[Closed] Maybe I’m just being a bit sensitive but a poppy on a weapon? Isn’t that a bit..

try wearing a white poppy then and see what happens

given the people who fly, maintain or operate around that plane are the ones who have likely lost friends, colleagues, possibly even relatives to war do you not think they should be the ones deciding if it is offensive?

Can't think of any group more entitled to remember than the military.

Well, I'll wear mine, if that's ok.
You know, out of respect to my mates that got beaten by the clock.
Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

[IMG] [/IMG]

[url= http://www.bristol247.com/channel/opinion/your-say/politics/why-i-put-white-poppies-in-the-kitchen ]This article about white poppies[/url] made me think a bit about the different meanings behind red and white poppies.

I agree with the OP.

No poppy for me but I'll be at the local memorial at 11.

Well, I'll wear mine, if that's ok.
You know, out of respect to my mates that got beaten by the clock.
Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

Don't think you've really got a problem if you want to wear a poppy. The problem is for people who don't. It has become virtually impossible for anyone to appear in the media without wearing one. Seems like the BBC actively prevents people from appearing if they don't conform.

...I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew

I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2 😯

Quite shocked by it to be honest.

[quote=nealglover ]
I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2
Quite shocked by it to be honest.

+1. Heartless.

I don't think there's a problem with either colour.

What there is a problem with is taking offence at either..

Both in their true form & meaning are nothing other than a token showing your respect to those who've been killed in conflict.

Attaching any other meaning to either colour is really rather unnecessary & quite missing the point of wearing one in the first place. Unless you are trying to make some other point?...

Edit to clarify: is it not rather pointless to attach political meaning to either colour where none was originally intended a bit of a waste of time?

mattsccm - Member
Can't think of any group more entitled to remember than the military

One of the reasons why we have any sort of remembrance is that just about every family in the UK was affected by WW1 and 2. You're missing the point if you think anyone is more entitled than anyone else.

Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some.
Actually, I'm not sorry.
At all.

I would never object to your act of remembrance but it is important to remember that symbols only have the meanings people ascribe to them. I can't remember fallen troops because I've never known any. I can't even really remember those who served because I've known so few of them - my grandparents were in protected professions during the war and there are only a tiny handful of military folk amongst my friends and family. Remembrance to me can only be an intellectual, hypothetical endeavour and perhaps this leads me to overthink it.

This doesn't mean that that I have no appreciation for the sufferings of war and nor does it mean that I have no gratitude for the sacrifices others have made. In my case however that appreciation and that gratitude manifests as an aversion to the machinery of war in public ceremony, a fear of collective pageantry and a heartfelt desire to avoid such deaths in the future. All of these are rooted very deeply in my moral perspective and I don't see that the act of public remembrance helps me understand them further nor does it give me succor to voice them.

I also find that I can't meaningfully remember the dead of the commonwealth without remembering those of other forces; including those who were fighting for causes which the commonwealth was directly opposed to. Perhaps mistakenly in my mind the poppy, the red one at least, makes a significant distinction which I don't recognise.

I would never object to you wearing the poppy and hope that I understand your reasons for doing so. I want your remembrance to give you all that it can and respect your means of doing it. I do however object to being told that I am disrespectful for not wearing it, I do object to the notion of shaming people in the public eye for not wearing it and I do object most wholeheartedly to the misappropriation of it by the forces of jingoism.

Basically, I respect you for wearing the poppy because of what it means to you however I won't be wearing it because of what it means to me.

On a side note, every year I wrestle with whether I mean this or whether it's a lame excuse for siding with apathy. I may yet decide that I've deluded myself for years but it's not for want of thought.

/Sorry, that got a bit long and rambling.

Well said.

We all have our own ways, we should all respect that.

Don't wear a poppy because I don't believe in glorifying the military.
Its meaning has drifted to include all of our 'brave boys' [b]and I don't think it's particularly tragic when a professional soldier is killed while invading another country for no particular reason.[/b]

People can wear or not wear what they want, but remember that England has not got clean hands before/during and after both wars.

