[Closed] Meetingtrackworld - unreasonable work request?

Certainly worth raising the point with him to make sure he is aware of it.

He may reply with 'I know but I'm expecting you to come' or he may reply with 'Sorry didn't realise, I'll square it away'.

You know what to do.

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if there's some level of unreasonable employer request in there

I'm guessing your contract, assuming you have one, will have some comment about occasionally having to work beyond normal contracted hours. I know mine does.

Sounds like a one-off and an opportunity to really build some synergies. It's low hanging fruit for you so you should really attend.

That, and we don't get overtime at all, so no sympathy there.

It's a company meeting so therefore should be paid for by the company in my view. I'd not want to attend out of hours for gratis just because it'll cost the company a few quid.

Tell him you're busy flossing the cat.

Just tell him you're not happy with the meeting at that time, but if it's a one off and he sorts the coke and hookers.......

Seriously though, just say something. No point just stewing.

There's always a bit of give and take but I'd say scheduling a meeting out of hours just so they don't have to pay you is frankly taking the pee.

That, and we don't get overtime at all, so no sympathy there

^^This - no overtime for me when I'm getting up in the middle of the night to fly off somewhere.
Suck it up Princess. ;o)

sounds like a t+sspot to me.

There's a disconnect between senior managers and the rest of us here. At a certain point you get offered a company car allowance and asked to sign and overtime waiver, basically you're paid more to do more hours.

They can't see why the rest of us don't share their enthusiasm for doing unpaid overtime on unbillable crap.

That, and we don't get overtime at all, so no sympathy there

Irrelevant, if you don't get paid overtime but expected to work it anyway then you're presumably paid more to compensate for that flexibility. If you're not then why haven't you moved to one that pays overtime, or a less well paid one that doesn't expect extra hours?

If this is the biggest problem you face at work I reckon you're doing alright.

Go, smile and play the game.

Suck it up Princess. ;o)

Need a lottery win this weekend to do a proper princess flounce 🙂

Not too stressed personally as I live fairly close to work, more curious. More irritated at the takeout thing. Could at least get some decent catering done.

It will be interesting if it goes ahead, support from colleagues has been less than supportive and not very polite in some cases.

I personally would go if it was out of my contracted hours.

Normally I wouldn't be too bothered - I do on call support work. Out of hours from time to time is fairly normal. This meeting is really irritating, it's not being classed as paid work so no overtime for anyone.

You normally get paid overtime if you do support? You're not getting paid for this, it's not classed as paid work, therefore it's not work and I can't see why there's any obligation for you to attend.

[quote=allan23 ]He wants to have a team meeting and so as not to affect the billing hours to customers we don't have thanks to the last director, he wants it out of hours

So who benefits from the team meeting? Whoever that is should be paying for it - if he thinks nobody should be paying, then by extension he thinks it benefits nobody and hence there's actually no point to it.

By the time my employer started pulling stunts like that I had kids - sorry got to pick them up, bye, see you tomorrow.

Classic 'let's see who is really committed to the company' politics.

What would TJ have said?

Union!!

What's in it for him getting you all to do unpaid overtime? Also why does everyone seem so willing to give their time away for free nowadays?
I wonder how much better state the economy would be in if all the unpaid overtime was paid to employees and the treasury collected the tax on it?

In my last job, which I did for eight years, there was a annual, mandatory divisional meeting that took all day and often involved hours of travelling as the venue was normally in the South East.

It was completely unpaid and split into a morning of updates followed by an afternoon of team building. I did not mind the former as there was some useful information to be gleaned but the team building was just lame. If it had been in work time fair enough but getting us to sing the company anthem in our own time was not great. One year a third of the people that attended the morning just left at lunchtime and the divisional director threw a hilarious, hissy fit about this at the closing meeting which was a source of great amusement to all present.

After this I just manipulated customer work to make sure that I always had some urgent work to do on the Saturday of the meeting.

My view is that, if you do a professional job with a group of colleagues who are difficult to get in one place during working hours, then it is acceptable to have a couple of out of hours meetings a year on an unpaid basis as long as adequate notice is given. However the meeting content needs to be concise and relevant. Wasting people's personal time on BS crap is not on.

