[Closed] Met Police new poster campaign.... #ACAB

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I saw it the other day and thought it was fake until I saw the one with police tape around it. Taping them off and having a bunch of officers stood around [i]definitely[/i] doesn't make them look insecure over all of this.

The Duggan one ruins the message of the others, there was a hell of a lot wrong with the handling of the post Duggan shooting, but claiming he was just an "unarmed civilian", is exactly the same level of unbelievable spin and bullsit the police were coming out with.

If the police were as racist as they are said to be I can't believe I would have black friends who have spent their whole lives in London without ever being stopped and searched - I think they largely stop and search based on judgements around clothing (hoods up even on sunny days) or demeanour (acting in ways that appears suspicious, sometimes deliberately so to provoke a response).

Black people suffer greatly as victims of violent crime in London and their own accounts of the offenders suggest that young black men are disproportionately likely to be cited as the offender by black victims of crime. Just based on demographics young black men are therefore much more likely to get stopped and searched for the simple reason they account for around 3% of the population but are cited in 54% of street crime, 59% of all robberies and 67% of all gun crimes (all 2010 figures).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html

IMO the [i]root[/i] of the problem isn't that the MET is racist...the root is that we (as a society) create a degree of segregation for black yoofs which leads to a pattern of offending which is disproportionately high....which leads to a greater degree of segregation...etc.

See "The House I Live In"

Love this kind of activity. Gets people talking / thinking rightly or wrongly

a couple of rouge hi-viz'ers

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

Do you really think police set out of the station in the morning thinking " I'll stop and search a black youth today, just to wind him up"

Yiu don't really think that do you.?
Really?

Do you really think police set out of the station in the morning thinking " I'll stop and search a black youth today, just to wind him up"

I reckon some would.

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

Why are they 28 times more likely to commit street robberies though? Surely that's the more important question?

I doubt it's because they like nicking stuff.

Some coppers will, yes.

Love this kind of activity. Gets people talking / thinking rightly or wrongly

^this

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

is that a statistic or something made up by a middle aged white man?

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

Wow. You're a serving police officer right?

The amount of logical fail in that statement is really quite overwhelming.

Have you ever considered the possibility that black youths get convicted of more street crimes because the police target them disproportionately?

You should really do some research into confirmation bias - it's powerful stuff.

Do you really think police set out of the station in the morning thinking " I'll stop and search a black youth today, just to wind him up"

Yiu don't really think that do you.?
Really?

These two chased an autistic asian guy for fun:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-30210199

Why are they 28 times more likely to commit street robberies though? Surely that's the more important question?

It is, yes.

I've met 100% more black people I could trust than police officers.

That's a true statistic.

Why are they 28 times more likely to commit street robberies though? Surely that's the more important question?

Probably worth establishing if it's actually true first though eh?

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

And did you know that a 100% of brown people are terrorists?

And all jews are in usary?

And all eskimos have blown a seal?

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

Black people account for 7.6% of the arrests but get 14.8% of the Stop & Searches, according to the ministry of justice.

Do you really think police set out of the station in the morning thinking " I'll stop and search a black youth today, just to wind him up"

I reckon some would.

Why are they 28 times more likely to commit street robberies though? Surely that's the more important question?

I doubt it's because they like nicking stuff.

I reckon some do.

Doesn't make the whole thing wright or wrong but just saying.

Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

I'm still lost for words with this, but it pretty much sums up the whole situation the posters are highlighting. Gotta be an stw quote of the year!

#everydayracism

edit: Just read above you are a police officer. What more is there to say? Someone needs to tweet your response in response to the posters!

#policeracism

look I did some hashtags!

I'd like to see suspects vs stop and search figures rather than arrests.

Probably worth establishing if it's actually true first though eh?

(I'm talking mostly about the US here, because I've not looked at the UK statistics) The number is somewhat irrelevant. The important thing is acknowledging that social conditions have led to a disproportionate rate of offending.

The question from states (particularly the US) always seems to be "How are we going to catch more of these young, black criminals?" rather than "What is it that's happening that's leading to us having more young, black criminals and how do we fix it?"