Do what makes you happy and cause no harm to others 🙂

Its probably fair to say that there is an age gap here, a lot of you would appear to be from the generation before mine. In my experience of war from 2001 onwards, how many can we really claim were just? Even Kosovo before that was just an exercise in bombing the crap out of somewhere, at least in that case there was a resolution unlike our later conflicts.

I have to say that neither of the world wars mean much to me, not really. I appreciate the effort and sacrifices made in an academic way but there is no connection, nothing that rings true. My first memory of war was Iraq the first time around and I only remember being scared shitless that my dad might get sent out. There was then the fallout with Gulf War Syndrome which was just another screw you to the squaddies that got flung by the wayside. Given the way our servicemen have and do get treated I wonder at anyone who sees it as a life and I think that was what was meant in that case (end of the day, nobody made them join).

The days of conscripts fighting a just war are long gone, its not the same any more. Likewise I get ****ed off with the argument that this was all started by people fighting for our freedom. They weren't, it was just another live action game of Risk being fought between various cousins across Europe. WW1 is not something to be celebrated, it was a tragedy of the highest order that just showed the contempt the ruling classes had for those under their supposed protection.

Not sure where I'm going with this now...

The village where my son lives has 29 names on the WW1 memorial. It doesn't mention if others came back damaged, mentally or physically. That's one reason.

The uncle who I never knew, who died in Korea, is the other reason.

CountZero - Member

Or when they're killed defending another country against invaders, on behalf of the inhabitants of that country? Which is what our military was doing through two world wars

The poppy and Remembrance aren't just about the world wars, though. You don't have to be some fanatic that thinks all soldiers are evil, to have a bit of unease about the all-or-nothing approach some of this stuff takes. You can't choose a special poppy that says "I give thanks to those who gave their lives in the world wars but I'm not that keen on invading iraq"

Me, I wear one, I can hold separate in my mind the wars and the people. Regardless of how just or unjust a war, it's going to be the same poor buggers getting shot. But I see where the disquiet comes from. Remembrance and jingoism can run pretty close together sometimes.

I don't wear a poppy.

Nobody has ever said anything about it to me.

One of those things that's mainly an issue on the internet?

This might be a useful thinking point. UK military deaths since 1945.

Korea: 765
Northern Ireland: 763 (includes military deaths on UK mainland and Germany attributed to Irish terrorism) (171 died in 1972)
Malaya: 340
The Falklands: 255
Palestine: 233
Iraq 2003-2009: 179
Afghanistan: 404 (March 2012)
Cyprus: 105
Aden: 68
Egypt: 54
Balkans: 48
The Gulf 1990: 47
Yangtse River: 46
Oman & Dhofar: 24
Suez: 22
Borneo: 126
Kenya: 12
Sierra Leone: 1

According to http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0021.html

As a comparison the British army had just over 19000 men killed on the first day of the Somme.

I refuse as I really object to the #PoppyFascism thing which comes hand in hand with the whole thing. Plus I think it's the ultimate in hypocrisy, personally I don't give a shit about dead people I never knew and I suspect neither do most poppy wearers (although I'm sure they'd all protest that they really do care, so much so they spent £1 on a piece of tat).

I've not worn a poppy since primary school. And never felt pressured to do so. Where the **** do you live to feel the force of #poppyfacism?

Strangely, I do actually, genuinely care about those that have died in THE WAR. On account of talking to their surviving friends and being able to at least empathise just a little bit.

Aside from the GFs grandad. Who seems to have spent the entirety of WW2 on a beach in India in a supply station.

piemonster - Member

Aside from the GFs grandad. Who seems to have spent the entirety of WW2 on a beach in India in a supply station.

My grandads, getting drunk and telling war stories...

"Ah, it was hell on the arctic convoys, first time I got sunk I was sure I was dead, but it's worse after the first because you know what it'll be like if it happens again..."
"I visited the taj mahal, got a killer tan, and shagged loads of ceylonian birds! Wars are great!"