I think you should go with an open mind. At least it is an evening rather than weekend and you are getting fed!

invites to industry seminars and never seen again apart from the odd robot email to attempt to prove he's still doing things.

I'd be concerned this could be a potential "bad news" meeting given what you've said about client losses etc, and keeping it out of normal hours may be a well intentioned but misguided attempt to save indignity of people receiving bad news.

Do you want to risk marking your card by being "that guy" who's belligerent and doesn't play ball for a one off meeting in what sounds like difficult times?

I'd say go along.

If it was me and I wasn't on call that day, I'd be very busy at home. Unless there was a huge spread and lashings of booze of course.

He doesn't want to affect potential billing hours to clients.

That's sort of insulting. It says he'd rather shag the moral/drag people out of office hours to save exactly how much? Penny pinch approach. Where's his big ideas, is he experienced enough for the job?

It's the unpaid bit that I don't get. If it's for the good of the business, then the business should pay you for it. If you're salaried and it's an expectation then you're already paid for it I suppose, but it would be a no from me, as m on an hourly rate.

We had out of hours (weekend) meetings for one project where many people were too busy during the week to find a time slot. I went along with it (wanted to be in the project) but made sure I got my share of time off in lieu after!

Go to the meeting in case its actualy a good meeting. I would personally make sure that you absolutely have to be somewhere at, say , 8pm. Ring or Email the guy beforehand , arive early and remind him that you have no problem with staying , but you will be out the door at 1959.
That way the meeting should flow and progress at a sensible speed without procrastination.

it's not being classed as paid work so no overtime for anyone

Why would anyone work for free? Time and a half or chuff off, you're not a charity and I'm not doing this as a hobby. The whole raison d'etre of working is to earn money.

"Is it okay if I phone a client and say we'll do half a day of work free?"

"No? Right, see you in the morning"

And if that didn't work I'd lay in at the meeting.

Normally al you have to do is get the ball rolling and someone else will get stuck and you can sit back and relax.

I've just done the same thing, but on a Saturday in Milton Keynes. It was good to get as much of our team together in one room as we could as it doesn't happen that often and it was a useful and productive day.

sometimes you just have to suck it up really.

allan23 - Member

it's not being classed as paid work

What on earth is it then?

I had an old boss who was [i]mental[/i] with stuff like this, she'd arbitrarily declare things to be not paid work. So for instance- opening a safe on a 10 minute time delay, "That's not work, that's what you do in preparation for work, like your commute" The sort of total illogic that's really hard to fight with sense.

Personally, I would have a prior commitment. If asked, a personal matter.

If you want me to work, pay me. If you want loyalty, get a dog.

Do you need a reference from him for your next job?

In a job I briefly had before my [s]firing[/s]"parting ways" I deeply annoyed my boss by twice in a row having other plans (the last time, an event my wife had got us tickets for, before I'd even interviewed there) when his unpaid evening team meetings happened.

At the current place, they're happy to take the hit for all the technical staff (many of whom are out with clients billing £lots/day) to get together every 6 weeks or so, catch up with what we're all up to, present stuff to each other to stay up to date or share info. Late start and early finish as some people have to travel quite a way to get in. Once a year we do the same but across the company, and then we only have a company update for a couple of hours then go and do something fun.

In your shoes, I'd agree with the above - find a reason to be out of the door at a certain time to speed things along. If it was a regular thing I'd be getting my excuses lined up.

I left house at 6:30am testerday, got home at 9:10pm.
I do tjis. It's called work.
I don't get overtime. I get some time in lieu, when I can fit it in.
I get paid bobbins, working for a charity.

Man up.

As a one off, just do it.
My one concern is a new manager 'fiddling' a system already, just in the door.

Ring him up at htree the following morning to request a change to the minutes

Why do people seem so proud that they get mugged off by their employers?

Wondering how many of the responses fit with the commonly suggested STW Audi/Woodburner/Santa Cruz middle management demographic ... 🙂

Seems to be a thread of "I've got a shit employer, you should too"

kilo - Member

Why do people seem so proud that they get mugged off by their employers?