Again, watch The House I Live In. Its focus is drugs, but the statistics and analysis on black offenders (and associated arrest rates) is startling.

If anyone thinks that black rates of offending is higher in the UK/US because that's just how black people are, you might want to consider a career with BNP/the MET.

We still segregate/isolate/differentiate in 2014, just in a more politically and socially "acceptable" way.

EDIT: UK black prison population in 2011 was 13%, despite only being 3% of UK population as a whole.

In the US, black prison population is 56%(!!!), despite only being 13% of national population.

easygirl - Member
Black youths are 28 times more likeley to be stopped by police because they commit 28 times more street robberies.

Are you Mario Balotelli?

Why do people think that offending rates are the way they are?
Lack of resources for young people?
Family? Cultural? Education? Media? The want of an MTV lifestyle?

These two chased an autistic asian guy for fun:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-30210199

Why do people think that offending rates are the way they are?
Lack of resources for young people?
Family? Cultural? Education? Media? The want of an MTV lifestyle?

Take two people both going for the same job, one is black and from a notorious and rough estate in East London, the other is white and from a not so rough estate.

Would you say that in 2014 both of those people have an equal chance at that job? In many instances I'd like to think that they would, but I also think that in a good number of occasions they won't.

So what happens to that black kid? Where is his opportunity to leave the rough estate and move to a better one, so that his kids don't face the same prejudices that he did?

Social mobility in the UK is difficult, more so if you're young and black IMO.

(I'm talking mostly about the US here, because I've not looked at the UK statistics) The number is somewhat irrelevant. The important thing is acknowledging that social conditions have led to a disproportionate rate of offending.

Yup fair enough. I'll watch the doc you mentioned.

And got cleared: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-30411557
RM.

They always do though don't they.

Would you say that in 2014 both of those people have an equal chance at that job? In many instances I'd like to think that they would, but I also think that in a good number of occasions they won't.

There was recent research showing that job applicants with identical CVs were far less likely to get an interview if the applicants had 'non-white'-sounding names.

Probably because black people are more likely to be lying about their CVs easygirl?

coolio it's make up your statistic to confirm your prejudices day, here is mine, 100% of coppers lie to protect a fellow officer.

edit: Just read above you are a police officer. What more is there to say? Someone needs to tweet your response in response to the posters!
#policeracism

Probably better to establish the facts before getting excited though.

Babylon, that is all.

😉

Pretty sure easygirl has mentioned before about being a police officer. Could be wrong though.

And got cleared: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-30411557
RM.

Sounds like they were cleared because their excuse was just about good enough to plant a seed of doubt, so as to not pass the line of criminally proven. I doubt they will fair so well in a civil case or hopefully internal disciplinary proceedings.

Would you say that in 2014 both of those people have an equal chance at that job? In many instances I'd like to think that they would, but I also think that in a good number of occasions they won't.

I'd like to think that they would too. Do you think that it isn't necessarily about prejudice against skin colour but prejudice against background and the way in which someone projects themself? For example, language use and "street talk"?

I find myself constantly correcting my teenage daughter's language slips- "we done" etc...

coolio it's make up your statistic to confirm your prejudices day, here is mine, 100% of coppers lie to protect a fellow officer.

Definitely not true, as some coppers lie to convict fellow officers

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm140319/halltext/140319h0001.htm

Sounds like they were cleared because their excuse was just about good enough to plant a seed of doubt, so as to not pass the line of criminally proven. I doubt they will fair so well in a civil case or hopefully internal disciplinary proceedings.

Definitely not true

really ? you don't say 🙄

Do you think that it isn't necessarily about prejudice against skin colour but prejudice against background and the way in which someone projects themself? For example, language use and "street talk"?

So you're saying an entire race just needs to project itself better 🙂

Ask yourself [i]why[/i] those people have the background that they do and [i]why [/i]they talk the way they do...

