongside two drag-racing lorries.

the law makers get their spot in the limelight for all their do-gooding, there'll be a couple of headlines about how much safer the roads will be and then everything will carry on as if it never happened.

Exactly - government gets some (much needed) praise for "common sense" policies, and then gets to divert future criticism by pointing out that they introduced the new laws and it's hardly their fault if those silly police can't be bothered to enforce them (while they slash police budgets behind the scenes).

I use the old public information film saying "Only a fool breaks the two second rule" and use an object on the side of the road as a reference point.

Me too. Road markings, tree shadows. And I'm constantly doing it.

IME no one does this. Ever.

Well, that's two of us that do.

Make that 3 please. 🙂

4 but I don't actually do it consciously as really there is no need it's not hard to judge.

five

The last time I was tailgated it was by an unmarked police car (without any lights flashing) apparently annoyed at me for having the audacity to pull out in front of him as he speeded in the outside lane (I was doing 70, he was doing considerably more). The space between him and me was plenty, he just carried on barreling along until he parked up on my boot.

After I pulled in he *then* flashed his blues in the rear window. Helpful.

Can I fine him?

Obviously when I said "No one" I was excluding members of the STW Perfect Drivers Club 😉

(I do [i]try[/i] to observe the 2-second rule too BTW. And I stick [i]nearish[/i] to the speed limit. But both these actions seem to result in a lot of aggressive tailgaters, especially on single lane roads. Which brings us neatly full circle 🙂 ).

I think a lot of people stay in the middle lane as the slow lane is full of lorries and more often than not the road surface in that lane is potholed, scarred and deformed. Also when the weather is bad there seems to be less chance of aquaplaning in the middle lane. Perhaps if "they" fixed the roads people would be more inclined to use proper lane discipline?

(Not me though I smash it down the fast lane in my German penis extension, get out of my way ye plebs!)

I seem to find that everyone who goes slower than me is an idiot.
And everyone who goes faster than me is a maniac.

from the grauniad

I think a lot of people stay in the middle lane as the slow lane is full of lorries

No one cares if cars are overtaking lorries, the problem is when the inside lane is completely devoid of any vehicles but the numpties are still trundling along in the middle lane, flushed with smug entitlement.

flushed with smug entitlement.

No, they are just not concentrating.

flushed with smug entitlement.

No, they are just [s]not concentrating.[/s] morons

FTFY Molls

[url= http://www.howmotorwayswork.co.uk/arguments.htm ]Classic Middle Laner arguments[/url]

It's basic etiquette really. By shunning the highway code you are slowing faster moving traffic, reducing the motorway's capacity and probably being dangerous to others. Use the inside lane when it is clear ahead, with these exceptions:

When overtaking slower moving vehicle(s), move back into the inside lane when it is safe to do so
To avoid being blocked in by a faster moving vehicle in an outer lane

Otherwise, use the left lane you cretinous urchins!

more often than not the road surface in that lane is potholed, scarred and deformed.

Either we're driving on different roads or that's an urban myth. I can't say as I've ever noticed any great difference in the surface quality in different lanes, certainly not consistently anyway.

flushed with smug entitlement.

They were talking about this on the radio earlier, and I caught a sound bite from a woman saying "if I'm doing 70 in the middle lane, what's the problem?" so for some people it is a self-righteousness issue rather than good old-fashioned ignorance.

4 but I don't actually do it consciously as really there is no need it's not hard to judge.

I actually find it very hard to judge, because is it entirely speed dependent, and speed and distances become harder or easier to judge depending upon the terrain and prevailing conditions. And of course the vast majority of people can't count two seconds accurately (which is why 'bananas' are used by even highly educated military pilots).

flushed with smug entitlement

When I used to commute that route (M25-Bristol), the "fast" lane would exceed the critical mass of tailgating BMWs, so that the net traffic speed in that lane was slower than the middle lane. I could keep a steady 70 passing all the cars/truck doing 60 in the "slow" lane, but also undertaking all the reps in the "fast lane". Dangerous though, since BMW rep-mobiles don't have indicators.

edit: actually maybe CL is smug / FL is entitlement

which is why 'bananas' are used by even highly educated military pilots

I was always taught (in Scouts) to use "Mississippi", as in "1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi" etc

But to be fair, if I was landing a plane I'd probably use a watch 😀

the "fast" lane would exceed the critical mass of tailgating BMWs, so that the net traffic speed in that lane was slower than the middle lane. I could keep a steady 70 passing all the cars/truck doing 60 in the "slow" lane

I've had that on the M5 / M6 coming back from London. Third lane nose-to-tail doing about 60, second lane has a Nissan Micra on the horizon. I sat in the first lane, set cruise control to (an actual) 70mph and the number of cars I passed on the left whilst being two lanes away must've reached three figures.

and the number of cars I passed on the left whilst being two lanes away must've reached three figures.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about "undertaking"

Its not a specific driving offence.

