[Closed] Marie Colvin killed in Syria shelling.

I saw CH4 news last night and had a piece from her about the current situation in Homs. Sounded like a desperate situation and I did wonder what her chances of getting out of there alive were.

RIP.

What an utter, despicable cluster**** that whole situation is. The contrast to what happened in Libya is sickening.

But then, no-one liked Gadaffi did they, and Syria needs to be treated with kid gloves...

We were just talking about her last night after seeeing her on the news 😕

Steady on chaps, the STW line is that we should leave them well alone and let them get on with it (the reasoning being that we haven't invaded saudi arabia apparently). 😐

Heard her speaking on the World Service overnight.

Another death in an unfolding tragedy.

This was on Twitter yesterday;

[i]"Baba Amr is being exterminated. Do not tell me our hearts are with you because I know that. We need campaigns everywhere across the world and inside the country. People should protest in front of embassies and everywhere. Because in hours, there will be no more Baba Amr. And I expect this message to be my last." [/i]

Rami al-Sayed was killed a few hours later.

[url= http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/syrian-video-blogger-reportedly-killed-in-homs-as-shelling-continues/ ]http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/syrian-video-blogger-reportedly-killed-in-homs-as-shelling-continues/[/url]

At the risk of sounding unfeeling and uncaring, she did know what she was letting herself in for. Anyone considering a peaceful life and a death in an armchair at the age of 90 should not look to warzone reporting as a career. This is in no way to minimise the awfulness of the situation, but a few additional deaths, albeit of high-profile Westerners, among so many other doesn't change things for me.

I respect democracy, but I respect human life more. And although it goes against every tenet of proper democratic process and flies in the face of international law, somehow I can't help thinking that a very good sniper might sort this out with a single shot. Assad has demonstrated his utter lack of respect for human life and dignity, and very few people would cry if he were to have a very permanent lead-related headache.

nickf - Member

At the risk of sounding unfeeling and uncaring, she did know what she was letting herself in for.

I hate it when people trot this hackneyed old line out...

I'm imagining a world where everyone shared your viewpoint and we had no emergency services, coastguards, military, RNLI/mountain rescue volunteers, adventurers/explorers, anyone involved in any remotely dangerous sports and everyone worked on one massive IT support team, all repeatedly asking each other for their job number until the end of time.

At the risk of sounding unfeeling and uncaring, she did know what she was letting herself in for

It's this that makes her sacrifice all the more tragic and inspiring. I think I understand where you're coming from Nick; the sentiments expressed on this thread will span the whole gamut but the key issue is that you cannot have democracy without a free press and a free press has to report on situations like that in Syria in order to be relevant to a democracy.

My argument is that free living countries need armies and they need a free press and most of the time the people serving in those roles do so voluntarily, but if they lose their life doing it, then democracy owes them a debt.

The soldier defends democracy in a war; the journalist represents it.

RIP and hats off to anyone willing to go into a war zone to give the world the true story of what is going on. It is one thing to go in armed to the teeth, its another to go into a war zone armed only with a camera or microphone.

RIP and thank you.

The soldier defends democracy in a war; the journalist represents it.

Nice sentiment, but war pits soldier against soldier, are both sides representing democracy? And journalism is frequently just part of the propaganda machine for whatever country they are reporting back to, even a fair and honest journalist is frequently controlled in what they see.

even a fair and honest journalist is frequently controlled in what they see.

If they are being shot at chances are they are seeing what the soldiers are seeing.

Look at the images that came out of Vietnam and the US population reacted.

Celebrate a life less ordinary.

If it were not for the likes of Marie, scumbags like President Ass-Hat and his thugs would avoid the exposure to the rest of us, of their inhumanity.

"Religion Poisons Everything".

So it's true. I'd heard the rumours earlier. Sad. A great reporter.

If it wasn't for people like her, we wouldn't know the reality of what's going on in Syria (which is nothing less than a revival of the 1982 approach to uprisings - kill them all).

And I still don't get how this is materially different from Libya. Where TF is Middle East Peace Envoy, A. Blair, in all of this. Stand up and be counted man.

I hate it when people trot this hackneyed old line out...

You're missing my point, or perhaps I'm not explaining my point of view adequately. It's terrible that she's died, of course it is, but she knew and accepted the risks before she went in. The people of Homs never had that choice, did they? So it's their deaths that I find even more shocking.

I salute Marie Colvin's courage and know that know that I don't have the balls to do what she did. I'm very grateful that there are people out there prepared to do the things I am not.

dont hear much about the rebels in afghanistan/****stan
so we want fair balanced reporting on rebels but not terrorists? and who decided that.

RIP Marie Colvin - brave and determined, we rely on your sort.