Social mobility (or lack of it)

Seeing as we're making up stats on the fly today, here's mine. A bizzie is around, hmmm, 28 times more likely to be a bit racisty than yer average man in the street; rising to 37 times more likely if in the Met.

It's a terrifying but worryingly true reflection of the Police in our capital - it doesn't stop there though - a relation of my Wife was until recently a serving office in South East (not MET though).

She left saying "it's not like it used to be" now her FB feed is an endless stream of really hateful right wing posts from pages like "Britain First" and "Immigration Watch" and helpful notes how she can now "say what she thinks" no she's left the Police - it's hopelessly depressing.

When I was a kid my Dad used to say that most coppers sign up because they enjoy telling people what to do - they were bullies with a mandate, but the service has changed a lot since then and I believed that most Coppers genuinely want to work for the whole community - but she's really made me question that - she at least is no different the Coppers who used to call my Indian Mate a "P**i" like it was the most normal thing in the world, they're just better trained in PR now.

So you're saying an entire race just needs to project itself better

Not saying that at all and I'm not tying "street talk" to any ethnicity.

Probably better to establish the facts before getting excited though.

which facts?

My own anecdata to add: A non-religious friend born in Britain, who worked organising international activities on behalf of the British Government, with a family originally from India, was stopped and searched by Police in Brixton roughly once a week for the few years she spent there. I'm sure they did their maths beforehand though.

Take two people both going for the same job, one is black and from a notorious and rough estate in East London, the other is white and from a not so rough estate.

If I was hiring, in this scenario, and the candidates were otherwise equal in terms of qualifications etc. I'd probably be inclined towards hiring the black person - they are likely to have gone to a shitter school and therefore if they've achieved to the same level as someone who went to a nicer school in the leafy suburbs then that, to me, is more of an achievement. (For reference, I'm white, middle class, and privately educated)

.

Pretty sure easygirl has mentioned before about being a police officer

The problem is two things are at work here

1. black people commit more more street crimes so they will be stopped more often that is just policing. TBH i would imagine 90 % ish of searches are on men but we dont call the police sexist we accept that ,men commit most crimes
I bet they stop folk under say 25 disproportionately as they also commit most crime etc.

2. the police have a reputation for being a bit racist because they are/were a bit racist.
serving officer making type 2 statements dont help any nor do they help persuade us thathere decisions are type one decisons ONLY.

The duggan poster is real BS in comparison to the others [ they really hit home to be fair] and blaming the police for the riots - WTF does that say about a society that riots for a dead gangster?- is poor reasoning IMHO.

re the 28 x claim I have no idea how the poster got to 28 x more likely but I am happy to see their working I fear none will be forthcoming as it is just BS. As to why they BS liked that I guess we will never know.

@Junkyard

Got any stats to back that up?

Also does it matter? What if more murders were committed by people with ginger hair, would that make it right and proper that the Police atop and search every Ginger person they see?

The most prolific murderer in the UK wore a beard - should the police stop and search every bearded man to check for blood stains?

As for Mark Duggan, I'm told he was a notorious criminal with a long history or offending - does that mean the Police are okay in executing him because they thought he had gun, or perhaps someone said he might do - did they give him opportunity to surrender? No they stopped and shot him down in the street.

Same goes for Azelle Rodney, they drove into the car he was travelling in, shot out the tyres and shot 8 times with an assault rifle without provocation. You can watch the video on UT if you like, the Police loved it. Of course the Police decided that they'd rather not have any evidence shown in court - so they didn't allow it.

And Jean Charles de Menez, he actually managed to surrender and was in the process of being arrested before one of the coppers changed their mind, dragged the arresting officer off him and shot him in the head 3 times, then waited for 30 seconds and shot him another 4 times - just to be sure. He was killed for 'looking a bit foreign'.

S'funny,but I used to get stopped cos I was a wee scrote. I didn't realise that it was actually an exercise in stereotyping me and persecuting me based on the expectations of my behaviour by da po-po.

As an aside; P-Jay; do you have your own theme music as you tour around sticking it to the man?

@Junkyard

Got any stats to back that up?

