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The thing that always sits funny in my head is that you never see a politician not wearing one but they are the ****ers sending people to die. Them and the queen at the cenotaph, without them we wouldnt be having wars. Wearing a poppy is not working for them, they have their 2 min silence then go off to send more to die.
anagallis_arvensis - Member
Them and the queen at the cenotaph, without them we wouldnt be having wars.
What if wars come to you?
Would you be willing to change your identity to one that is dictated to you?
Thats a different story and I suppose as those that lived through WW2 pass away I just worry that thecevents of the last 20 yrs mean kessons havent been learnt.
chewkw - Member
What if wars come to you?...
Got any examples involving the UK? (Not counting those where we were stirring the pot first)
anyone know what NCB means?
Jeremy Corbyn went up to Horseguards to meet/talk with WW2 veterans while the other politicians went for VIP lunch
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National Coal Board
anyone know what NCB means?
Just someone being a prize t1t. Again.
cheers, so it was just someone using Remembrance Sunday to score a cheap political point
classy
but relevant to the OP as it sums up how much its become an idealogical football that (mostly) the rightwing nutters use as a weapon to attack those they dislike
cheers, so it was just someone using Remembrance Sunday to score a cheap political point
Ah, the ignorance of the young!
If you don't understand the relevance of donkey jackets at remembrance parades to left wing labour leaders then you want to get reading your political history Kimbers. (Indeed, if you didn't recognise a coal board Donkey jacket at a hundred paces, you might want to do the same)
I'm now educated ninfan
Funnily enough no labour leader ever wore one,? but some right wingers tried to use that lie as a political weapon to attack Michael foot with, well I never
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/7361078/Michael-Foot-and-the-donkey-jacket-that-wasnt.html
Every day is a school day
Erm, yes, that would be my point (hence the highly convincing mocked up photo worthy of NASA/CIA black ops)
but relevant to the OP as it sums up how much its become an idealogical football that (mostly) the rightwing nutters use as a weapon to attack those they dislike
In the same way that we are all free to mark today as we see fit, we are also free to read this thread - very clear where the vitriol (mostly) comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
The Poppy is a symbol of rememberence for those who have given their lives in service for their country in time of war and comflict. Poppy's grow on broken ground and where widely seen on the battlefields of WW1 and the colour is a poignant reminder to the blood that was split. They have thus become the symbol of rememberence. Not for a single second do they represent to me anything about the folly of war OP. It is entirely appropriate for Poppy's to appear on military uniform and equipment.
I personally wear one every year and always donate to collectors, I also donate to other military related charities. I always observe the silence at 11 on the 11th. Many people died for our right to live in freedom, if some wish not to recognise that sacrifice that's their choice. A choice provided to them by those that died.
epicyclo - Member
chewkw - Member
What if wars come to you?...
Got any examples involving the UK? (Not counting those where we were stirring the pot first)
Second round with Argentina or with Spain over the Rock?
Ya, you are asking the crystal ball question ...
[quote=ninfan opined]Erm, yes, that would be my point (hence the highly convincing mocked up photo worthy of NASA/CIA black ops)
Your point was he did not wear one so you mocked up someone else wearing one telling us it was left wing history...christ you dont have scribble some shit on here.
very clear where (most of) the vitriol comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
TBH i have not seen much just you getting upset about it whilst claiming others are "frothing". You are still doing it but no one is frothing its a pretty temperate debate for STW I assume due to the subject with the odd bit of RW jingoistic tub thumbing about dying for our freedom eg Jamby below your post and some LW criticism of what the event has come to mean and the pressure to wear one and how it has changed from remembering the fallen of WW1 to glorifying /supporting our forces
The remembrance poppy is especially prominent in the UK. In the weeks leading up to Remembrance Sunday, they are distributed by The Royal British Legion in return for donations to their "Poppy Appeal", which supports all current and former British military personnel. During this time, all public figures and people appearing on television are expected to wear them, and those who do not have been criticized. Some have berated this as "poppy fascism" and argued that the Appeal is being used to justify and glorify current wars.
very clear where the vitriol (mostly) comes from. Sad and unnecessary...
Agreed:
If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino
Not for a single second do they represent to me anything about the folly of war OP.
I bet they don't.
Oh * off you patronising *.
I stand by that comment. He was being patronising and pompous in the extreme (as usual) and dismissing people's perfectly valid opinions as 'froth'.