If you speed while you are doing it then you are guilty of speeding. If you cut people up then you could be variously be charged with "driving without due care" or careless or dangerous driving.

Carrying on at the speed limit in the inside lane while ignoring muppets tailgaiting each other in lane 3 is definitely not an offence

number of cars I passed on the left whilst being two lanes away must've reached three figures.

But they're in the "fast lane".. so they [i]must[/i] be going faster... 😀

It's a bit like those motorists that complain about being repeatedly overtaken by the same cyclist, even though they are [i]clearly[/i] in the "faster" vehicle. 😀

Whilst the French are perfectly civilised drivers (outside Paris) in their own country, this is largely because of the hair-trigger speed cameras. You get 5kmh leeway and then it's a ticket and points no matter if the limit is 30 or 130. I put this to a colleague who denied it was anything to do with speeding fines but sadly the fact they drive like lunatics when over the border sort of disproves that.

It's basic etiquette really. By shunning the highway code you are slowing faster moving traffic, reducing the motorway's capacity and probably being dangerous to others. Use the inside lane when it is clear ahead, with these exceptions:

How is capacity reduced? There's nothing preventing you from using the inside lane. And if the hogger reduces the speed of following traffic, then the capacity of the motorway is increased, not decreased.

In summary, middle lane hogging is only more than a very minor irritation if you're indulging in daft behaviour yourself.

I'm pleased to report the French speed cameras are very reasonable. I've managed to fire them off quite a few times now(just a little over, nothing silly) and never had a ticket 🙂

Beware, when you see a French speed camera sign, it [i]will[/i] be followed shortly by a camera, not like here....

<edit> of course capacity is reduced if traffic is flowing below optimal speed... tsssk, kids 🙂

<edit> of course capacity is reduced if traffic is flowing below optimal speed... tsssk, kids

The lower the speed, the greater the capacity. Think about it.

Take that to it's logical conclusion; maximum 'capacity' is @ stationary bumper to bumper. That's not really the point of a road is it? It's the ability to 'process' (transit) traffic....

"Cops are nowhere to be seen on the motorways in this country. Coming from Australia I was surprised by the lack of enforcement. Police seem not to care about policing over here. Nice, as you get to sit 5 mph over the limit without fear of losing £100s, not so nice when the roads are infested with useless and inconsiderate drivers."

Which bit of Australia?????

Australians seem to exhibit the worst driving 'skills' I've ever seen. Totally inattentive, incapable of reading the road, zero lane discipline, no concept of how to drive in rain (never mind fog or frost), or around corners. Starting at some point within the first five minutes after the lights change to green also appears to be an issue, and roundabouts seem to be a complete mystery. Very blasé about drink driving, and the cops and pollies seem to think the only way to improve road safety is through punitive fines for being 2 km/h over the limit and ever decreasing speed limits, rather than actually teaching any of the halfwits how to drive.

I'm convinced if you fed half of London's drivers speed, and the other half five pints you'd still see better driving skills compared to your average day in Australia."

That's because there's far too many English immigrants down under :-p
If you'd read my post, did you see my write how good Australian's were at driving? I think you'd find you're quite wrong about drink driving as well, most people I know back home would nominate a skipper before going out to avoid drink driving. It's not like you can just jump on the tube at midnight and stagger home over there. Roundabouts here seem to be alien to most people, while they sit stuck in the middle of them rather than giving way. Here, it seems to be common practice to squeeze 3 more cars through every red light. Do that back home and you'd get a nice infringement notice after the camera pings you. Not being able or willing to use the indicator seems to be the norm over here and speeding is taken for granted. You did get one thing correct, which was the police are very strict on minor infringements. Maybe the Brit cops need to go there to learn how to work? I'd prefer something in the middle of the 2 extremes personally. Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?

Take that to it's logical conclusion; maximum 'capacity' is @ stationary bumper to bumper. That's not really the point of a road is it? It's the ability to 'process' (transit) traffic....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Why do you think managed motorways reduce the speed limit when it's congested?

I'm pleased to report the French speed cameras are very reasonable. I've managed to fire them off quite a few times now(just a little over, nothing silly) and never had a ticket

Beware, when you see a French speed camera sign, it will be followed shortly by a camera, not like here....

Well they have reciprocal deals with a few countries but not the UK (yet). When I had a UK plate car I was fine but I switched to a Luxembourg plate and got 3 tickets in one trip. That said, they're not above clocking you on the autoroute then waiting for you down the road and having you pull over.

In France the camera has to be within approx 1km of the sign. However, mobile cameras do NOT need to do this; I know one that is there 50% of the time I drive down a certain road so it's barely mobile but I guess the fact they CAN move it is enough

ransos - Member

Why do you think managed motorways reduce the speed limit when it's congested?

