[Closed] Michael Phelps - 19 gold medals - Greatest Olympian?

wobbliscott - Member
What he's done is comparable to winning gold in the road race, TT and track events in the same Olympics.

More comparable to doing a few laps of the velodrome on a track bike, a mountain bike and a grifter, no? 😆

and all this seems to be is a few folk who swim getting upset at "nobodies" disagreeing with them about how swimming

Well i can only speak for myself but i only swim when on holidays. I run for the odd bus but i'm not sticking up for runners. And i've been know to cyle on occasion but Hoy and Wiggins aren't on my list. Also, it may be hard to tell from where you are but i'm not upset in the slightest. I simply find it hard to believe that anyone could think winning 20 odd [b]GOLD [/b]medals doesn't make you the greatest olympian. Yes there is more swimming events available, but you don't get a medal just for entering. You have to beat everyone else and there's a pretty good chance that your competition is pretty good at swimming too. Maybe if the second 'greatest' had 15 gold medals but had overcame great adversity to get them then there might be cause for debate, but it's not even a close contest.

I mentioned earlier that Redgrave had the opportunity to enter more rowing events and maybe win more golds but didn't. They were available for him if he was good enough to qualify. So why didn't he? Maybe rowing to harder than swimming? Is that how we measure 'greatest'? I find running for miles harder than bouncing on a net so a marathon runner is greater than a trampolinist? That's all subjective, whereas counting medals is a bit more scientific isn't it.

Well i can only speak for myself but i only swim when on holidays.

mmm ye ok then whatever

My breaststroke is poor*, my freestyle and backstroke are very poor and i can't do the 'fly at all. Just because they take place in the water doesn't make them the same thing.*it's my only good stroke and possibly faster than most folk on here, but not in the grand scheme of things.

I mentioned earlier that Redgrave had the opportunity to enter more rowing events and maybe win more golds but didn't. They were available for him if he was good enough to qualify.

That's all subjective, whereas counting medals is a bit more scientific isn't it.

Spitz won 7 golds in 7 WR at one olympics. You really want to claim an athlete in any other type of sport could actually do that? Basically only a swimmer could Granted a truly great swimmer, an awesome competitor a supreme athlete, a GOAT but nonetheless they MUST be a swimmer

Spitz was awesome too.

You can have a go at answering my questions Mr cut'n'paste if you like but in the mean time...

How many rowers enter multiple events?

Don't know. What's to stop someone rowing in pairs/fours/eights coxed and coxless (that's 6 but tbh i'm not into rowing there may be more or less options)

Has any ever even done it never mind try 8 events?

How many swimmers ?

Please stop trying to pretend other athletes have as many events to have a go at

You made that up. Like the bit about me being upset and into swiming. I've had a go at most sports but that's because i'm a sporty person - only into a few.

Here's something you didn't make up. Lewis was shit hot in 100m, 200m and Longjump (cheat but we'll ignore that). Johnson shit hot at 200 + 400. What's to stop a very special track athlete being able to combine all those? A freak of nature if you like. 100, 200, 400 longjump. Relays for 100 + 400 and maybe 400 hurdles too. How many potential gold would that be over 3/4 games? More than 20 i'm sure.

BTW, did you nominate a greatest?

You made that up

What's to stop a very special track athlete

No i did not nominate one as I think you cannot compare say Phelps to Redgrave or wiggo or Bolt or Owens etc as its just different and some events allow more medals so how do you compare "greatness"?Longevity? Dominance ? Number of medals?

PHelps must make anyone top 5 if not top three and would be in mine.

I was asking the question as I don't know the answer. Still don't. Not pretending anything. Is there a reason why rowers don't enter more events? (Question mark!) Your answer of "they don't" isn't an answer. Just say you don't know if you don't know and stop 'pretending' to be intelligent.

You suggest that there's no one good enough to win 100 200 400m track races. Maybe not yet but perhaps some day. Then if they can do it for one or more games they'd be a greatest candidate too.