And I'd like to hear his response to the 'frothing' of the 91-year-old war veteran that he's been conveniently ignoring.
😀
Ignoring you grum, not the question. There are rules (that are supposed) to be adhered to....
except he is not and he was.
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
I bet THM arrives to quote and add emojis to your reply-EDIT to be clear I wrote that before seeing his reply but so predicatble
I'm still waiting.
It's hilarious isn't it THM, that a 91-year-old war veteran feels this way:
However, I am afraid it will be the last time that I will bear witness to those soldiers, airmen and sailors who are no more, at my local cenotaph. From now on, I will lament their passing in private because my despair is for those who live in this present world. I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy.
If only someone like you would tell him to 'buy a bloody cappuccino if you want froth'.
You really are the most pompous person I have ever encountered on the internet. Well done.
There are rules that are supposed to be adhered to..
Is that you forthing then 😆
Bless have a coffee
QED
Anyway enough, it's a day of respect and remembrance not this....
Junkyard - lazarus
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
You are wrong! Said Peter Griffin from the Family Guy. 😆
Hey JY ... I am beginning to like coz you must be TJ's twin.
grum - Member
It's hilarious isn't it THM, that a 91-year-old war veteran feels this way:
I would tell the old chap that's part of the condition for being human. You have a great global cull once in a while. It is very sad when it happens but nothing much you can do but either join in to fight or die being hunted down. No biggie. We all must die one day but it is the way we die that can explain how we live.
[quote=teamhurtmore opined]QED
Anyway enough, it's a day of respect and remembrance not this....
Frothing with added flounce QED
Are some folk genuinely trying to assert that there is no pressure to conform to the poppy-wearing rule?
Some people really are.
There is pressure to wear a poppy, and not doing so can be seen as a political statement which needs to be justified. This is why every politician wears one from about mid October, and James McClean made the national news.
WHy is this issue such a divisive debate between RW and left wing on here?
I'm not sure it's totally a RW/LW thing. My political and economic views are very much right of centre, but I'm on the other perceived side to this.
Eg, I think Corbyn would be a disaster for economic progress, but he has been nothing but classy and honest when meeting veterans and actually giving a straight answer on things.
[i] My political and economic views are very much right of centre[/i]
Well done Hugo. First step to recovery is to publicly admit your flaws... 😀
So would a good summary be:
Pro Poppy appeal-ers* say it's a RBL/military affair so sorry OP, they can slap a poppy on a tornado if they want.
Pro remembrance-ers* think it's probably not in the best taste and remembrance is about more than just military losses.
Everyone agrees that poppy fascism is wrong even if some doubt it's existence and anyone using either poppy appeal or remembrance for cheap political point scoring should **** right off.
Does that cover it? (barring some amusing side arguments)
*not necessarily mutually exclusive
I'm struggling to understand why this is suddenly a right-left tiff. The anti-monarchy take is understandable given the background to the first world war, anti-religious too. But right left?
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See, Ninifan-eleven?
Why isn't the same level of rememberance applied to all lives lost during colonialism?
Or more recently, lives lost as a result of illegal wars whose main beneficiaries are corporate concerns in the arms, private military and oil and gas sectors (and the poppy trade in Afghanistan)
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
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jivehoneyjive - Member
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
An excellent question.
jivehoneyjive - Member
Since the people who make up the armed forces act on behalf of 'Queen and Country', why are charities necessary to support them after they have served their purpose?
" ... Country"
Or you can always ask why does the British govt give out aid money to other countries?
That photo above really sums up the Labour Party's disrespectful attitude to Remembrance Sunday - Jim Callaghan's badly made droopy poppy wreath is frankly a disgrace, and clearly an insult to our War Veterans.
In contrast Maggie's wreath, gawd bless her, is a stout well-made perfectly spherical example which does Our Heroes proud.
And compared to the two dodgy crumpled ones on the left the poppy on Maggie's lapel is magnificent too - as you would expect.
So much nonsense being spouted on Facebook and the like this year. It's distasteful and depressing.
Some people seem to believe that the poppy is some sort of war celebration. It's actually the opposite; the clue's in the name, "Remembrance Day," the whole point is to remember what happened and hopefully continue to learn from our mistakes.
The sale of the poppy is a charity intended to provide help and support for those lucky enough to survive the war, and as JHJ succinctly puts, have broadly been hung out to dry since by a populace and government who increasingly doesn't care.