Even once it's apparent you've entered a race to the bottom, you often still want to win

If its a one off then its fine but not if was to become a regular thing. I also dont understand working free overtime. Youll never get that time back in your life again.

People love to chip away and set a new low standard, and install a culture of working late. It's not easy to resist initially, but once you do, you'll have done yourself a favour.

With regards to the catering bit, you are probably better off with a take away - especially if he's knows somewhere pretty good. Most food provided by a caterer for companies tends to be a buffet made up of a few dry sandwiches and bits of cold stuff that was once deep fried!

The other thing, is your company the sort of place that occasionally does team building jollies/lash ups (in your time, but paid by them)? If so then if you are likely to attend this type of event you really should go to the meeting. Bit of give and take.

I agree - it's a bit of a w*nky thing to do, and if he started making a habit of it i would probably ask "is there any reason that you are scheduling these meetings out of hours?"

However, on the basis that this is a one-off, and it sounds like this guy might be a bit of a knobber..... I would suggest that you go along: you don't want to be the guy that is unwilling to give a couple of extra hours for what this bloke seems to consider important.

Unreasonable probably not, is it ill judged then possibily. It never unreasonable to ask the question, as long as you are prepared for people to answer honestly and to disagree with you. Personally I would not have problem with it, but for others it could be very disruptive to family life. The risk I see in such situations is that such people end up being subconsciously and unfairly discriminated against in future for not attending such types of events.

I don't see why "out of normal working hours" necessarily has to mean "unpaid", esp if you're paid by the hour.

konabunny - Member
I don't see why "out of normal working hours" necessarily has to mean "unpaid", esp if you're paid by the hour.

But that's the point KB. He's not getting paid. It's in his time.

We used to have team meetings once a month, always arranged early in the morning, we work 7-7, 4 on 4 off shifts. Three people out of the five lived local, within 2 miles, the other two had a 30 mile and a 50 mile commute each way. We always held the meeting when the people with the long commute were at work. This then got changed to random days at 5pm. So the long commuters had a 1 to 1.5 hour commute each way, to attend a meeting for 2 hours. At the end of day which disrupts they whole day off.

It got sacked off when it was suggested by the 7 day workers that Saturday or Sunday was the convenient day to hold the meetings. The Monday to Friday workers were "I'm not coming in to work on the weekend, that's my time".

Unless it was vitally important that you attend OP, and you are getting paid, or time off in lieu, then I'd be busy that evening. The unpaid extra hours culture has gone too far, people are acting like mugs.

I left house at 6:30am testerday, got home at 9:10pm.
I do tjis. It's called work.
I don't get overtime. I get some time in lieu, when I can fit it in.
I get paid bobbins, working for a charity.

Man up.

Then you are silly, a one off, meet a deadline and can take the time off later, then okay, if it's a regular thing.....I go to work to be paid, it's not a hobby.

Unless it was vitally important that you attend OP, and you are getting paid, or time off in lieu, then I'd be busy that evening. The unpaid extra hours culture has gone too far, people are acting like mugs.

^^This.

Work/life balance is the most important thing.

I work for a big multinational, Devil of a company, even they call the meetings late in the afternoon and will normally offer a few beers afterwards for people to have a bit of a social get together.

But that's the point KB. He's not getting paid. It's in his time.

This is a battle we are having in our "family friendly" employer at the moment where they keep scheduling stuff at night and then offering warm white wine. I don't want your booze, I want to be at home.

I used to have an employer who'd pull stunts like this - usually because we were all too busy to attend meetings during our notional (but always exceeded) 40 hour week.

They paid me peanuts, but expected "commitment", which meant that I should be contactable at all times, even when on holiday.

I handed in my notice, did my utmost to ensure the handover was complete but they decided I was persona non-grata and let me go after two weeks and without appointing a successor. The logic being that my workload would be evenly distributed around my department.

Not surprisingly, six months later it all went toes up.

My advice - find another job where you're treated like a human being.

More irritated at the takeout thing. Could at least get some decent catering done.