Let's not forget the French photojournalist Remi Ochlik killed in the same attack. Some outstanding stuff on his website - http://www.ochlik.com/

Won a World Press Photo award for this - http://www.worldpressphoto.org/photo/2012remiochlikgns1-al?gallery=2634

Steady on chaps, the STW line is that we should leave them well alone and let them get on with it (the reasoning being that we haven't invaded saudi arabia apparently).

🙄

The reality is probably that we are not invading Syria as they aren't a very big oil producer and there's not a lot in it for us (plus their links with Russia and China).

I'm not sure that anyone here would argue against sending in UN peacekeepers - just people aren't in favour of yet another war/invasion for some strange reason.

I'm not sure that anyone here would argue against sending in UN peacekeepers - just people aren't in favour of yet another war/invasion for some strange reason.

Roll eyes all you want grum. There is a thread on here where this argument has taken place, and a few notables did exactly that.

just people aren't in favour of yet another war/invasion for some strange reason.

Think you hit the nail on the head in your post - they're great mates with China and Russia - and no-one, not even good ol US, wants to upset them.

RIP Marie and Remi.

I'm not sure that anyone here would argue against sending in UN peacekeepers - just people aren't in favour of yet another war/invasion for some strange reason.

Roll eyes all you want grum. There is a thread on here where this argument has taken place, and a few notables did exactly that.

Really? I must have missed that.

TandemJeremy - Member

So - should we intervene in syria? No
Were those countries right to vote against the resolution? yes

Why?

1) 'cos we abused the UN resolution on libya to overthrow the governemnt and have ruined a country in doing so clearly cannot be trusted.
2) other countries - saudi Arabia for example have similar human rights records and we don't do anything there

1) 'cos we abused the UN resolution on libya to overthrow the governemnt

This is a pretty good point though. And the people we installed in Libya are hardly the shining beacons of human rights and democracy we were apparently hoping for. I would suggest this thread isn't really the place to have this 'debate' however - hence the eye rolling.

And where was the proposal to send in UN peackeepers?

2) other countries - saudi Arabia for example have similar human rights records and we don't do anything there

Ah, the do everything everywhere or do nothing anywhere argument.

I'm not sure that anyone here would argue against sending in UN peacekeepers

This is a pretty good point though.

Oh dear. It's a shame that Syrian families are going to pay for what happened in Lybia. Bit heartless isn't it?

And where was the proposal to send in UN peackeepers?

So - should we intervene in syria? No

Not just Libya but Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc.

TandemJeremy - Member

And where was the proposal to send in UN peackeepers?

If there was real concrete proposal to put in a proper multilateral UN force under UN control then I would favour it.

Oh dear. It's a shame that Syrian families are going to pay for what happened in Lybia. Bit heartless isn't it?

🙄

So you're suggesting that we shouldn't learn any lessons from the Libyan 'success' - where we stretched the UN mandate beyond all credibility in pushing hard for regime change to get rid of the 'evil' Gaddafi and install a new regime committed to democracy and human rights.

Be careful what you wish for.

Armed militia groups in Libya that formed along tribal lines after the ouster of the Moammar Gadhafi regime have turned on one another and now rule most of the country, torturing their opponents with impunity, Amnesty International says.

It's not just the revenge attacks or tribe-on-tribe feuding, but the gross human rights abuses that go unchallenged by Libya's new government, CBC's David Common reports from New York.

When Amnesty International investigators visited detention facilities, inmates told of rape by guards and beatings for hours with whips, cables, metal chains, wooden sticks and electric shocks with live wires, Common reported.

Militia members didn't bother stopping one beating even when Amnesty's team arrived, saying inmates who had been ordered released would not be.

At least 12 detainees have died since September after torture, Amnesty said in a report released Wednesday evening.

"Their bodies were covered in bruises, wounds and cuts and some had had nails pulled off," the group said.

"There's torture, extrajudicial executions, rape of both men and women," Navi Pillay, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, said on Jan. 27.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/02/16/libya-torture-amnesty.html

Flippin eck. There's more about turns on this thread than at the military tattoo. I'm surprised you still know what direction you're facing.

The whole Arab spring is a desperate mess, you get rid of one despot only to install another / others. It's a god awful situation in the middle east. There's no justice for the common man.

Flippin eck. There's more about turns on this thread than at the military tattoo. I'm surprised you still know what direction you're facing.

Dear dear, does everything have to be very simple and black and white for you to be able to keep up?

Dear dear, does everything have to be very simple and black and white for you to be able to keep up?

The whole Arab spring is a desperate mess, you get rid of one despot only to install another / others. It's a god awful situation in the middle east. There's no justice for the common man.