The white poppy seems at first glance to be a positive alternative, but it's pretty... I was going to say "insidious" but that's maybe a little harsh; let's go with "misleading." They're riding on the coat-tails of a long'established charity who I can't imagine make particularly large sums of money in the first place. The bulk of the money made from white poppies goes straight back into making more poppies and the leftovers go towards funding education about their manifesto. The Peace Pledge Union's goals are laudable, I just don't understand why they can't choose one of the other 364 days of the year to have their own Day. I'd probably applaud anyone wearing one the rest of the year, but on Remembrance day it's either massively disrespectful or simply ignorant IMHO. [url= http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white_faq.html ]Further reading[/url].
Oh, and,
I don't wear a poppy, generally. I'll throw some loose change into a collection tin perhaps, but whilst it's no doubt a worthy charity it's not high on my list of charities to support (after all, I can't possibly support all of them). I personally don't like the idea of enforced grieving, largely because it's often less about actually remembering and more about making people feel better that they've done their bit for another year. I don't feel the need to wear a "I paid a pound to charity" badge to prove that to everyone else.
They're riding on the coat-tails of a long'established charity who I can't imagine make particularly large sums of money in the first place.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
on Remembrance day it's either massively disrespectful or simply ignorant IMHO
Its really not and that is pretty harsh. Let folk remeber how they want lest you are part of the "poppy fascism" that permeates this date/time of the year.
As for another day???? why not remember on remembrance day , with a poppy of your choice. The key is to remember
In 1926, a few years after the introduction of the red poppy in the UK, the idea of pacifists making their own poppies was put forward by a member of the No More War Movement (and that the black centre of the British Legion's red poppies should be imprinted with "No More War"). Their intention was to remember casualties of all wars, with the added meaning of a hope for the end of all wars; the red poppy, they felt, signified only the British military dead. However they did not pursue the idea. The first white poppies were sold by the Co-operative Women's Guild in 1933. The Peace Pledge Union (PPU) took part in their distribution from 1934, and white poppy wreaths were laid from 1937 as a pledge to peace that war must not happen again.
The key is to remember
We still get a bank holiday in France.
Yup, Junkyard, a bit over the top there, Cougar. Red, white, none - your choice.
Edit: Ernie, I chose that photo as a symbol of cross-party unity but you've managed to distort the message as an allegory of what's happening on this thread, very good. 🙂
I pay my £1 every year, in remembrance to my Grandad. Sjt James Grainger, Durham Light Infantry, killed by shrapnel at the battle of the Somme 19th December 1915, buried at Hooge Crater near Ypres.
If it wasn't for WW1 I'd maybe have actually met him.
He looks quite sad, I wonder if he knew, of something bad, to come.
[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15582263147_c528f7d21e.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5603/15582263147_c528f7d21e.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/pJXaXr ]img021[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr
My family will be at Durham Cathedral on 19th December to remember him on the 100th anniversary of his death. I'll keep on wearing a red poppy. (ok, wristband)
So much nonsense being spouted on Facebook and the like this year. It's distasteful and depressing.
LinkedIn truly is shameless. People using remembrance themed sales/PR pictures in order to promote their own company leaves a foul taste.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
Ok, I didn't realise it was that much. I might see if I can track down where it all goes.
Its really not and that is pretty harsh. Let folk remeber how they want lest you are part of the "poppy fascism" that permeates this date/time of the year.
I'm not stopping them. Rather, I'd prefer that they made an informed decision; from a lot of posts on FB it'd appear that many people don't understand what they're supporting. It's worth reading the link on their own site.
This is what it's about.
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http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii487/DH-Moose/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpe g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
It's what it should always be about. Reflecting on the total and absolute human devastation caused by war. But it's not, we're at a point in history where the west looks on as more people suffer at the hands of a brutal, warped version of an ideology. But because of our lack of attention to the lessons of history, our interference, it has caused a situation of our making and we watch on. Helpless and pointless.
Ok, I didn't realise it was that much. I might see if I can track down where it all goes.
There annual report is available online.
About 30-40 million I think most of us would call this large
If your talking about the legion you're a way off the mark there!?
(and that the black centre of the British Legion's red poppies should be imprinted with "No More War").
Why don't the Royal British Legion adopt that idea?
Surely 'No More War' should be universally popular?
It used to say Haig Fund when I was young. A rather nasty irony there...
And £40 mill is pretty spot on for 2012, [b]Piemonster[/b] as their quoted figure for the poppy appeal..