You even admit Phelps is top 5 or even 3 (how generous of you 🙂 ) but argue that he can't be no1??? He triumphs the other potential candidates in the attributes you list but you just can't bring yourself to say it. He's the greatest until someone bests him and that's the end of it.

Just say you don't know if you don't know and stop 'pretending' to be intelligent.

You suggest that there's no one good enough to win 100 200 400m track races

you just can't bring yourself to say it. He's the greatest until someone bests him and that's the end of it.

It's not as simple as just putting your 8 best rowers into a boat and letting them get on. They need to be matched for strength / power, size (dictating length of stroke), certain positions set the rate and tempo (and in some cases tactics), others are pure power, others are the balancing act (cox doesn't have to steer as much as you'd think and some boats are coxless).

And then once a crew's selected, they work together so the crew is optimised. Porting members between boats is a big issue, not done lightly and to expect someone to fit in to multiple boats each with their distinct style isn't practical, and that's before the physical load is considered.

I don't think the schedules of athletics, coupled with the physical demands would allow anyone to compete at a world class level across more than a couple of disciplines. For example 400m heats and long jump qualifying were at the same time.

Same as rowing - men's eight was pretty much straight after sculls, so you're hardly going to see someone hop out one boat straight into another and do well.

Much easier to recover physically from swimming to be able to compete in multiple events. Plus they only use one pool so scheduling isn't going to clash.

Still sticking with my view that he is one of the greatest Olympians, but comparing across sports is pointless.

I'm close to giving get up here 😆

I honestly think you are trolling me ya ballack. The amount of gold medals is not the only thing that makes him the greatest Olympian. The number and variety of events and the span of his career do. He could possibly do another tour and add to his tally. Maybe you accept the truth of it then.

I get you don't think that swimming is hard or that all the strokes are so similar that if you can breaststroke, you can butterfly too but that's not how it is. The fact that a few others have been great enough to win multi swimming events prior to Phelps doesn't diminish how hard it is to do. Lewis did what Bolt did but it's still an amazing achievement.

How about you have a wee think about this before answering? You might even change you mind 😉

^^ a couple of reasoned posts. The scheduling and training issues sprung to my mind as potential hindrances but the physical aspects (power, size etc) didnt. Interesting...

[quote=Junkyard ]How many rowers enter multiple events? Has any ever even done it never mind try 8 events?

In case anybody is interested in facts, Rebecca Scown and Genevieve Behrent at this Olympics - silver in coxless pairs, final in 8. There may be more, but those were the only two which I heard mentioned - along with the suggestion that they may be harming their performance in their other event by competing in both.

Issues with scheduling prevent doing much more than that, though also physiological issues due to multiple rounds of longer races (about twice the length of the longest Phelps does).

As I suggested earlier though, I'm a convert to Phelps being the greatest ever across all sports - when he made it to the top of [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_Olympic_gold_medalists_in_one_event ]this list[/url] I agree that only swimmers have the opportunity he did, but then if you look at other people on those lists the only possible candidate I can see for being greater is Sir Steve, for more consecutive titles (though the format of those lists doesn't really recognise him). A few others equal in achievement, but then you do have to look at the fact he was competing in multiple events and that he had the ability to do so.

Redgrave also rowed in two events at the 1988 games. Gold in coxless pairs and bronze in coxed. But this was with the same partner, so not the same as, say, rowing in the eight and pair, as you wouldn't have the time to train in both, plus the timing of the events at the games would be hard.

I honestly think you are trolling me ya ballack.