If I had internet powerz, I'd just close this thread right after Northwind's post.

Can I also make a request I have no right to (and I'm off to watch a filum now) but can we try to stay a bit classy on this?

FF has posted a pretty crappy thing, which I'm SURE he'll be along to explain that's not what he [i]actually [/i] meant, so let's give him that opportunity.

By doing so we'll maintain that freedom of virtue that so many have fought to allow us the freedom to have (and not look like bellends in the morning 🙂 )

I have no objection to poppy wearing. And I take a moment to reflect. But the more politicised poppy wearing becomes the more inclined I become to not wear one. I do things because I believe in them, not to conform. And I have respect for people who give without needing to demonstrate the fact.

supposed to be about the folly and disaster of War, isn’t it?

nope its about remembering all soldiers everywhere in all the wars

free county, allow those that want to remember in thier own way the time to do so

they gave so you dont have to

My grandads, getting drunk and telling war stories...

In all honesty, it's what he did. Or at least that's what his brandy and cheap whisky addled brain remembers.

After a couple of brandys, obviously.

Can I also make a request I have no right to (and I'm off to watch a filum now) but can we try to stay a bit classy on this?

No we cannot. I want Hitler Cats.

And I want them now!

Look, we're all aware of your Hitler cat look-a-like agency, but just stop breeding them and get a normal job like the rest of us!

I've just realised the GFs grandad also has fond memories of the merchant navy

Ummmm....
[img] [/img]

is it not rather pointless to attach political meaning to either colour where none was originally intended a bit of a waste of time?

Where the **** do you live to feel the force of #poppyfacism?

*no I didn't know the name of it before wiki told me 🙂

hang on, back up a second, on page 1

I recently went to NWA at Lichfield

[img] [/img]

played

[img] [/img]

they kept that gig quiet?!

Back vaguely on topic, recently read Paxman's Great Britain's Great War, having studied WW1 many many years ago at GCSE level I'd forgotten just quite how incomprehensible the casualty figures were.

And yes, within the TV media there does seem to be a poppy arms race; no one dare be seen on camera without one, and they get earlier and earlier and bigger and bigger.

nope its about remembering all soldiers everywhere in all the wars

It's really not though is it, it's almost exclusively about remembering British soldiers or at least those who fought on our side, specifically in WWI and WWII.

Despite the apparent outrage here:

I'm not one to take offence on behalf of other people, but that's a pretty horrible thing to say about soldiers that died in ww1/ww2

Quite shocked by it to be honest.

Does anyone here give a shit about, say, all the people who died in the Taiping rebellion in China (estimates between 20-100 million?) Or the Russian Civil War (estimated 5-9 million deaths). It's just that strangely I've never heard anything like that mentioned before.

My respect for squirrelking has reached new heights, this is a very insightful reply:

In my experience of war from 2001 onwards, how many can we really claim were just? Even Kosovo before that was just an exercise in bombing the crap out of somewhere, at least in that case there was a resolution unlike our later conflicts.

I have to say that neither of the world wars mean much to me, not really. I appreciate the effort and sacrifices made in an academic way but there is no connection, nothing that rings true. My first memory of war was Iraq the first time around and I only remember being scared shitless that my dad might get sent out. There was then the fallout with Gulf War Syndrome which was just another screw you to the squaddies that got flung by the wayside. Given the way our servicemen have and do get treated I wonder at anyone who sees it as a life and I think that was what was meant in that case (end of the day, nobody made them join).

The days of conscripts fighting a just war are long gone, its not the same any more. Likewise I get **** off with the argument that this was all started by people fighting for our freedom. They weren't, it was just another live action game of Risk being fought between various cousins across Europe. WW1 is not something to be celebrated, it was a tragedy of the highest order that just showed the contempt the ruling classes had for those under their supposed protection.