Because it reduces the wave effect. Presumably there's a minimum speed at which the effect is offset by a reduction in throughput otherwise we'd see the matrix signs down to 5 or 10mph?

Because it reduces the wave effect.

In other words, reducing the speed limit increases the capacity of the motorway

Presumably there's a minimum speed at which the effect is offset by a reduction in throughput otherwise we'd see the matrix signs down to 5 or 10mph?

Journey times with a very low speed limit would of course be longer, but that doesn't mean the capacity of the road has been reduced.

I think a lot of people stay in the middle lane as the slow lane is full of lorries

Drove from Glasgow to Mabie on Saturday down the M74. Sat in the inside lane with the cruise control on 60mph. Don't think I overtook a single vehicle and it was a far more pleasant experience than weaving in and out of traffic.

It's a speed limit, not a speed requirement...

Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?

I've lived here for three years mate, and done quite a bit of driving in all states apart from the NT. I'm off to Ceduna tomorrow actually, so that'll be another nine hours driving on the highway before heading inland over Googs to Tarcoola.

Nowhere, not even Africa, have I seen such consistently poor and inattentive driving as I have here. No apparent ability to read the road, plan in advance or anticipate that a reaction in the form of slowing, speeding up or changing direction might be required in the immediate future. They might as well all drive BMWs for all the indicators I see. Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal. When I enquired how I was supposed to get past the line of drongos doing 70-80 km/h in the outside lane of a three-lane freeway, there was a shrug.

Funny you mention the lights, seeing as I'd never really seen much RLJing or running the amber until I moved out here. Yet, when the lights turn green, everyone just sits there looking at them, as if the change in colour is a new and fascinating feature that they've never seen before. I suppose it explains why Webber's so crap at starts in F1 though! Perhaps, if drivers here considered moving when the lights change, they'd have less cause to carry on piling through when they go amber.

Most of it is careless and inattentive, rather than outright dangerous, I'll grant you. But this carelessness is occurring whilst in charge of 2 tonnes of V6 powered metal, it's very easy for the carelessness to become dangerous, especially when most drivers here seem barely aware there's anything beyond the end of their bonnet. Mirrors seem to only be there to assist with makeup, from what I've gleaned to date.

Oh, and British cops - I know several out here, and they seem to share my opinion.

if they eradicate the middle lane drivers, who will become the idiots of the road?
who will I chastise , swear at and drive in circles round to entertain myself on Britain's boring motorways?

Journey times with a very low speed limit would of course be longer, but that doesn't mean the capacity of the road has been reduced.

There is of course the another factor- the number of people wishing to travel i.e. the number of car miles to be completed remains constant. If a journey takes twice as long (or 20 or 30% longer ) by reducing the speed limit the number of vehicles that will be travelling at any one time will also double(or go up by 20 or 30%). Therefore the capacity of the road might increase at a reduced speed but it needs to to handle the increased traffic the reduction in speed will generate.

How is capacity reduced? There's nothing preventing you from using the inside lane.

The threat of the inattentive driver suddenly pulling back into the inside lane is significant ime.

Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal

In most if not all states you are required to keep right. Just goes to show how much attention people pay to their driving in the US...

There is of course the another factor- the number of people wishing to travel i.e. the number of car miles to be completed remains constant. If a journey takes twice as long (or 20 or 30% longer ) by reducing the speed limit the number of vehicles that will be travelling at any one time will also double(or go up by 20 or 30%). Therefore the capacity of the road might increase at a reduced speed but it needs to to handle the increased traffic the reduction in speed will generate.

But that could only apply if the motorway is below capacity. Evidence shows that, paradoxically, reducing the speed limit on busy motorways reduces journey time.

If our middle lane hogger is using the motorway during a quieter period, then there shouldn't be any problem in overtaking using the third lane, so we're back to "minor irritation" territory I think.

But that could only apply if the motorway is below capacity. Evidence shows that, paradoxically, reducing the speed limit on busy motorways reduces journey time.

Indeed it does. But I think it's because it reduces the consequences of human error rather than fancy maths to do with dispersion distances. But yes, it still works.

If our middle lane hogger is using the motorway during a quieter period, then there shouldn't be any problem in overtaking using the third lane, so we're back to "minor irritation" territory I think.

I agree, in that dashboard vid from a lorry back on the first page the driver was getting wilding excited with his expletives about a drivers behaviour that had absolutely no effect on his own progress. I have a feeling the danger of middle lane hoggers comes more from the indignant reaction of others than the act itself.

I have a feeling the danger of middle lane hoggers comes more from the indignant reaction of others than the act itself.

I agree. It's much easier to focus on the relatively rare instances of this causing a genuine problem than the much more common stuff like tailgating and speeding.

Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?
I've lived here for three years mate, and done quite a bit of driving in all states apart from the NT. I'm off to Ceduna tomorrow actually, so that'll be another nine hours driving on the highway before heading inland over Googs to Tarcoola.

Nowhere, not even Africa, have I seen such consistently poor and inattentive driving as I have here. No apparent ability to read the road, plan in advance or anticipate that a reaction in the form of slowing, speeding up or changing direction might be required in the immediate future. They might as well all drive BMWs for all the indicators I see. Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal. When I enquired how I was supposed to get past the line of drongos doing 70-80 km/h in the outside lane of a three-lane freeway, there was a shrug.

Funny you mention the lights, seeing as I'd never really seen much RLJing or running the amber until I moved out here. Yet, when the lights turn green, everyone just sits there looking at them, as if the change in colour is a new and fascinating feature that they've never seen before. I suppose it explains why Webber's so crap at starts in F1 though! Perhaps, if drivers here considered moving when the lights change, they'd have less cause to carry on piling through when they go amber.

Most of it is careless and inattentive, rather than outright dangerous, I'll grant you. But this carelessness is occurring whilst in charge of 2 tonnes of V6 powered metal, it's very easy for the carelessness to become dangerous, especially when most drivers here seem barely aware there's anything beyond the end of their bonnet. Mirrors seem to only be there to assist with makeup, from what I've gleaned to date.

Oh, and British cops - I know several out here, and they seem to share my opinion.

Well, I think we're both living on different planets if you think the drivers in the UK are much better (especially in London) than in Oz. I'm not going to stick up for everyone in Oz though, there's plenty of idiot drivers there too. I drove there for 16 years (inc NT where there's unlimited limits) before moving to the UK 6 years ago. And if you think the drivers in Africa are better than those in Oz (have you been to Cairo??) I'd have to question your eyesight as well as your judgement.

It's much easier to focus on the relatively rare instances of this causing a genuine problem....

Do you ever drive on the motorway during busy periods? This behaviour is not as rare as you may think.

Carrying on at the speed limit in the inside lane while ignoring muppets tailgaiting each other in lane 3 is definitely not an offence

Genuine question here... So if you were 'undertaking' someone and they chose that moment to pull back in, who would be at fault?

You're not doing anything inherently wrong in undertaking (unless you're speeding).

The person making the manoeuvre. Why wouldn't it be?

Because they could argue that the person undertook them

...and?

surely without a 'freeway' system it would be a fair defence to say they didn't expect someone to come up on their inside?

So if I go round a bend not expecting a cyclist and mow one down, that's a fair defence?

If you're making a manoeuvre, it's your responsibility to ensure that it's safe to do so. I'm not convinced there's any excuse for not looking where you're pointing two tonnes of steel.

Whilst it is not illegal to undertake you can be prosecuted for dangerous driving doing so even if under the speed limit. It's definitely not something to do injudiciously.

Saying (deliberately) undertaking (as opposed to legally passing traffic that is moving slower) isn't illegal is a bit like saying hitting someone over the head with a masher niblick isn't illegal. Although it is true no law exists specifically prohibiting either, they are both covered by other laws.

I thought you were allowed to undertake providing you were already in that lane. If you move lane to undertake, then that's being a nob.

Edit: I did also mean if traffic was backing up in other lanes 😳

Rule 268: Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

Either we're driving on different roads or that's an urban myth. I can't say as I've ever noticed any great difference in the surface quality in different lanes, certainly not consistently anyway.

[i]Because they could argue that the person undertook them - surely without a 'freeway' system it would be a fair defence to say they didn't expect someone to come up on their inside? [/i]

1 If they didn't look and indicate its pretty much them.
2 Otherwise, see 1.

I've noticed it frequently in Wiltshire, Somerset, and on the M4.

We are driving on different roads, then.

If you move lane to undertake, then that's being a nob.

If I can move lanes to undertake (safely), the driver in front is in the wrong lane.

The news coverage of this has really pissed me off.

Without fail 'middle lane hoggers' is the first thing mentioned. Surely that's the lesser of the three evils.

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

Not towards cyclists. I have very little experience of driving in France, loads of experience of cycling. In all the time I've spent cycling there I got cut up by a driver once. The car war British.

Just to go completely OT, but I thought you might like the story about that. It overtook us when heading into a town, and got stuck in a traffic jam, so we caught them up. I stopped alongside, knocked on the window and said roughly the following:
"Sometimes I'm ashamed to be British. You should have a look at how much space all the French drivers give to cyclists when overtaking them and try to give that much yourself."

Will there also be the "It wasn't me driving the car that morning" defence?

That one would appear to get you an [s]8 month[/s] 2 month prison sentence rather than a £100 fine according to recent evidence.

HAs anyone admitted to being a crap driver yet or are all stw drivers AWESOME?