I would ask you for evidence of your views as well but

He was killed for 'looking a bit foreign'.

He was not but he was, IMHO unlawfully killed

amusing you wrote like that then asked me for facts

@Junkyard thanks for those stats - did you have them before you made your claim or did you google them to back up or existing thoughts - again not that it matters to me - it just another justification for a bigoted view - Black people (or poor people) commit crimes, it doesn't give them justification IMO to harass people for looking like someone else.

As for Jean Charles de Menezes - you could spend hours reading though all the reports on, well the scant amount that the Police didn't supress - it all boils down to officers deciding that he looked dodgy and he walked onto a train, they acted at Judge, Jury and Executioner.

@duckman - I use "the theme from shaft" by Isaac Hayes.

The Met may be a lot of things including "useless" but they are not racist. Duggen was not innocent.

[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26621322 ]Racist, corrupt and destruction of documents[/url]

As an aside; P-Jay; do you have your own theme music as you tour around sticking it to the man?

Who doesn't! I usually have Starsky and Hutch or the Professionals for when I'm riding around town, granted I'm usually on my way home from the pub, while pulling sweet broady's around every possible corner and jumping off curbs etc.
I don't live in London though.

[i]Duggen was not innocent.[/i]

do a search, the best you'll come up with will be preceded by the word "Alleged".

after he was shot, the police described him as a drug dealer, (something his family deny; he worked at Stanstead airport), and un named Police sources (via the Telegraph) described him as a "well known gangster"

Those police, they never tell fibs to back up their cases, though, they've never done that in the past, ever.

But he did have a gun.

Maybe.

The original police statement said they saw an officer throw it into the grass at the side of the road, 3 of them then changed their minds and said they saw Duggan draw it from his wasitband. The cab driver says that Duggan opened the door, and started to leg it...

The gun didn't have Duggan's fingerprints on it (conveniently it was wrapped in a sock), and he didn't have gun powder residue on him.

He didn't fire the gun that is clear, and there are serious questions that have never been answered about the police actions in that minute that ended in his death, but he was in possession of a gun.

The police spin after the fact was deplorable, IMO it was that spin that caused the further problems. But he was not just an innocent attacked vindictively because of his colour, he appears to have been at least on the periphery of gang crime and getting in deeper.

Using him as an example in the posters, with the wording used, again IMO, lessons the impact of the other posters, which really do highlight very serious problems.

I do believe there are big problems with the attitude of many police officers. But it isn't a one sided equation, just in the past couple of days a police officer has been beaten to death in Liverpool, apparently because of his job (although I have yet to see any evidence for that reason) and only in the past year or so the 2 officers killed in Hattersley Manchester.

[i] but he was in possession of a gun.[/i]

This is public knowledge because that's what the police told everyone.

There's scant evidence that Duggan was carrying it. The Cab driver didn't see one, certainly not one tucked into the waist band of his trousers. According to the police the only witness told reporters he saw a gun. The witness denies that they ever said that. apparently he threw it 20 ft away after he'd been shot; at the trial an Army surgeon testified that that would be almost impossible to do after being shot twice in the chest

again not that it matters to me - it just another justification for a bigoted view

Black people (or poor people) commit crimes, it doesn't give them justification IMO to harass people for looking like someone else.

it all boils down to officers deciding that he looked dodgy and he walked onto a train, they acted at Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Those police, they never tell fibs to back up their cases, though, they've never done that in the past, ever.

This polarised view is unhelpful. Its like we have to pick a side and ignore facts and just cling to that view.

He was more than likely involved in crime and the police response, to put it mildly, was OTT and a killing IMHO

* black people are also more likely to be the victims of crime as well as are males. AM i still a bigot or damn those facts again...your choice eh.
IMHO duggen had the gun but the police committed an unlawful homicide in his arrest.