His last point raises important issues~

All wars to this day are funded by the taxpayer (and cannon fodder recruited from the masses), but who actually benefits?

grum - Member

It's really not though is it, it's almost exclusively about remembering British soldiers or at least those who fought on our side, specifically in WWI and WWII.

I'm not sure exactly what you meant here but it's not at all specific to the world wars. These days most of the Legion's work is for current soldiers and veterans of recent wars.

I'm not really talking about what the legion does with the money, I'm talking about what the poppy symbolises in the media/public consciousness.

I don't wear a poppy anymore - largely because I got tired of people having a go at others who didn't wear one. The fact the poppy is only for British and Commonwealth troops also rankles. To my mind it has been hijacked somewhat by the spirit of war-mongery that has infected British politics since 2001.

As someone else mentioned they did, I have very often sat by a village or town war memorial and remembered the loss of so many lives. It is horrific to think of the waste. One of my more recent visits was to the German cemetery in Cannock. Just as moving...

The key phrase in rememberence for me is "Lest we forget." I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.

And no OP, I don't think you are wrong.

Eloquently put lemonysam.

Respect, thankfulness and gratitude. Whether one chooses to publicly show or not.

As for the OP, so long as the intent behind it was good, I have no issue with it. I have more issue with our political and corporate elite, wearing poppies and placing wreaths, who clearly profit from warmongering. Hypocrisy, pure and utter hypocrisy.

I disagree with poppies on a warplane. (To me) its to symbolise those lost to war, who didn't have a choice. The futility but in a modern sense those that join to defend but do not have a pick of what wars they may go on to serve in.

It's loosing its message when it's put on a pointy-pain thing.

The key phrase in rememberence for me is "Lest we forget." I have not forgotten. I remember most the hatred for war and loss of life that most veterans I met from two world wars expressed.

Waris generally just a waste of life and we rarely engage in a "noble war"

Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunately

If you want froth, buy a bloody cappuccino

(Having said that not a fan of the poppy on the jet - that is a bit like a chocolate topping)

I think Woppit had it early on.

Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst

The obvious answer is because it isn't that simple.

In its simplest form it is a chance to remember the british and commonwealth service men and women who have died. Many take it in that light an that seems like a fair thing to do.

But then it gets complicated.

What about civilians? And are we still so jingoistic that we can't spare a thought for enemy soldiers in the same situation?

Then sadly the rhetoric of war starts to creep in from some quarters with words and phrases like 'heroes' and 'fought to keep us free' which many find difficult to swallow.

Maybe it's time to rethink how we approach the act of remembrance as a nation?

No it is simple. It's a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice, no one is going to stop you. The more people who do take time to remember the less chance we have of repeating such horrors.
Turn up and pay your respects with the others. Your's may be to the military dead on one sides, all sides, their civilian support, the innocent victims of war both human, animal and environmental. No one can stop you.

No it is simple. It's a day of remembrance. Who you choose to remember is your choice,

You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn't simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Can't understand how a simple act of rememberance creates annual angst although this year seemed a bit calmer fortunatelyInteresting observation because the "event" itself seems to be growing, starting earlier, more focus, more lead-up. Mind you, the same was being said about halloween last week and there's an annual moan about Christmas, Easter and now Mothers/Fathers/pick-a-relative-of-your-choice day. Maybe it's just that we're all so "connected" these days that we're all seeing more things happening.

It does seem that there would be an understandable upswell in the size of armistice remembrance as we go through the centenary of WW1. I guess we can expect that to continue until 2018.

You can choose to approach it that way if you wish and I agree with you. However, it isn't simple as it is inextricably linked with the Royal British Legion whose focus is on British service men and women as is the focus of the vast majority of official events.

Yes the red poppy is the symbol of the RBL and the majority is therefore military. There has been an increase in the remembrance of others too, just watch the Whitehall Parade to see. The more people who attend these remembrance parades and show their respects to others the less military dominated it will become and people will become to understand that war effects all.