I'm entirely indoctrinated after 20 years in the military, should this have a smiley after it?

konabunny - Member

But that's the point KB. He's not getting paid. It's in his time.

No, I agree entirely, that's my point. If it's important enough to call a meeting about (and there's some valid reason why it can't be scheduled in normal working hours), then it's important enough to pay the workers to attend it! If it's not that important, you probably don't need to have the meeting

Sorry KB. I read your post wrong.

(BullshitBingo) "We're pulling the duck in the same row" (/BullshitBingo)

No, I should apologise for not expressing myself clearly enough.

Still, let's have a learning moment from this suboptimal delivery

I work in consultancy and my last employer would have the odd evening meeting as impossible to get everyone otherwise. They provided beer and snacks, I was happy enough to go.

Are you getting beer?

I know we all do it (the overtime) but it's a really bad culture in the UK for this...many other countries wouldn't ask you to do it and employees would tell them to f off..

It's capatalism...you sell your sevices to the highest bidder...why would you give your sevices for free? We don't get free Mars bars in the shop so why are we (employees) expected to give our services for free....because we fear losing our jobs when the next employee puts in the overtime.....

There is a balance to be had. Of course you don't want to spend your free time working but it also makes sense that if you all attend meetings in work time, the company will not earn any money and will fold.

Somewhere in the middle of those 2 is a happy medium, I am happy to attend the odd thing out of hours but I also expect to leave a bit early on a Friday when I am going away, WFH is the kid is sick etc.

Wondering how many of the responses fit with the commonly suggested STW Audi/Woodburner/Santa Cruz middle management demographic

Honda Civic (14 years old)/Back boiler with a 70's style gas fire/Orange 5 (2008) and IT middle management.

I feel like I failed at life 😉

Cheers all, this morning has been interesting. It's not a popular move and possibly a final straw for a few. Especially given than one senior manager has expressed the opinion that people must attend but has himself found child care issues that mean he'll have to dial in from home.

[An amusing but rude term so the Moderators have deleted it] was brought up as the topical insult for that one, from the bloke who had arranged to work from home weeks ago as he has someone replacing windows and is now being informed management's lack of forward planning is not an excuse.

I had been keeping an eye on the job pages but I think this is really the nudge to do more than look. Shame as I actually like the work, immediately colleagues are decent and it's close to home.

There are bigger problems in the world and it's not like I work for Mike Ashley or some similar utter twunt.

Don't normally mind this kind of thing, worked in companies where you had a monthly breakfast meeting, turn up an hour early, free bacon butty, coffee and a team briefing.

Meeting invite has come through now with no details, no agenda, no info on food, requests for dietry needs or any other of the usual nicities you'd expect. Common opinion in the office suggests that the passive aggressive Tentative will be the popular response until someone nails their opinion up.

Never know, there could be an EMEA Sales Director vacancy going imminently 🙂

There is a balance to be had
...
I am happy to attend the odd thing out of hours but I also expect to leave a bit early on a Friday when I am going away, WFH is the kid is sick etc.

Absolutely. The door has to swing both ways or not at all.

For all my "not working for free" comments earlier, in practice I'm quite happy to work back an extra half hour if I'm embroiled in something, but conversely if I roll in half an hour late the next day because I've to take my OH to an appointment then I'm allowed that flexibility and no-one bats an eyelid. It all evens out.

I would only do unpaid overtime if there was a tight deadline that I was rushing to meet. Planned unpaid overtime is a pisstake.

It`s fairly clear-cut to me,if you are not being paid for it then why feel pressure to attend ?
Had a similar issue recently when Operations director suggested that as I now run the Branch alone its only right that I become the call-out guy for the Alarm etc but of course they couldnt pay me anything extra apart from overtime if I do get called-out.My response was that maybe they should advertise this new nightshift post as a seperate position with complete lack of monetary reward and to let me know how many people apply for it.

batfink - Member
I would suggest that you go along: you don't want to be the guy that is unwilling to give a couple of extra hours for what this bloke seems to consider important.

This is the problem. I used to work at a place where we'd regularly (ended up being 3 or 4 times a week) be kept back to discus trivial and largely inconsequential problems after our normal working hours. Only 20-40 mins, but a PITA anyway, and it could easily have been done in working hours.