The number and variety of events and the span of his career do

The point is only swimmers can do this variety so he has that on his side. Despite Your pathetic attempts to find another sport where they can do this you have failed.FFS even Phelps does not do sprints and distance despite you thinking runners could:roll:

Please dont try and explain my view - I cannot decide if the error was deliberate or really is your genuine understanding
[b]Just using medals is not a good way to decide the GOAT and other athletes cannot multi event[/b]
FWIW Carl lewis is the top athlete at 22nd on the list of most medals. Is his achievements really that much worse than Phelps? Is he really not amongst the GOATS?iirc he is the only person to hold his olympic long jump gold as well...it was late last night when it was on may have misheard and not checked to be clear.
What about Bolt even if he does the triple triple he wont make the top 30 so he will be crap in comparison.

For me, it's how much further away from other swimmers he is that makes him stand out.

Junkyard this was a discussion before you started e-flexing and tried to turn it into an argument. Slide on you troll.

Bringing it closer to home, the contenders for great British Olympian seem to be Hoy, Redgrave and now Wiggins. Not trying to start a debate on who's greatest brit but these three have at least 5 golds each. That's why they are the top three - based on number of golds (primarily). That's four less than the second most successful olympian and a whopping 18 less that Phelps (swimming is easy though so divide that by four). The greatest is subjective but it's pretty hard to argue against (though the less dim, mature one still do).

Oh how you defeat me with your powerful use of reason and logic 🙄

Its a different view from you that is all it is it is not trolling and you really are a pathetically childish individual Your insults aren't even clever or funny or insightful.

That's why they are the top three - based on number of golds (primarily)

The irony is much greater than your insight or laughs per post

You admitted defeat and I also get the last word? Result!!! And i didn't resort to calling you names back, even though you seem to be a bit of a dick.

That one was at least almost funny.

and you claimed I trolled and ruined the "debate" 🙄

Is somebody going to send Phelps a message to let him know he needs to come back and win 200m IM in Tokyo to be considered the best by some bloke on an internet forum? Though I'm not quite sure if that will be enough.

Swimmers can do multiple events each Olympiad ,weightlifters and judo players only one ,so how do you compare ?

Well to start with you compare those who've come back and won the same event multiple times in a row - Phelps has got 4 in a row, how many weightlifters or Judoka have managed that?

OK Al Oerter did in the discus a very specific event 4 Olympiad on the trot .Some events are more punishing on the body than others ,It is very difficult to compare across sports

He did - I mentioned him up thread. Are you suggesting that Oerter is a greater Olympian than Phelps who has achieved exactly the same feat, whilst also repeatedly defending titles in other events? Are you suggesting that discus is more punishing on the body than swimming? 😯

Well I'm glad Usain has put this thread to bed as the 'Fastest Man on Earth' for three consecutive Olympics. No one else comes close!

I'm thinking Jason Kenny is probably faster - Bolt takes almost 20s to do 200m

Usain has put this thread to bed as the 'Fastest Man on Earth'

I'm thinking Jason Kenny is probably faster

But then the earth is 94% water so we're back to swimmers again 😛

Well I'm glad Usain has put this thread to bed as the 'Fastest Man on Earth' for three consecutive Olympics. No one else comes close!

Yes they have 😉

[quote=Edric 64 ]OK Al Oerter did in the discus a very specific event 4 Olympiad on the trot .Some events are more punishing on the body than others ,It is very difficult to compare across sports

I think this is the rub and certain events eem nigh in impossible
FWIW Mo is the first to retain the 10000m ever and that really did surprise me
Does it make his achievements better than Phelps - I doubt many think it does but it highlights how trying to compare across sports is so hard to do

FWIW Mo is the first to retain the 10000m ever and that really did surprise me

Lasse Viren repeated the 5000/10000 double in 1976 following 1972.

Cheers for the clarification as it did surprise me re Mo perhaps they said or meant UK athlete or i misheard?

Either way cheers for the info

I think Mo may be the first to retain the world title - something which didn't exist in in Viren's day (or Zatopek's who also did the 10,000 Olympic double). He's certainly achieved some impressive feats, though given those other two it's tricky to suggest he's even the greatest distance runner ever.

Does it make his achievements better than Phelps

For clarification, Phelps has only been the fastest man in water on one occasion, at one distance, in 2008.