EDIT:

The Cab driver didn't see one

NickC - the jury concluded unanimously that Duggan had a gun in his possession in the minicab in the minutes prior to being shot

8 jury members thought he threw it in the grass as he jumped out of the taxi, before any police officers were on the pavement, one thought he threw it away as he was evading he police, one thought it more likely than not that it was still in his hand

8 of the ten jurors thought it was a lawful killing, two were not sure (open conclusion) none thought it was illegal

What was the verdict of the jurors in the Birminghams six or the Guilford four or Maquire seven then Ninfan?

Its frightening than no officer has ever been convicted of murder despite all the deaths in custody that have occurred as well

ninfan, absolutely. Took them nearly a month to decide.

Sounds like they pondered carefully over the copious amounts of evidence before making a decision then doesn't it!

Junky - I thought the police only fitted up black people?

For what its worth, I thought this was an interesting intervention in the ongoing debate in the US about similar issues:

[i]Sounds like they pondered carefully over the copious amounts of evidence before making a decision then doesn't it![/i]

That's one way of looking at it.

Blimey that U.S. cop was simmering, no doubt it was all a front in conspiracy theorists eyes.

That is male generally. That is black generally for street crime*. Whether you or I like this fact[ or what the causes are for that matter] is neither here nor there it is still a fact.

Has this actually been established as a fact? More young black males being arrested/charged for street crime doesn't necessarily prove it at all.

Police picking on a [url= http://damnbored.com/heres-why-scottish-police-has-the-greatest-sense-of-humor-19026 ]Scotsman[/url]

I thought the police only fitted up black people?

@ Grum yes its true for the Met area

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html
br />
it is not arrests or charged it is

proceeded against

It would make more sense to discuss the causes and only a racist or a loon would suggest that black people are inherently more criminal and we should discuss economic deprivation ,social isolation, gang culture possibly even absent fathers [ not one i would support] etc as the causes.

This fact does not mean the met are not institutionally racist, that easygirls comment was untrue or that stop and search is not abused in racist manner.
Even if it was done perfectly fairly, its not obviously, a disproportionate number of black people would be stopped.

d to be" now her FB feed is an endless stream of really hateful right wing posts from pages like "Britain First" and "Immigration Watch" and helpful notes how she can now "say what she thinks" no she's left the Police -[b] it's hopelessly depressing[/b].

It's quite reassuring that she felt she had to leave the Police because her bigoted views were not tolerated.

just finished watching Babylon....

anyone think the series and the posters could be linked? not directly, but given somebody the nudge to do it?

My prejudice of the police is tainted by unpleasant interactions over several decades with a (probable) minority and is reinforced by numerous media reports of misconduct

It does seem to me that the actions of the few have a much greater affect on how the public view them/you than the 1000's of other coppers doing an honest days work keeping us safe

Despite my antagonism (well founded) the ACAB hashtag is pretty offensive

Cheers!

#hashtag was in reference to they on the poster.... not my opinion. Sorry

I have a son who was in a car that was stopped and asked to drive to a vehicle inspection place late one evening after the driver blew negative on the breathalyser. While the car was being inspected the lads were abused by the assembled officers. These were 3 Middle class white lads who I have known for years from a good school. Thankfully they kept their cool and used their wits to yessir nossir the uniformed yobbos. My respect for the local force is no more.
Like an invading army they get no more help from me which is a terrible indictment.

It's a terrifying but worryingly true reflection of the Police in our capital - it doesn't stop there though - a relation of my Wife was until recently a serving office in South East (not MET though).

She left saying "it's not like it used to be" now her FB feed is an endless stream of really hateful right wing posts from pages like "Britain First" and "Immigration Watch" and helpful notes how she can now "say what she thinks" no she's left the Police - it's hopelessly depressing.

When I was a kid my Dad used to say that most coppers sign up because they enjoy telling people what to do - they were bullies with a mandate, but the service has changed a lot since then and I believed that most Coppers genuinely want to work for the whole community - but she's really made me question that - she at least is no different the Coppers who used to call my Indian Mate a "P**i" like it was the most normal thing in the world, they're just better trained in PR now.

Police force needs to be run like the Army, whereby most officers are degree educated. That would sort out a lot of the chaff.