I just started making sure I had a real reason I had to leave at 6:00 ready every single time. After I'd done it a few times, everybody else did it too. Nobody wanted to be the first to be seen to shirk off. Luckily they were massively underpaying me as they'd taken me on at a ludicrously low rate in the height of the recession, then given me no pay rises for 4 years so I DNGAF.

Funny thing is the meetings never moved to working hours, they just stopped.

Pop round his yard at 3 am p1ssed up with a kebab and offer him food and a chance to build some **** synergys? Problem with people like that is it all starts off as a novelty but ends up as the norm that everyone gets used to and before you know it the contracted hours have suddenly increased by 5 hours a week unpaid.

Fk. That. C0ckw0mble.

but it also makes sense that if you all attend meetings in work time, the company will not earn any money and will fold.

It makes no sense at all. Meetings are work, therefore they should occur in work time. If the company cannot afford to run them, then it is not a viable company.

"Sounds like a one-off and an opportunity to really build some synergies. It's low hanging fruit for you so you should really attend."

If anyone ever says this to you a) hoof them in the slats b) own them with bombers c) tell them $^%^ )(*& !"£$%^ !"£$% you complete "£$%^&*()

My wife on the other hand, who is excellent at corporate stuff, says suck it up and learn whose arse to kiss. "Take one for the team"

If you are an EMEA sales director and are objecting to one OOH meeting then you are working in cloud cuckoo land.

Maybe its all a ruse, and he's something else in mind. Something he wasn't allowed to talk about...

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Maybe its all a ruse, and he's something else in mind. Something he wasn't allowed to talk about

It's going to be an old fashioned rave where you get to take your shirt off and smoke tabs on the dance floor?

It's going to be an old fashioned rave where you get to take your shirt off and smoke tabs on the dance floor?

Dear gods I hope not, have you seen the average IT office worker?

I have wondered about the ideas in the other thread on foods for noxious emissions. If we have to go, make it unpleasant 🙂

getting us to sing the company anthem in our own time was not great

WHAT THE HELL?! Do companies actually have these?!

makes sense that if you all attend meetings in work time, the company will not earn any money and will fold.

Company anthem? Gotta be a 'Mercian company. Amiright?

we had a company (Panasonic) song. thankfully we didn't ever have to actually sing it (here - not so sure about the guys seconded to Osaka !!)

I may earn a distinctly average salary, but at least its a salaried job where the culture is if you're asked to work, you are paid for it, as overtime. The odd hour at the end of the day is recorded as flex if unplanned.

Most of the team would start early for a team meeting if breakfast is on offer, but an out of hours unpaid meeting? You'd be heckled out of the room and it would be talked about as 'remember that time' for years to come!

The work all hours culture is fine if thats what you want to do, but when it becomes 'the culture' within an workplace, it is damaging to those that want to have any sort of life during the working week but stay at work for fear of being seen as slacking off or not 'furthering their career'. There is no shame in leaving work at the correct time!

Especially given than one senior manager has expressed the opinion that people must attend but has himself found child care issues that mean he'll have to dial in from home.

Holy leadership batman!

Surely now the rest of you can dial in from home too while actually doing something useful.

Not even an offer of time off in lieu?
If not compensated in money or time, why go?
I know my current employer wouldn't try it without the offer of one or the other (but still wouldn't expect a great turn out). Work meetings are in work time and social gatherings are optional.

A previous employer was aware of how mercenary those of us working for him were. Would need at least 6 hours pay to get out of bed for something admin based. Weren't adverse to anti-social hours, he paid for all the time we weren't at home, even whilst we slept. Used to cause the clocking in machine to melt down when you clocked out 3 days after you clocked in. Work was seasonal and paid hourly, only the other foreman was full time and salaried. He would take 3 months off to balance his hours.

Finally, for those working over their contacted hours, you are denying work to others, if you are doing 60 hour weeks because that is what it takes to do the job, they need to take on someone extra. More people employed, more people getting into the industries, more people paying into the system. Step too far maybe? Too idealistic?