You need to think about the Arab mindset. Its not about democracy but strength and dominance.

Ah, deflection. Making it personal to hide your embarrassment. Well done, you should be proud of yourself.
I expected more. I should have known better.

I'm not remotely embarrassed. I hate to break it to you but these situations aren't simple, with clear good guys and bad guys and obvious 'right' courses of action.

Again I would suggest this thread isn't really the place to have this 'debate' - did you not get it all out in the other thread?

wrecker - I still want to know who was against the deployment of UN peacekeepers?

Fair enough grum. A bit of balance is a good thing BUT Syria either get our help or not. We go or we don't, and us deliberating over what happened in Libya won't help them.
People should really support their black and white statements such as;

So - should we intervene in syria? No

We - in the context of the UK/ US / Nato.

wwaswas your vid link is relevant to the topic but I've asked for it to be removed. No offence meant.

We - in the context of the UK/ US / Nato.

LOL!!!!!
The context was a UN resolution, so quite clearly related to the UN (you even mentioned the UN in your post).
Come on TJ, show some humility for a change.

no one liked Gadaffi?

And journalism is frequently just part of the propaganda machine for whatever country they are reporting back to, even a fair and honest journalist is frequently controlled in what they see.

Journalists can be restricted in what they see but not usually what they report. At least not here where we have a magnificent free press of which we are rightly proud.

The intervention being talked of was similar to Libya.

it may have escaped your notice but the UN does not do interventions of the type you want - for good reason.

Nice. Really nice.

A thread which should have been respectful of the death of two people doing a damnned fine and damned hard job in damned dangerous circumstances, all to make the world a better informed place descends in to another big hitter ARMAGEDDON! thread.

Sad really.

RIP to two brave people doing a job that few of us keyboard bound folk could even begin to understand.

And to all the rest? Hmm, well?

Yer right CFH - I shouldn't have risen to it.

It just gets my goat when people distort what I post.

[i]wwaswas your vid link is relevant to the topic but I've asked for it to be removed. No offence meant.[/i]

I understand and I did think twice before posting it. It said a lot to me but was on the link I posted earlier so I guess no need to shove it in peoples faces.

The usual descent into bickering is far less respectful of the lives lost, imo, and should equally well be moderated off the thread.

.

I've heard, as far as military deployment is concerned, CMD is keeping his powder dry for another potential flashpoint that might go off soon

Iran? No
The Falklands? No

Re-invading those uppity buggers north of the border, after 'independence' 😀

On a serious note. Its terrible to hear about her death. There was a documentary made a few years back about war correspondents. basically, they're all mad as badgers!!! There was a cameraman being interviewed about Beirut. There was no running water, and gunfights going on in the street outside, but they could still order Champagne and Cocaine to be delivered to their room. Which they did

binners there was a great doc about an American war photographer - http://www.shootingrobertking.com/home.php

Basically came across as incredibly naive - almost child like. Yet somehow survived and made a career for himself.

A thread which should have been respectful of the death of two people doing a damnned fine and damned hard job in damned dangerous circumstances, all to make the world a better informed place descends in to another big hitter ARMAGEDDON! thread.

Fair comments CFH, although there's more at risk than a few journalists. 2 (brave) dead Journalists vs how many dead Syrians? How many more? The future of a great many families and even a whole country could be at stake here.
TJ has just bent his comments to suit. Shame.

I remember reading one of the John Simpson books and a family had been attacked by the christian militia in some hell hole. The father of the family was loading his injured family into a car to try and get help.
All the while John Simpson is asking questions and the photographer has his head in the car taking pictures.
At that point I wondered how you could think that asking questions is more important than trying to help.Surely its a natural human response? I doubt the piece even made the news if someone got caught shagging his secetary.

wrecker - Member

Fair comments CFH, although there's more at risk than a few journalists. 2 (brave) dead Journalists vs how many dead Syrians? How many more? The future of a great many families and even a whole country could be at stake here.
TJ has just bent his comments to suit. Shame.

Brilliant, you were the one who came on and wilfully (I hope) misrepresented people's position on the other thread. TJ came and clarified but you're still not willing to try and understand.

You're talking Bollocks.

If we can just get over the keyboard 'how dare you twist my words' outrage for a moment;

Sunday Times have dropped the paywall on her final report;

[url= http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/news/article874796.ece ]http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/news/article874796.ece[/url]

So now the Syrian government is saying it's all their own fault they got killed by a shell fired by government forces, because they entered the country illegally 🙄

Death penalty for illegal immigrants anybody?

And remember, no outside interference is allowed unless the Russian Politburo and the Central Committe of the Chinese Communist Party say so.